i was just surfing for c of c and found this

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

May 17th, 2004, 5:48 am #31

I, too, was searching "Church of Christ" links, and came upon this site. It matters not what my intentions were with my searches. If I was to search for "Satan" it would not make me a believer or a follower, so there is no need to jump to conclusions. I will pray for all members of your congregation, your families and your friends. I will pray that you find the Way, the Truth and the Light. I will pray that your in-fighting will be replaced by truth, that your proof texts are better understood, and that your intolerance is replaced with the love of Jesus.

You are a non-denominational church - yet claim to be the only church where the members will go to heaven.

You are not saved unless a CoC minister baptizes you - yet there is never any mention of this in the Bible.

You observe the Lord's Supper every Sunday - yet bread was not broken until after midnight, making it Monday morning that the Lord's Supper occured. Additionally, Passover is only observed once per year!

Works = salvation. The CoC claims to have the members that will go to heaven, yet you do not know for sure if you are 'saved.'

Please consider your ways. Stringed instruments are not the enemy of God, and you will never be able to prove that in the Bible.

Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. ...and may God have mercy on all of our souls.

There is no need to respond, as I will most likely never happen upon this site again.

God bless us all.
To another surfer,

I wish you had come up with original ideas. The following expressions are commonly used by the change agents and their disciples:
  • … Pray that your in-fighting will be replaced by truth.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: The truth of the matter is that the change agents have added to the New Testament truth certain creeds and beliefs which they have imitated or borrowed from their denominational neighbors.]</font>
  • … That your proof texts are better understood.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Quoting scriptural references that disprove the change agents’ borrowed denominational tenets is strongly opposed by them. Change agents are often too willing to take passages out of context just so they can align themselves with denominationalism.] </font>
  • … Intolerance is replaced with the love of Jesus.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: The love of Jesus, my friend, is not the issue. New Testament Christians should be intolerant toward false, human doctrines.] </font>
  • … A non-denominational church - yet claim to be the only church where the members will go to heaven.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Nice try! Going to heaven is not by groups or organizations. Only each INDIVIDUAL believer: (1) whose redemption in the blood of the Lamb was obtained by being immersed with Christ in baptism and (2) who has persevered and remained faithful to the end … will receive the crown of life.] </font>
  • … Not saved unless a CoC minister baptizes you - yet there is never any mention of this in the Bible.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Hmmm! The apostle Peter should have baptized me, eh? You’re correct on who does the baptizing should not matter—but where did you get your idea? I know of no member of the church who believes or makes that assumption—that a “CofC minister” must do the baptizing. However, it is the truth that redemption is not obtained prior to baptism.] </font>
  • … You observe the Lord's Supper every Sunday - yet bread was not broken until after midnight, making it Monday morning that the Lord's Supper.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Acts 20:7 is no speculation. “The disciples came together to break bread” upon THE first day of THE week. That Peter continued his speech until midnight does not change the day “when” the disciples came together to break bread. Your speculation about “Monday” certainly does not allow for the observance of the Lord’s Supper on Thursday or Saturday, either.] </font>
  • … Works = salvation. The CoC claims to have the members that will go to heaven, yet you do not know for sure if you are 'saved.'

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: It is clearly stated in Romans 3:[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. The initial redemption is assuredly for PAST SINS and (you’re correct) good works were not required to obtain that salvation. After that, then what? Philippians 2:12—“Wherefore, my beloved, … work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” James 2:17, 24 ,26—“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. … Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. … For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Revelation 2:10—“… be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”] </font>
  • Please consider your ways. Stringed instruments are not the enemy of God, and you will never be able to prove that in the Bible. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. ...and may God have mercy on all of our souls.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: This forum is full of articles and discussions dealing with MUSICAL WORSHIP and musical instruments. I’m sure you believe that the Lord was speaking to the dead instruments to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord.”] </font>
  • There is no need to respond, as I will most likely never happen upon this site again.

    <font color=blue>[RESPONSE: There’s some hope in “most likely never” … so, please respond by saying that you did not visit this site again; otherwise, we would assume that you had. Oops! Is the preceding statement making sense?] </font>
Donnie
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Anonymous
Anonymous

May 17th, 2004, 2:57 pm #32

I, too, was searching "Church of Christ" links, and came upon this site. It matters not what my intentions were with my searches. If I was to search for "Satan" it would not make me a believer or a follower, so there is no need to jump to conclusions. I will pray for all members of your congregation, your families and your friends. I will pray that you find the Way, the Truth and the Light. I will pray that your in-fighting will be replaced by truth, that your proof texts are better understood, and that your intolerance is replaced with the love of Jesus.

You are a non-denominational church - yet claim to be the only church where the members will go to heaven.

You are not saved unless a CoC minister baptizes you - yet there is never any mention of this in the Bible.

You observe the Lord's Supper every Sunday - yet bread was not broken until after midnight, making it Monday morning that the Lord's Supper occured. Additionally, Passover is only observed once per year!

Works = salvation. The CoC claims to have the members that will go to heaven, yet you do not know for sure if you are 'saved.'

Please consider your ways. Stringed instruments are not the enemy of God, and you will never be able to prove that in the Bible.

Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. ...and may God have mercy on all of our souls.

There is no need to respond, as I will most likely never happen upon this site again.

God bless us all.
Remember that Israel's elders fired God an demanded a king, kingdom and worship like the nations. God picked kings to lead them into captivity and death: the sentence imposed at Mount Sinai when they practiced musical idolatry and LOST The Book of the Covenant.

Secondly, the Psalms were poetic records of their history. The Psalms were used "for our learning" and never in collective "worship."

The joyful noise is:

Qowl (h6933) kole; or qol kole; from an unused root mean. to call aloud; a voice or sound: - / aloud, bleating, crackling, cry (/ out), fame, lightness, lowing, noise, / hold peace, [pro-] claim, proclamation, / sing, sound, / spark, thunder (-ing), voice, / yell

You are free to do that 167 hours a week: sure even strip naked like David to make yourself vile but don't try it in "church" or you will appear CHARISMATIC which parses to "homosexual" even as all of the MUSICA or CANTSUS parses to MAGICA or soothsaying or EXEGETING or HERMENETING to, like Pharisees SILENCE THE VOICE OF GOD so you can PLEASURE yourself in violation of Romans 15.

Numbers 10:7 But when the congregation (Qahal=synagogue) is to be gathered together, ye shall blow, but ye shall not sound an alarm.

The Alarm is:

Ruwa (h7321)roo-ah'; a prim. root; to mar (espec. by breaking); fig. to split the ears (with sound), i. e. shout (for alarm or joy): - blow an alarm, cry (alarm, aloud, out), destroy, make a joyful noise, smart, shout (for joy), sound an alarm, triumph.

All of the MUSICA or CANTUS words speak of creating unholy PANIC to grind you into bits so that you will GIVE TITHES AND OFFERINGS. There is NO example of music in history which attributes anything mental or spiritual. Too bad you guys put your trust in the MINIMS when the MAXUMS define you of ANOTHER TRIBE.

The SYNAGOGUE existed as the "church" in the wilderness and it was NEVER called for charismatic, gone mad worship. Assemblies were called, as Jesus told you, to COME LEARN OF ME.

The JUDAS BAND were musical assasins: Judas Sicarri. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would not TRIUMPH OVER Jesus because he would be dead:

Ps.41:11 By this I know that thou favourest me, because mine enemy doth not triumph over me.

The JUDAS BAG was for "carrying the mouthpieces or reeds of wind instruments." He tried to keep his hands clean, get paid and still ASSINATE JESUS.

The Dead Sea Scrolls show that Psalm 41 means that the WARRIOR LEVITES (noise makers) would MOCK Jesus right up to the cross. Like the king/queen of Babylon who went back into Sheol with his/her harps and harpists to rot on a bed of maggots, Jewish history knows of NOW harp (or harpist) which survived out of thousands and thousands: they were consumed with fire probably just as will the HARLOT church and "her" music and musicians as spelled out in Revelation 18.

If you do that in the presence of a Holy God where worship means to "give heed to God's word" with reverence and Godly fear you are in trouble:
  • <font color=red>FOR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE</font>
You try that in a classroom of a HUMAN TEACHER and see how fast they can get the booby wagon for you. Can you really hold God in more contempt?

Ken



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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 17th, 2004, 8:21 pm #33

To another surfer,

I wish you had come up with original ideas. The following expressions are commonly used by the change agents and their disciples:
  • … Pray that your in-fighting will be replaced by truth.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: The truth of the matter is that the change agents have added to the New Testament truth certain creeds and beliefs which they have imitated or borrowed from their denominational neighbors.]</font>
  • … That your proof texts are better understood.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Quoting scriptural references that disprove the change agents’ borrowed denominational tenets is strongly opposed by them. Change agents are often too willing to take passages out of context just so they can align themselves with denominationalism.] </font>
  • … Intolerance is replaced with the love of Jesus.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: The love of Jesus, my friend, is not the issue. New Testament Christians should be intolerant toward false, human doctrines.] </font>
  • … A non-denominational church - yet claim to be the only church where the members will go to heaven.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Nice try! Going to heaven is not by groups or organizations. Only each INDIVIDUAL believer: (1) whose redemption in the blood of the Lamb was obtained by being immersed with Christ in baptism and (2) who has persevered and remained faithful to the end … will receive the crown of life.] </font>
  • … Not saved unless a CoC minister baptizes you - yet there is never any mention of this in the Bible.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Hmmm! The apostle Peter should have baptized me, eh? You’re correct on who does the baptizing should not matter—but where did you get your idea? I know of no member of the church who believes or makes that assumption—that a “CofC minister” must do the baptizing. However, it is the truth that redemption is not obtained prior to baptism.] </font>
  • … You observe the Lord's Supper every Sunday - yet bread was not broken until after midnight, making it Monday morning that the Lord's Supper.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Acts 20:7 is no speculation. “The disciples came together to break bread” upon THE first day of THE week. That Peter continued his speech until midnight does not change the day “when” the disciples came together to break bread. Your speculation about “Monday” certainly does not allow for the observance of the Lord’s Supper on Thursday or Saturday, either.] </font>
  • … Works = salvation. The CoC claims to have the members that will go to heaven, yet you do not know for sure if you are 'saved.'

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: It is clearly stated in Romans 3:[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. The initial redemption is assuredly for PAST SINS and (you’re correct) good works were not required to obtain that salvation. After that, then what? Philippians 2:12—“Wherefore, my beloved, … work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” James 2:17, 24 ,26—“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. … Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. … For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Revelation 2:10—“… be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”] </font>
  • Please consider your ways. Stringed instruments are not the enemy of God, and you will never be able to prove that in the Bible. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. ...and may God have mercy on all of our souls.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: This forum is full of articles and discussions dealing with MUSICAL WORSHIP and musical instruments. I’m sure you believe that the Lord was speaking to the dead instruments to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord.”] </font>
  • There is no need to respond, as I will most likely never happen upon this site again.

    <font color=blue>[RESPONSE: There’s some hope in “most likely never” … so, please respond by saying that you did not visit this site again; otherwise, we would assume that you had. Oops! Is the preceding statement making sense?] </font>
Donnie
I appreciate Donnie Cruz's response to "Another Surfer." While Surfer summarily dismissed the site and desired no response, as if s/he would never return here again (human nature says otherwise), it is important that someone with knowledge of the Scriptures made a response for the benefit of other readers, who otherwise may have taken Surfer's misguided comments to heart.

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Bender
Bender

July 22nd, 2004, 11:49 pm #34

Iagree. I was looking for info on the lord's church when I came across this. I am saddened and appalled by all this. I'm sure satan is very happy! You people had better re-read the scriptures and understand why our savior died on the cross! All man's petty jealousies only put them on the broad way. SHAME,SHAME SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE BY JAN: Iagree. I was looking for info on the lord's church when I came across this. I am saddened and appalled by all this. I'm sure satan is very happy! You people had better re-read the scriptures and understand why our savior died on the cross! All man's petty jealousies only put them on the broad way. SHAME,SHAME SHAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
END QUOTE.

Bender here: No, shame shame shame on you for trying to silence us. Shame shame shame on you for not being Berean in your walk. Shame shame shame on you for using the politics of guilt against the Lord.

Bender
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Jerry Anderson
Jerry Anderson

August 20th, 2004, 9:01 pm #35

i was just surfing around for church of christ news or happenings and somehow ended up here!!!!! i'm sorry i did i'm not sure what you all are disagreeing about???? but just keep in mind we have but one judge sometimes silence and prayer are better!!!! i wish you all luck. you do not seem to be representing the church of christ very good here guys!!
Hi,

I read you message and I was wondering; Do you really believe in luck?

Jerry
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

August 23rd, 2004, 7:42 am #36

We haven’t heard anymore since Anonymous initially posted the “surfer’s” thread almost six months ago. Just keep in mind, though, based on the beginning statement that it was a search for “church of [C]hrist news or happenings.” It wasn’t a search for a congregation with which to worship during a vacation.

Your question may never be answered unless we hear from this person. However, luck or not, s/he found this site and hopefully learned to “judge” this site fairly—that its objective is to impede the efforts of the change advocates in transforming the church of our Lord into just another denomination and to prevent the spread of this infectious spiritual disease in churches.

Donnie
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Kathy Poyner
Kathy Poyner

September 5th, 2004, 2:00 am #37

dear surfer,

you have just raised the level of my curiosity. why were you “just surfing around for church of christ news or happenings”? you see, some “surfers” look for a local congregation where they can attend a worship assembly while on vacation or tour. anyway, you seem to be young and searching for something. i agree with you on the “one judge” and “prayer”; but i don’t think “silence is golden” at this stage of the church’s life—in the 21st century. believe me … we’re still representing the “silent” majority. please continue surfing. there are a lot of things about the truth that can be learned from this site—lots of fine articles with scriptural references and written by those well grounded in the truth. ignore the arguments and disagreements (part of human nature) for now and just concentrate on the fine lessons. later on, your assessment of this website’s objectives and goals will become crystal clear to you. i wish you luck.

donnie cruz
Dear Surfer,
I am but a woman who has been in the body of Christ since 1968. I was but a child when I was baptized, but knew what I was diong. I have lived through church splits, seeded new congregations and grown with the church all my life. The madison Church of Christ issue has explained to me why I lost a dear friend recently. I didn't understand what was going through the church today. Silence is not golden when it comes to issues of doctrinally sound places of worship. We have to be informed so that we know what is going on to keep Satan at bay. You must be young or a recent convert to state silence is golden. may you study and learn to rightly divide god's word so that you are prepared to fight the battle we must fight every day of our lives. I think we get too comfortable here thinking that Judgement is light years away. This earth is not our home. It is only a proving ground or testing ground where we battle the spiritualbattle every day of our lives because Satan doesn't want to be alone in Hell. At this rate, he's going to have plenty of company and I'm not judging anyone. The Scriptures tell me what we need to do to have an eternal home in Heaven and what happens if we are not obedient to God's will. We can know if we are homeward bound or Hellbound. May you grow in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
In Christ,
Kathy Poyner
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Glen Gearhart
Glen Gearhart

September 4th, 2007, 2:55 am #38

To another surfer,

I wish you had come up with original ideas. The following expressions are commonly used by the change agents and their disciples:
  • … Pray that your in-fighting will be replaced by truth.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: The truth of the matter is that the change agents have added to the New Testament truth certain creeds and beliefs which they have imitated or borrowed from their denominational neighbors.]</font>
  • … That your proof texts are better understood.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Quoting scriptural references that disprove the change agents’ borrowed denominational tenets is strongly opposed by them. Change agents are often too willing to take passages out of context just so they can align themselves with denominationalism.] </font>
  • … Intolerance is replaced with the love of Jesus.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: The love of Jesus, my friend, is not the issue. New Testament Christians should be intolerant toward false, human doctrines.] </font>
  • … A non-denominational church - yet claim to be the only church where the members will go to heaven.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Nice try! Going to heaven is not by groups or organizations. Only each INDIVIDUAL believer: (1) whose redemption in the blood of the Lamb was obtained by being immersed with Christ in baptism and (2) who has persevered and remained faithful to the end … will receive the crown of life.] </font>
  • … Not saved unless a CoC minister baptizes you - yet there is never any mention of this in the Bible.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Hmmm! The apostle Peter should have baptized me, eh? You’re correct on who does the baptizing should not matter—but where did you get your idea? I know of no member of the church who believes or makes that assumption—that a “CofC minister” must do the baptizing. However, it is the truth that redemption is not obtained prior to baptism.] </font>
  • … You observe the Lord's Supper every Sunday - yet bread was not broken until after midnight, making it Monday morning that the Lord's Supper.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: Acts 20:7 is no speculation. “The disciples came together to break bread” upon THE first day of THE week. That Peter continued his speech until midnight does not change the day “when” the disciples came together to break bread. Your speculation about “Monday” certainly does not allow for the observance of the Lord’s Supper on Thursday or Saturday, either.] </font>
  • … Works = salvation. The CoC claims to have the members that will go to heaven, yet you do not know for sure if you are 'saved.'

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: It is clearly stated in Romans 3:[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. The initial redemption is assuredly for PAST SINS and (you’re correct) good works were not required to obtain that salvation. After that, then what? Philippians 2:12—“Wherefore, my beloved, … work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” James 2:17, 24 ,26—“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. … Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. … For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” Revelation 2:10—“… be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”] </font>
  • Please consider your ways. Stringed instruments are not the enemy of God, and you will never be able to prove that in the Bible. Make a joyful noise unto the Lord. ...and may God have mercy on all of our souls.

    <font color=blue> [RESPONSE: This forum is full of articles and discussions dealing with MUSICAL WORSHIP and musical instruments. I’m sure you believe that the Lord was speaking to the dead instruments to “make a joyful noise unto the Lord.”] </font>
  • There is no need to respond, as I will most likely never happen upon this site again.

    <font color=blue>[RESPONSE: There’s some hope in “most likely never” … so, please respond by saying that you did not visit this site again; otherwise, we would assume that you had. Oops! Is the preceding statement making sense?] </font>
Donnie
To say that works are necessary for salvation is a serious heresy, because it basically says that Christ's death on the cross is not good enough to completely save you. 1 John chapter 5 clearly states that you can know that you're saved. Paul makes it very clear in Romans, Galatians, and Titus that good works come as a result of salvation, but do not play a part in salvation.

James talks about good works that result from salvation. In other words, a truly saved person will do good works, while when Paul talks of works he means those futile efforts of a lost man to justify himself before God. Neither James nor Paul ever say that salvation is by grace plus works. In fact Paul adamantly says works and grace are mutually exclusive.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (past tense indicates we are saved if we trust Christ), by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

If we trust in our works to save us, then we can't be assured of salvation. That's the problem with a grace plus works salvation. But look at the following verses.

1 John 5:11-13 For this is the record that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life....

Can it be any clearer than that?
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 5th, 2007, 12:00 pm #39

Response is below.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 5th, 2007, 12:02 pm #40

i was just surfing around for church of christ news or happenings and somehow ended up here!!!!! i'm sorry i did i'm not sure what you all are disagreeing about???? but just keep in mind we have but one judge sometimes silence and prayer are better!!!! i wish you all luck. you do not seem to be representing the church of christ very good here guys!!
This post is in response to Glen Gearhart’s post, “Salvation by grace plus works” (September 3 2007, 10:55 PM).

<font color=black size=3 face=times new roman>Statement: To say that works are necessary for salvation is a serious heresy, because it basically says that Christ's death on the cross is not good enough to completely save you. 1 John chapter 5 clearly states that you can know that you're saved. Paul makes it very clear in Romans, Galatians, and Titus that good works come as a result of salvation, but do not play a part in salvation.</font>

Response:
  • <font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman> There must be a line of demarcation drawn between two separate occurrences or events: (1) CONVERSION and (2) Christian living AFTER conversion. Unless we are able to make that distinction, the discussions and disagreements regarding the issue of “grace plus works” will never end. I honestly would find it appalling for anyone to even suggest or think or believe that Christ’s death on the cross is not enough to completely save anyone.

    Of course, when one outside of Christ comes to know the truth and becomes a Christian—this being the conversion process—all his past sins are forgiven. Romans 3:23-25 clearly explains this—“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.”

    As one can see, the conversion prospect is NEVER required BEFOREHAND to do/produce “good works” or “works of righteousness.” One can be the world’s worst criminal prior to conversion. Is he required to do good works before he repents and is baptized IN ORDER TO receive redemption or forgiveness of sins in the blood of Christ? Of course, not!!!! (So, Glen, I will have to agree with you that good works are NOT necessary for salvation … but on one condition—SALVATION in reference to CONVERSION.) I think that when “conversion” is not in the equation, the expression “works of righteousness” being necessary or not necessary for salvation becomes nebulous to the mind that doesn’t understand where they [the good works] should belong.

    I agree that, according to I John, as you said, “… you can know that you’re saved.” In fact, Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly explains this— “For by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast

    However, and speaking of the second event—what occurs AFTER conversion—the book of I John also emphasizes the significance of: walking in the light, keeping His word, keeping His commandments. Does “keeping His commandments” not imply obedience as expected of Christians according to Heb. 5:8-9? Christ learned obedience and became the author of salvation to those that OBEY him. Doesn’t obedience imply “doing good works or works of righteousness”?

    Theologians often make the mistake by not understanding the contrast or subsequence in Ephesians 2:8-9 [already quoted above] AND Ephesians 2:10—“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto [TOWARD] good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Please notice the word “FOR” at the beginning of verse 10. Verses 8 and 9 speak of the CONVERSION event; verse 10 refers to what is expected of the converted in Christian living. THE CHRISTIAN is to do good works—this speaks much more than good works being just the effect of salvation (conversion). There are numerous passages that support the necessity for the Christian to OBEY His commands … to do good works.

    While the Holy Scripture does not suggest that good works or works of righteousness are to be substituted for the blood of Christ in cleansing us from sins, nonetheless, we are commanded to OBEY. And what do you think would be the consequence of NOT obeying God’s commands? John 5:28-9—“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation..”</font>
<font color=black size=3 face=times new roman>Statement:James talks about good works that result from salvation. In other words, a truly saved person will do good works, while when Paul talks of works he means those futile efforts of a lost man to justify himself before God. Neither James nor Paul ever say that salvation is by grace plus works. In fact Paul adamantly says works and grace are mutually exclusive.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us (past tense indicates we are saved if we trust Christ), by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

If we trust in our works to save us, then we can't be assured of salvation. That's the problem with a grace plus works salvation. But look at the following verses.

1 John 5:11-13 For this is the record that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life....

Can it be any clearer than that?</font>

Response:
  • <font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Again, CONVERSION is the salvation event during which an individual is redeemed by the blood of the Lamb and begins NEWNESS OF LIFE. The Christian receives eternal life in the sense that it is a promise or an inheritance. [“I am destined to inherit 2 million dollars when I reach the age of 75. Please, don’t let me die before then.” ] Numerous passages support the truth that everlasting life will be rewarded to the faithful in the end:
  • I John 2:25—“And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.”
  • Jude 1:21—“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto [TOWARD] eternal life.”
  • Titus 3:7—“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • Eternal life is an inheritance—Mark 10:17; Luke 10:25; 18:18; etc.
  • Mark 10:30—“But he shall receive … and in the world to come eternal life.”
  • Titus 1:2—“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”
  • Titus 3:7—“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
  • Romans 6:22—“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life
  • James 1:12—“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”
  • Rev. 2:10—“… be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life

    While doing good works or works of righteousness does not forgive sins (because only the blood of Christ does and can), still the New Testament is the plenary authority in directing Christians to obeying the commands of our Lord.

    The second chapter of James clearly emphasizes that contrary to many theologians’ claim that faith produces good works, faith may not necessarily produce good works. Consider the following verses:
    • [17] Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. [18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. [19] Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
    In summary, grace is God’s part and His offer for man’s redemption in the blood of Christ is available to anyone who wants to accept that offer. When one is ready to accept God’s free gift of salvation, never is he commanded to produce good works or works of righteousness prior to conversion. (As previously mentioned, the world’s worst criminal can be saved.)

    In Christian living and journey, faith is dead without good works. He matures and grows and still sins. But the Lord is still faithful and just to forgive his confessed sins and cleanse him from all unrighteousness (I John 1:9).</font>
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