Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 19th, 2006, 7:01 pm #11

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????


Instruments are not NOW an issue at Madison but it WAS an issue at the JUBILEE founder's DRIVING PURPOSE. Rubel Shelly tryied the mantra intended to DISSOCIATE or drive people into schizophrenia by almost weekly connecting the ANTI-instrumental people to "fire bombers of restaurants, muggers of ladies wearing furs" and about ten of the most hostile RACA words that can be invented. I have reviews of that flood which continued for a long time but I think that Rubel decided that he was caught. Madison began the great FLYING LEAP through thin air which intended to get THE PROPERTY PAID FOR and the OUT the fact that you had been BAITED AND SWITCHED. Concerned Members caught them MID AIR and they ran out of steam and pancaked in the mud flats. Max was a bit slicker and probably had more PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENT POWER by claimiing that he had a VISION to add instruments and take the name of CHRIST off the sign. Well, we KNOW where that vision came from as His Cosmic Christmas is rehashed SUN WORSHIP. Rubel Shelly proposed thinking of the<font color=red> S.O.N.</font> GOD as the<font color=red> S.U.N.</font> god.

This was the SCHEME of the "merry band of men" who dubbed themselves CHANGE AGENTS and agreed on a set of CODE WORDS to fool the fools. Minimal Christians call it LYING but these people are not related to the Christian System by birth or association. Max made the PUBLISHED promise that the instruments would JUST be in another room using SOFT STRINGS. He also used the Farmer's Branch White Paper to preach his THEOLOGY. They lie about every musical term and name of instrument.

When you see people use GRADUALISM they are using the world's oldest scheme called Boiling Donnie's Frog and making them love the warm bath.

There is not the remotest possibility that they are Christians or even hold minimal Christian ethics. Charles Spurgeon wrote about anyone who would preach and subvert and he could not find a descriptive term to define them. The are WORSE than Hitler because Hitler could only burn your body.

The story of Jubal and the Lamech family is well documented in contemporaneous literature beginning with Babylon tablets dating a thousand or more years before Moses. The task of Moses was to repeat how evil people turned to the arts and crafts as MAGICAL devices to fool the fools and steal their money.

Israel had sinned because of musical idolatry and God gave the Law to legislate for the lawless as the went into Canaan without destroying the Canaanites who were so wholly polluted that they could never turn from sense stimulation to intellectual. I will return to that story and show how Satan used a full year while the Lynn Anderson Navigating the Winds of Change allows about 10 years to make the transition, threaten the opposing OWNERS and take control. I say that the whole Bible makes it the MARK OF THE BEAST where ZOE is the BEAST AND FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE. She USURPS the role of the SON as the true LOGOS.

That story both parable and reality was articulated by Plato who warned that you shouldn't be diverted one way or another by those introducing new forms of music but rather be concerned that "those changing the music are actually and deceitfully changing the laws of society."
  • <font color=blue>"music and gymnastic (must) be preserved in their original form, and no innovation made. They must do their utmost to maintain them intact. And when anyone says that mankind must regard...
    • The newest song which the singers have, (Odyssey)...
    "they will be afraid that he may be praising, not some new songs, but a new kind of song; and this ought not to be praised, or conceived to be the meaning of the poet; for any musical innovation is full of danger in the whole State, and ought to be prohibited.

    "So Damon tells me, and I can quite believe him; he says that when modes of music change, the fundamental laws of the State always change with them..."

    • "Then," I said, "our guardians must lay the foundations of their fortress in music?"

      "Yes," I replied, 'in the form of amusement: and at first sight it always appears harmless'." (The Great Dialogs, Plato, Classic edition, p. 312)
Therefore, history knows that these people are not just jazzing up the worship song with contemporary musical styles: they are intent on inculcating a new set of laws to replace the liberty of the Words of Christ. Unfortunately, these new laws are as old as the tower of Babel and the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

This is why trying to shift people's traditional values about worship and especially about music can do more harm than good. The materials of the First and Second Great Awakening prove that "paradigm shifts" are more than many can take. In fact, one of the common features was the belief that those being revived should commit suicide. Judas tried it and took the ONLY way out: He hanged himself and slowly twisted in the wind until he rotted and dropped. Max Lucado thinks that Lucifer (Zoe) tried to prevent God from sending Jesus. There fore, God had to SLIP Jesus past Lucifer as a VIAL OF LIGHT which passed through Mary without TAINT according to the GNOSTICS and SUN WORSHIPERS under APOLLO and His MUSES which is another word for LOCUSTS. Evil people.

APOLLO is Abaddon or Apollyon who unleashes his MUSES as the instrumental musical worship team as the end-time fulfilment of the BABYLON WHORE in Revelation 18. The muses John is writing about to keep the Lucado's from being saved are the LOCUSTS. They have Scorpion Stingers in their tails and in the Classics put you to sleep in the noon-day sun and the STING YOU TO DEATH or MARK you.</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 20th, 2006, 7:08 pm #12

A number of elders from the Hillcrest Church of Christ also made the obligitory journey to Saddleback a few years ago to learn the "growing" secret of Rick Warren's success. He has been so successful that it is reported that Rick has offered $340 million for the New Orleans Saints. Hillcrest is advertising an Acappella concert in its February 19, 2006, bulletin. Check it out.
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Bud,

I have checked it out—here’s the link and message:
  • http://www.hillcrestonline.com/handlers ... 0912021767

    <font size=4>Acappella Concert</font>

    Praise in song

    Acappella will be in concert at Southern Hills Church of Christ on Saturday, February 25th at 7:00 p.m. Tickets are $7 in advance and $10 at the door. For more information, please call (325-692-2670).
Here’s also an advertisement in the Madison Marcher:
  • http://www.madisoncofc.org/Marcher/pdfs/01-11-06.pdf
    http://www.acappella.org/xchanged.htm

    <font size=4>“Quiet the Stones” Benefit Concert</font>

    March 11, 2006

    The Madison Student Ministry . . .

    The first concert, “Quiet the Stones,” will be in the auditorium on Saturday, March 11, at 7 p.m. and feature a cappella singing groups, Acappella and Durant. Masters of Ceremony will be Cory Fleming of the Nashville Kats and our own (U-Turn) Lavern Vivio. Tickets will be on sale soon — $9 for balcony seats and $12 for floor seats. Please invite family and friends to attend this concert. If you would be willing to display a poster advertising this concert at your place of business, please contact the Student Ministry office at 860-3252.

    The date of the second concert has not been set at this time. Thank you for your support of our Student Ministry missions.
Let us know if you have any link addresses to the schedule of events by Acappella in BIG business in the name of religion—specifically using “religious” MUSIC in its business endeavors.

Donnie</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 20th, 2006, 10:58 pm #13

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????


#3 in Instrumental music
Their gradualism mentor, Adolph and Hegel would say:

http://www.piney.com/mkv2ch06.html

"The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.
  • The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

    In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.
But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual, it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps. The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop,
  • absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.
And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small,
  • he steps for the first time into a mass meeting and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him, when, as a SEEKER, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)
    • he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm,
    when the visible success and agreement of thousands confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -
    • then he himself has succumbed to the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'
    The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual. The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced: he has become a link in the community.
The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular
  • it must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois simpletons who know everything better,
    but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state including their own existence and the rule of their class.
Oh, yes, they are very, very clever, they know everything, understand everything - only one thing they did not understand, how to prevent the German people from falling into the arms of Marxism. In this they miserably and wretchedly failed, so that their present conceit is only arrogance, which in the form of pride, as everyone knows, always thrives on the same tree as stupidity.

If today these people attribute no special value to the spoken word, they do so, it must be added, only because, thank the Lord, they have become thoroughly convinced by now of the ineffectualness of their own speechmaking."

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 21st, 2006, 10:39 pm #14

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????


The proponents of the Change Movement are so persistent and adamant on having instruments in worship that they find every possible way to “justify” them. Here are some of their more convenient “justifications”:
  • 1. The Old Covenant commanded instruments; therefore we will have them in our Christian worship.
  • 2. Jesus worshiped in the Temple with instruments; therefore we will have them.
  • 3. The Bible says all Scripture is “God-breathed”; therefore, since God breathed instruments in the Old Testament, our worship will use them.
  • 4. “Revelations” says that angels play harps in heaven. The Lord’s prayer says “thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven.” Therefore, it is the Lord’s will in heaven that we play harps (meaning musical instruments) on earth in our Christian worship.
  • 5. The Psalms do not fall under the auspices of the Old Covenant, because they are not one of the Books of Law (first five books of the Old Testament), and because they are poetry. Since Christians do not follow the Law of Moses, and since the Psalms have instruments, our worship will use them.
  • 6. Instruments are mentioned in Psalm 150; therefore, our worship will use them.
  • 7. The New Testament neither authorizes nor condemns instruments as such; therefore, our worship will use them.
  • 8. Using instruments will not keep us from heaven. Rejecting instruments will not get us to heaven.
The list could go on, but it illustrates the mindset of the Change Movement. Now here’s what this Movement conveniently forgets or ignores. I’ll take each item above in order:
  • 1. Christ laid the Old Covenant and everything in it to rest and instituted the New Covenant with His death, burial, and resurrection.
  • 2. Jesus was also bound to follow the Mosaic Law while he lived in the flesh, until he laid it to rest with His death, burial, and resurrection.
  • 3. God also breathed the New Covenant, which supplanted the Old Covenant, and everything in it.
  • 4. To take a phrase from the Lord’s prayer and by a circuitous route apply it to angels playing harps and thence to us is to take Scripture out of context. It’s also an abuse of Scripture. The context of “thy will be done on earth as (it is) in heaven” is a spiritual plea that the will of each person on earth conform exactly to the will of the Father in heaven.
  • 5 and 6. Although the Psalms are not among the first five books of the Old Testament or Books of the Law, they nevertheless espouse principles found within the Mosaic Law; hence, the Psalms fall under the auspices of the Mosaic Law. Psalms 27 and 116 both cite examples of making animal sacrifices to God, acts of worship and praise which are commanded in the Mosaic Law. Psalm 150 cites praising God with instruments. Since the Psalms espouse principles of the Mosaic Law, those who justify instruments with the Psalms must not neglect sacrificing to God with burnt offerings, lest they be guilty of neglecting the entire Mosaic Law. After all, Gal. 5:1-6 states that those who keep part of the Mosaic Law are bound to keep ALL of it. But those who keep any part of the Mosaic Law make Christ of no effect.
  • 7. The New Testament specifies that vocal music is to be used in worship. We have no authority to add anything to or remove anything from the NT’s specifications for worship. And singing and making melody in the heart to the Lord IS worship, whether it’s done alone or in the company of other Christians. If the NT does not specify instruments, then who are we to second-guess the NT and add them?
  • 8. To say that adding instruments will not keep us from heaven or that rejecting them will not get us to heaven is abominable arrogance and a good example of “selective doctrine.” It is man-contrived. How do we know one way or the other? Do we have the authority to place importance on those commands that please us and slight those which do not? Christ said for us to observe all things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV), which includes the Gospels and His words through the apostolic writers. Our role is to trust God’s New Testament enough to do what it says and not speculate about what is not written there concerning matters of worship.
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Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 25th, 2006, 6:49 am #15

Why don't we just throw out the "Old Testament" You say we conventiently pick verses, but you do the same in your "exegetical" attempts. Where did you get your education in such matters? This is elementary theology. God is not that tricky!

I defended these same arguments in my childhood and then I received an education...and gave up my checklist theology relationship and it set me free. Hallelujah!

By the way the "Church Growth Schemes" and slow moving in and take over has not been some methodical plan, it is the Spirit leading people. I know that is foreign to you because the Spirit went back to Heaven and left some Book that we conveniently canonized and now call the Bible.

P.S. Please tell Donnie to leave Madison if he hates it so much.

Thanks
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 25th, 2006, 2:36 pm #16

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>You (yet to unashamedly and boldly identify yourself) and others in the Change Army—conveniently pick verses from picked Old Testament books (Psalms but not Leviticus) to justify your borrowed musical and other doctrines.

You and others in the Change Army have gotten your advanced Ch.D. degree(s) from the University of Church Intrusion, specializing in Tricky Strategies and Schemes.

Go ahead and use your childhood experiences to justify your motives. Blame it all on your “dunking-only-to-get-wet-but-not-in-order-to-have-your-sins-forgiven-in-the-blood-of-Christ.”

A testament is a covenant—you very well know that!!!! The Old Testament (Covenant) is HISTORY and A HISTORY. We study and learn from “history.” While there are eternal principles contained in the Old Testament—the New Testament is replete with instructions, commands and admonitions for Christians. I realize you despise God’s truth revealed in the New Covenant because you do not comprehend that Christian living and discipleship is not easy. Yes, you detest the NT checklist, but yet you’re adding more to it from the OT.

We are commanded [that’s right—this one is one of the many, many “checklist” items] to “study … rightly dividing the word of truth.”

Here’s the truth [and further explanation from your borrowed theology is unnecessary here] found in many passages, in Hebrews 8:
  • [6] But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    [7] For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
    [8] For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
    [9] Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
    [10] For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
    [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
You’re correct—God is not tricky! You and your cohorts are!

Now … you are questioning the integrity of the Bible that is replete with God’s truth and will for His people? Is this what I’m hearing from you now?

No, I do not hate Madison—and BTW, I have approved your post and I am aware of your “request.” You are the one who hates the church you have basically left—but who refuses to leave it alone.

Donnie</font>
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PPB
PPB

February 26th, 2006, 2:24 am #17

I'm just curious. Luey, Concerned Member, etc...

Why did the original Churches NOT use instruments? Why did they consider them wrong?

Before you try and go around those two questions, remember, there is VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence that the early Christians did NOT use them and found them sinful. So don't try and twist it or go around it. I dare you to answer it honestly.

Can you? Can you explain why it was still wrong for generations after Christ died? Can you explain why churches, that had met and studied WITH the Apostles, were against instruments during their assembly?

Would you agree that the Apostles would have the most knowledge of how the assembly was to act? They were speaking for Christ and God, where they not?

Also, remember Paul was Jewish. Why did he not allow these first churches to use instruments if he had used them in his Jewish faith (which, some of you have inaccurate info about Judaism and instrumental music)?

And if you don't care what the first Churches did or did not do, why? Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?




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Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 26th, 2006, 3:16 am #18

PPB,

Usage of Instruments.

Depends on which church you are talking about...The Jewish Church (Peter's) or the Gentile Church (Paul's)
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just me
just me

February 26th, 2006, 3:19 am #19

I'm just curious. Luey, Concerned Member, etc...

Why did the original Churches NOT use instruments? Why did they consider them wrong?

Before you try and go around those two questions, remember, there is VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence that the early Christians did NOT use them and found them sinful. So don't try and twist it or go around it. I dare you to answer it honestly.

Can you? Can you explain why it was still wrong for generations after Christ died? Can you explain why churches, that had met and studied WITH the Apostles, were against instruments during their assembly?

Would you agree that the Apostles would have the most knowledge of how the assembly was to act? They were speaking for Christ and God, where they not?

Also, remember Paul was Jewish. Why did he not allow these first churches to use instruments if he had used them in his Jewish faith (which, some of you have inaccurate info about Judaism and instrumental music)?

And if you don't care what the first Churches did or did not do, why? Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?



PPB, Excellent point and I feel one of the strongest arguments against instrumental music. Regardless of what happened in the Old Testament, instruments are so obviously absent from worship in the early church.

Donnie, you had said in an earlier post - "The instances in which the book of Psalms mentions musical instruments—was David in the midst of the congregation?" That brings up a context question that I've not seen in any of the forums (though I've not gone back through the ages). How does the context of Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 make the "speaking/singing to one another" verses apply to worship or the assembly? Everytime I look at those chapters they seem to apply to how the Christian lives day to day. I have the hardest time relating them to worship.

Hope this is a good place to ask this. Any helps? Thanks so much.
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Amazed
Amazed

February 26th, 2006, 3:24 am #20

I'm just curious. Luey, Concerned Member, etc...

Why did the original Churches NOT use instruments? Why did they consider them wrong?

Before you try and go around those two questions, remember, there is VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence that the early Christians did NOT use them and found them sinful. So don't try and twist it or go around it. I dare you to answer it honestly.

Can you? Can you explain why it was still wrong for generations after Christ died? Can you explain why churches, that had met and studied WITH the Apostles, were against instruments during their assembly?

Would you agree that the Apostles would have the most knowledge of how the assembly was to act? They were speaking for Christ and God, where they not?

Also, remember Paul was Jewish. Why did he not allow these first churches to use instruments if he had used them in his Jewish faith (which, some of you have inaccurate info about Judaism and instrumental music)?

And if you don't care what the first Churches did or did not do, why? Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?



What is the "VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence" that the 1st century church didn't use instruments?

PPB, I am curious.
Why does your church use hymnals? Why don't all the women cover their heads? Why do you use a pinch of cracker and a tiny cup of Welch's for the Lord's SUPPER? Why do you have a church building? Why does your church allow women to put up postings like your last one? Why do you sit for an hour Sunday morning singing acapella and get in your car and turn on the radio to instrumental devil-music? Why does someone get up and make announcements during the assembly?


"Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?"


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