John
John

June 13th, 2005, 2:15 am #21

Donnie, as much as you denigrate it, there is a Biblical precedent for repeating a line multiple times.

Psalm 118
1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.

2Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

3Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

4Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

5I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.

6The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

7The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.

8It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

9It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

10All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them.

11They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

12They compassed me about like bees: they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

13Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.

14The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.

15The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

16The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

17I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

18The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

19Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

20This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

21I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

27God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.

28Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.

29O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 13th, 2005, 6:26 am #22

Before jumping to the Old Testament to justify particular practices for Christian worship, consider two verses:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matt. 6:7 KJV).

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4 KJV).

Many fall back on the Old Testament to justify practices that are either forbidden in the New Testament or for which a specific precedent does not exist in the New Testament. A common example is the use of instrumental music. Many quote Psalm 150 and use the example of David playing on a stringed instrument. Quoting psalms to justify line repetitions in Christian music follows the same principle.

But since Christians live under the Law of Christ, not the Mosaic Law, there is no justification for seeking to fulfill one's personal desires by resorting to the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law, as Gal. 5:4 warns against.

Are the repetitions of Psalm 118 "vain" or from the "heathen"? Hardly so. But to use an Old Testament psalm to justify the endless repetitions of today's Christian "praise" music is to violate Gal. 5:4.

John's justification for repeating a line multiple times would have merit if he could find New Testament Scripture with a similar example.
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John
John

June 13th, 2005, 1:06 pm #23

Donnie, as much as you denigrate it, there is a Biblical precedent for repeating a line multiple times.

Psalm 118
1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.

2Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

3Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

4Let them now that fear the LORD say, that his mercy endureth for ever.

5I called upon the LORD in distress: the LORD answered me, and set me in a large place.

6The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?

7The LORD taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.

8It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

9It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes.

10All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD will I destroy them.

11They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

12They compassed me about like bees: they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

13Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the LORD helped me.

14The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.

15The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

16The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.

17I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the LORD.

18The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.

19Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD:

20This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.

21I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.

22The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

27God is the LORD, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.

28Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.

29O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Sorry. I just realized that I posted the wrong Psalm. It was supposed to be 136.

Psalm 136
1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

2O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

3O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

4To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

5To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

6To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

7To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

8The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

9The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

10To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

16To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

17To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

18And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

19Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

20And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

21And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

22Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

23Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

24And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

25Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

26O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.

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John
John

June 13th, 2005, 3:07 pm #24

Before jumping to the Old Testament to justify particular practices for Christian worship, consider two verses:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matt. 6:7 KJV).

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4 KJV).

Many fall back on the Old Testament to justify practices that are either forbidden in the New Testament or for which a specific precedent does not exist in the New Testament. A common example is the use of instrumental music. Many quote Psalm 150 and use the example of David playing on a stringed instrument. Quoting psalms to justify line repetitions in Christian music follows the same principle.

But since Christians live under the Law of Christ, not the Mosaic Law, there is no justification for seeking to fulfill one's personal desires by resorting to the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law, as Gal. 5:4 warns against.

Are the repetitions of Psalm 118 "vain" or from the "heathen"? Hardly so. But to use an Old Testament psalm to justify the endless repetitions of today's Christian "praise" music is to violate Gal. 5:4.

John's justification for repeating a line multiple times would have merit if he could find New Testament Scripture with a similar example.
So is your assertion that the NT church would never have used the Psalms to worship God?
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Anonymous
Anonymous

June 13th, 2005, 3:45 pm #25

Before jumping to the Old Testament to justify particular practices for Christian worship, consider two verses:

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking" (Matt. 6:7 KJV).

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5:4 KJV).

Many fall back on the Old Testament to justify practices that are either forbidden in the New Testament or for which a specific precedent does not exist in the New Testament. A common example is the use of instrumental music. Many quote Psalm 150 and use the example of David playing on a stringed instrument. Quoting psalms to justify line repetitions in Christian music follows the same principle.

But since Christians live under the Law of Christ, not the Mosaic Law, there is no justification for seeking to fulfill one's personal desires by resorting to the Old Testament and the Mosaic Law, as Gal. 5:4 warns against.

Are the repetitions of Psalm 118 "vain" or from the "heathen"? Hardly so. But to use an Old Testament psalm to justify the endless repetitions of today's Christian "praise" music is to violate Gal. 5:4.

John's justification for repeating a line multiple times would have merit if he could find New Testament Scripture with a similar example.
Are you saying we are to ignore the teachings of the OT??
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 13th, 2005, 3:58 pm #26

Sorry. I just realized that I posted the wrong Psalm. It was supposed to be 136.

Psalm 136
1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

2O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

3O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

4To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

5To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

6To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

7To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

8The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

9The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

10To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

16To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

17To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

18And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

19Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

20And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

21And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

22Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

23Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

24And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

25Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

26O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
It matters little whether John holds up Psalm 118 or Psalm 136 as his justification for using repetitive phrases in Christian music, for both of these psalms (or any other Old Testament passages like them) are good examples of repetition.

Therefore, to draw on my earlier comments, using Old Testament psalms to justify endless repetitions in today's Christian "praise" music simply violates Gal. 5:4. If a Christian must resort to the Mosaic Law and the Old Testament to justify any practices connected with the Church, then Christ indeed has become of no effect.

My earlier premise still stands: the use of repetitive phrases in Christian music would be justified if John could produce New Testament Scriptures with comparable repetitions.
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2preach
2preach

June 13th, 2005, 5:14 pm #27

Sorry. I just realized that I posted the wrong Psalm. It was supposed to be 136.

Psalm 136
1O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

2O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

3O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

4To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.

5To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.

6To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.

7To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:

8The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:

9The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.

10To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn: for his mercy endureth for ever:

11And brought out Israel from among them: for his mercy endureth for ever:

12With a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm: for his mercy endureth for ever.

13To him which divided the Red sea into parts: for his mercy endureth for ever:

14And made Israel to pass through the midst of it: for his mercy endureth for ever:

15But overthrew Pharaoh and his host in the Red sea: for his mercy endureth for ever.

16To him which led his people through the wilderness: for his mercy endureth for ever.

17To him which smote great kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

18And slew famous kings: for his mercy endureth for ever:

19Sihon king of the Amorites: for his mercy endureth for ever:

20And Og the king of Bashan: for his mercy endureth for ever:

21And gave their land for an heritage: for his mercy endureth for ever:

22Even an heritage unto Israel his servant: for his mercy endureth for ever.

23Who remembered us in our low estate: for his mercy endureth for ever:

24And hath redeemed us from our enemies: for his mercy endureth for ever.

25Who giveth food to all flesh: for his mercy endureth for ever.

26O give thanks unto the God of heaven: for his mercy endureth for ever.
There is obvious repetition in this beautiful psalm but it is not the same as the 7/11 song.

In this psalm each line or thought builds upon the line or thought that it precedes.

Notice:

<font size=3 color=blue>
“…give thanks to the Lord.”

“…give thanks to God of gods.”

“…give thanks to Lord of lords.”
</font>

This psalm has some deep teachings in it, cf. ”…To him that smote Egypt in their firstborn…” or “…To him that made great lights…” or “The sun to rule by day:”

Find a 7/11 song that has all of this in it and I will lead the song myself!

God bless, 2preach
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 13th, 2005, 6:03 pm #28

Are you saying we are to ignore the teachings of the OT??
Your question is better rephrased to say, "Should we ignore the teachings of the New Testament and fall back on the Old Testament to satisfy our personal desires for things that the New Testament does not authorize or show precedence?"

The Old Testament has been fulfilled in Christ, Who told us through the apostles that the Mosaic Law no longer justifies us (Gal. 5:4 KJV).
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 13th, 2005, 6:35 pm #29

So is your assertion that the NT church would never have used the Psalms to worship God?
John asks, "So is your assertion that the NT church would never have used the Psalms to worship God?"

John's question would divert the discussion away from the immediate issue of using repetitive phrases. A question more pertinent to the issue that John should consider is, "Since Christians no longer follow the OT example of worship, does the NT contain examples of repetititve phrases in Christian music?"

As a further example, Temple worship in the OT utilized musical instruments, and Christ likely participated in such worship. Until He was crucified, Christ also followed the OT and the Mosaic Law. Does that give us license to follow anything about the OT in Christian worship, whether it be the use of musical instruments or repetitive phrases? No, by virtue of Gal. 5:4 (KJV). Our worship is justified only by New Testament example, not by the Old Testament/Old Law.
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John
John

June 13th, 2005, 8:00 pm #30

And yet, we know from Acts 2:46, Acts 3:1, Acts 5:20, and Acts 5:42, that the early church met in the Temple Courts as well as houses.

From this we can make the NECESSARY INFERENCE that they worshipped God in the Temple. Especially since they were all Jews or Proselytes and did not consider themselves something other than Jewish at that point.

Hence we can ascertain that they would have worshipped with both Psalm 118 and Psalm 136, giving us a patter for the 7/11 songs you and Donnie denigrate with such vim and vigor.
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