Bill
Bill

June 27th, 2005, 10:12 pm #41

This entire thread is ridiculous.

MUSICAL GENRE OR STYLE IS NOT A SCRIPTURAL ISSUE.

There is a great discussion if it's instrumental vs. non-instrumental. Whether words are repeated is a non-issue. What's the magic number that's O.K. If the phrase repeat 3 times is that O.K., but 4 is wrong? We can't sing Psalms because they're from the O.T.? If you actually believe that, you missed the boat somewhere. We are not COMMANDED to sing from the songs, but it is nonsensical to think that it is somehow prohibited.

By the way, it might pay to look at actual scriptural issues with the songs. "Days of Elijah" talks about David rebuilding the temple. David didn't rebuild the temple; Solomon did. (Is it O.K. to say that; it's from the OT.) That thought is an error scripturally. Singing "there's no God like Jehovah" 10 or even 100 times is not.

"7/11 songs" is a trivial, condescending term. Speak the truth in love, brothers.
The song, "Days Of Elijah" does have a line about David rebuilding...but it does not refer to the literal temple that Solomon rebuilt. The line is "and these are the days of your servant David, rebuilding a temple of praise." It is a clear reference to the talent David had as a man after God's own heart with the praise that he offered through the Psalms...which by the way we are commanded to sing no matter if they are repititous or not.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 28th, 2005, 1:43 am #42

No, Bill, that is where we get into serious TROUBLE. Paul used the word SPEAK. You know, SPEAK as in SPEAK and not SANG.

The word PSALMOS is a song or rather, like the Psalms, a POEM. The first INSTRUMENT of choice is the HUMAN VOICE. "Melody as TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century" says the Britannica. And we know that about the year 350 the first SINGING as an act of worship was introduced and then to sing the composer's Assyrian songs.

Paul used the word PSALLO and ODE in the same message: as you cannot WALK and RUN at the same time, you cannot SING and SPEAK at the same time otherwise Paul would NOT have used defining words.

The word ODE further defines PSALMOS as "in the style of Hebrew Cantillation." Now, to cantillate is to SPEAK and old Paul knew what he was saying after all. Cantillation was and is SPEAKING the Psalms using a stylistic form of speaking. This put EMPHASIS on words in order to understand WORDS and never to MAKE MUSIC.

Furthermore, in Romans 15 to solve the SOWING of discord as at Madison etal, Paul commanded that we use ONE MIND and ONE VOICE and speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN as the ONLY way to glorify God. Now, I just don't know how THAT can be as OBSCURED as the word SPEAK always POPS up as SANG or MAKE MUSIC. That fulfills prophecy!

In Ephesians and Colossians he commands the INSPIRED TEXT which is "that which is written." These are ALL forms of the BOOK of Psalms.

That is why there are TWO places to be noted:

First, we SPEAK one to another. That is the same word as PREACH. That is external.

Next, both ODEING and MELODY are internalized because secular SINGING to create excitement was the PLEASURING Paul outlawed in Romans 15. Melody is a WARFARE word and NEVER a musical word. ALL of the literature which uses (but does not define) Psallo and which speak of PLUCKING a literal instrument ALL relate to an older man PLUCKING his harp strings to GROOM a young boy for the UNIVERSAL religionism of pederasty.

Plucking of HEART STRINGS is well documented in the Greek literature.

This is why Paul is so CERTAIN to define SPEAKING. The Psalms were not WORSHIP songs for congregational ASSEMBLY. The people's "congregation" was excluded from the Temple area during animal sacrifices. The Holy Convocations held on both the First day and later always on the sevent day was not for WORSHIP but for REST. You know REST as in REST that thingy Jesus DIED to give us? Holy Convocation defines REHEARSING or READING whatever TEXT they had avalilable or was in the MEMORY BANK of priests or elders who were TRAINED in the oral tradition which PAUL still commanded.

The BOOK of Psalms is organized in 5 books as poetic versions of the PROSE history of the Israelites. Therefore, Paul was not remotely speaking about SANGING as worship but about TEACHING the history of God's people.

Those who assembled or gathered are defined by the Greek word SYNAGOGUE in several forms. The group or PLACE (church house) was the ekklesia. Neither the Greek nor Jewish synagogue had ANY PRAISE SERVICE because it was OUTLAWED in the wilderness and because sanity allows not silly, singy-clappy boy's PLUCKING the people when JESUS gathers with us as our ONLY Teacher through His Word.

If you will look at the Lord, Lord saying this is the form of MUSICAL PROPHESYING claiming to have power over God but really over DEMONS. God does not even know THEIR NAME. This was the same musical prophesying Paul defined in 1 Cor 11:5 and which if done in the assembly would be seen as MADNESS.

There is NO MUSICAL CONCEPT of the worship of a SPIRIT God nowhere in any of the Bible. This was for slaughtering TYPES of Jesus Christ, of prostitutes or Sodomites or SATAN or LUCIFER or ZOE who was the "singing and harp-playing prostitue." The Spirit of Christ wisely calls it NOISE.
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B
B

June 28th, 2005, 3:39 am #43

The song, "Days Of Elijah" does have a line about David rebuilding...but it does not refer to the literal temple that Solomon rebuilt. The line is "and these are the days of your servant David, rebuilding a temple of praise." It is a clear reference to the talent David had as a man after God's own heart with the praise that he offered through the Psalms...which by the way we are commanded to sing no matter if they are repititous or not.
I guess it depends on where you learned it.

The version I've heard says "your temple of praise".
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James Kisner
James Kisner

June 28th, 2005, 7:03 am #44

I've got a great idea! Why don't we take a look at some of the "scriptural" songs that churches of Christ have sung for years, since they obviously must not be "repetitive" as defined by writers in this discussion.

How about Blessed Be The Name of the Lord

Three stanzas, half of each stanza being "blessed be the name of the Lord.
Refrain sung after each stanza: "blessed be the name, blessed be the name, blessed be the name of the Lord," then repeated. The phrase "blessed be the Name" is repeated at least ten times.

Then there's the old favorite: No Not One - depending on the number of stanzas included in the hymnal, the phrase "no not one" could easily be repeated up to 26 times (a whole lot more than "there is no God like Jehovah" in Days of Elijah.)

Or consider: Nothing But The Blood of Jesus - the phrase from which the song derives its title is repeated at least six times.

Look through a hymnal sometime. Look at songs like God Will Take Care of You, Nearer My God To Thee, Near To The Heart of God, Standing on The Promises of God, God Be With You Til We Meet Again, etc.

My point: there is no point to a discussion on repitition of words in a song unless we want to cull songs from both the contemporary and classical genres that have phrases repeated. If the standard is applied to one it must be applied to the other, which would eliminate many of the songs the body of Christ has sung for many years. Is that what you guys want?

Please, Ken, no lectures on the word "sing" or any thing else. I have read your opinions and I don't think there's need here for restating them.

James
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 28th, 2005, 8:24 am #45

This entire thread is ridiculous.

MUSICAL GENRE OR STYLE IS NOT A SCRIPTURAL ISSUE.

There is a great discussion if it's instrumental vs. non-instrumental. Whether words are repeated is a non-issue. What's the magic number that's O.K. If the phrase repeat 3 times is that O.K., but 4 is wrong? We can't sing Psalms because they're from the O.T.? If you actually believe that, you missed the boat somewhere. We are not COMMANDED to sing from the songs, but it is nonsensical to think that it is somehow prohibited.

By the way, it might pay to look at actual scriptural issues with the songs. "Days of Elijah" talks about David rebuilding the temple. David didn't rebuild the temple; Solomon did. (Is it O.K. to say that; it's from the OT.) That thought is an error scripturally. Singing "there's no God like Jehovah" 10 or even 100 times is not.

"7/11 songs" is a trivial, condescending term. Speak the truth in love, brothers.
The real joke is praying:
  • <font color=indigo size=3 face=Times New Roman>“Lord, give us [this day our daily b-r-r … no!!! … we mean …] our Sunday ‘Worship Leader’ and his/her minstrels [you know, Lord, that thingy called church choir or Praise Team] to rehearse for us our worship to excellence. And lead us into temptation to ‘make music’ by singing those silly singy-clappy “praise” music 85% of the time because we want to FEEL ‘real’ good about ourselves. Also, for the remaining 15% (or less) of the time, lead us into temptation to sing those ‘psalms, hymns and spiritual songs’ bound for extinction. Please guide our ‘Worship Leader’ so that out of the very, very few hymns we sing … that he/she would select the unfamiliar, complex hymn so that we can enjoy the joyful noise of the Praise Team that performs to us and for us such unfamiliar, complex hymn. Please, Lord, watch and care for our Worship Leader as s/he wags his/her hands vigorously with all antics performed … so that all that charismatic excitement would not cause our Worship Leader to fall off the stage. There’s so much more we would like to say, but thank you for giving us the Worship Leader who mediates between You and the congregation and who leads us into Your holy presence with those rah-rah-rah music and handclapping. Amen.” </font>
Donnie
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 28th, 2005, 2:18 pm #46

I've got a great idea! Why don't we take a look at some of the "scriptural" songs that churches of Christ have sung for years, since they obviously must not be "repetitive" as defined by writers in this discussion.

How about Blessed Be The Name of the Lord

Three stanzas, half of each stanza being "blessed be the name of the Lord.
Refrain sung after each stanza: "blessed be the name, blessed be the name, blessed be the name of the Lord," then repeated. The phrase "blessed be the Name" is repeated at least ten times.

Then there's the old favorite: No Not One - depending on the number of stanzas included in the hymnal, the phrase "no not one" could easily be repeated up to 26 times (a whole lot more than "there is no God like Jehovah" in Days of Elijah.)

Or consider: Nothing But The Blood of Jesus - the phrase from which the song derives its title is repeated at least six times.

Look through a hymnal sometime. Look at songs like God Will Take Care of You, Nearer My God To Thee, Near To The Heart of God, Standing on The Promises of God, God Be With You Til We Meet Again, etc.

My point: there is no point to a discussion on repitition of words in a song unless we want to cull songs from both the contemporary and classical genres that have phrases repeated. If the standard is applied to one it must be applied to the other, which would eliminate many of the songs the body of Christ has sung for many years. Is that what you guys want?

Please, Ken, no lectures on the word "sing" or any thing else. I have read your opinions and I don't think there's need here for restating them.

James
  • <font color=red>Please, Ken, no lectures on the word "sing" or any thing else. I have read your opinions and I don't think there's need here for restating them.</font>
Too bad, too sad, Jimmy boy or whatever: You are arguing about STYLE to INFILTRATE and DIVERT or be SEED PICKERS. I quote BIBLE and LITERATE definitions of WORDS.

You could just as easily be playing the SHELL GAME of arguing about the STYLE of DIRTY DANCING and PEDDLING it to fools who can be fooled (according to Paul) as a HUGE theological debate over BELLY dancing WITH clothes or RUMP RUMBLING without clothes.

A CHURCH OF CHRIST, with or without repeats, has used songs like Psalms which TEACH some Biblical fact and then RESPOND. It does not do LORD, LORD SAYING giving the money of the DESTITUTE to what the Bible and ALL of history about MUSIC as worship calls the PROSTITUTE.

That is the PLEASURING Paul said Jesus DID NOT DO and what he OUTLAWED for the group assembly which is SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and not a VENUE for professinal TRAFFICKERS to display and sell their WARES.

What Jimmy is saying to defend that which CANNOT be defended is that HE does not CARE what Jesus died to found, what Paul defined to EXCLUDE sexual excitement and what church history--even when instruments were added--repudiated until the SECTARIANS who boasted that they had taken over Movies, Music and Media bragged that they would take over CHURCH--let the MUSICATORS into the holy place where in even the VILEST PAGAN TEMPLES they would be executed by their "brethren."

The JEZEBEL prophets saw "Homosexuality as binding flesh and spirit together." However, if a SINGER or guitarIST (PARASITE) ventured into the holy places he would be executed. The Levitical Warrior Musicians could not enter into the TYPE of the body or church of CHRIST even to clean out the GARBAGE.
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B
B

June 28th, 2005, 2:24 pm #47

The real joke is praying:
  • <font color=indigo size=3 face=Times New Roman>“Lord, give us [this day our daily b-r-r … no!!! … we mean …] our Sunday ‘Worship Leader’ and his/her minstrels [you know, Lord, that thingy called church choir or Praise Team] to rehearse for us our worship to excellence. And lead us into temptation to ‘make music’ by singing those silly singy-clappy “praise” music 85% of the time because we want to FEEL ‘real’ good about ourselves. Also, for the remaining 15% (or less) of the time, lead us into temptation to sing those ‘psalms, hymns and spiritual songs’ bound for extinction. Please guide our ‘Worship Leader’ so that out of the very, very few hymns we sing … that he/she would select the unfamiliar, complex hymn so that we can enjoy the joyful noise of the Praise Team that performs to us and for us such unfamiliar, complex hymn. Please, Lord, watch and care for our Worship Leader as s/he wags his/her hands vigorously with all antics performed … so that all that charismatic excitement would not cause our Worship Leader to fall off the stage. There’s so much more we would like to say, but thank you for giving us the Worship Leader who mediates between You and the congregation and who leads us into Your holy presence with those rah-rah-rah music and handclapping. Amen.” </font>
Donnie
Donnie,

"God Moves in a Mysterious" Way was an "unfamiliar, complex hymn" until I learned it. I still have trouble following my part in "A Mighty Fortress" even though I've sung it at least a hundred times. I wouldn't begin to suggest that singing either of those in worship is a bad idea.

ALL of these songs were new at one time.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

June 29th, 2005, 4:07 am #48

The real joke is praying:
  • <font color=indigo size=3 face=Times New Roman>“Lord, give us [this day our daily b-r-r … no!!! … we mean …] our Sunday ‘Worship Leader’ and his/her minstrels [you know, Lord, that thingy called church choir or Praise Team] to rehearse for us our worship to excellence. And lead us into temptation to ‘make music’ by singing those silly singy-clappy “praise” music 85% of the time because we want to FEEL ‘real’ good about ourselves. Also, for the remaining 15% (or less) of the time, lead us into temptation to sing those ‘psalms, hymns and spiritual songs’ bound for extinction. Please guide our ‘Worship Leader’ so that out of the very, very few hymns we sing … that he/she would select the unfamiliar, complex hymn so that we can enjoy the joyful noise of the Praise Team that performs to us and for us such unfamiliar, complex hymn. Please, Lord, watch and care for our Worship Leader as s/he wags his/her hands vigorously with all antics performed … so that all that charismatic excitement would not cause our Worship Leader to fall off the stage. There’s so much more we would like to say, but thank you for giving us the Worship Leader who mediates between You and the congregation and who leads us into Your holy presence with those rah-rah-rah music and handclapping. Amen.” </font>
Donnie
Donnie,
Ya'll been reading Kenny too much. HEHEHEHE!
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 29th, 2005, 5:29 pm #49

Yes, I noticed that Donnie jumped right into this forum with both barrels loaded. I found it encouraging that there was at least ONE person in the Mad world who had a grasp of the Word. He probably would never have posted if he saw the church as a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT.

But, of course, about half of the congregation could ALSO grasp that. One early poster filled in many of the blanks about the fact that the MUSIC word is never used in the Bible connected to a Spirit God.

Isn't that amazingly amazing that ALL of the neo-pagans see "the Holy Spirit as God's song writer and dance master" (Shelly quoting Lucado) and UNIVESAL direct commands for MUSIC AS WORSHIP when there is not ONE jot or tittle which does not associate especially instruments with Satan, prostitutes and Sodomites.

God writes with BLACK ink on WHITE paper and they see WHITE text on BLACK paper. Like Wow (as they say), Awesome! Isn't that PROOF of inspiration and doesn't that give light to Jesus virtually associating the Jewish clergy with ANOTHER SPECIES?
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JD
JD

June 29th, 2005, 9:50 pm #50

Kenny and Donnie,

I bet someone that you guys would still be at the same old horse hokey shoveling...and I WON!!! It is good to see that at least some of the conservative ultra right wing zealot pharasees are still alive and kicking....well, I guess it is good. It is still good entertainment anyway.

Hey Kenny, did you ever consider that maybe you and Donnie are the ones that have it all wrong and everyone else REALLY gets it???

Have a NICE day!!

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