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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 28th, 2012, 4:01 pm #11

What date did they discuss the vision?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 28th, 2012, 4:47 pm #12

I found it and listened: I was really amazed when they claimed that the elders "asked God to CAST A VISION for this church."
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B
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June 28th, 2012, 5:09 pm #13

And God supposedly "responded" by telling the elders to GO BEYOND what He commanded in the New Testament about vocal music and ADD instruments.

To "ask God to cast a vision for [a] church" is about like the scribes and Pharisees who demanded a sign from Jesus. Asking a "vision" from God is the same as asking a "sign" from God.

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas" (Matt. 12:38-39 KJV).

A church that still needs or wants a "vision/sign" from God doesn't seem to be grounded in the New Testament Scriptures. Such a church apparently wants something worldly and exciting--like instruments--that will please the masses, keep them entertained, and keep them coming back. If the New Testament Scriptures can't keep the congregants spellbound, it's folly to believe that adding unscriptural instruments will enhance their "faith."


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 28th, 2012, 6:35 pm #14

Good comments: I have just stolen it and added it to my first review after listening to their VISION (Hmm: the Egyptians spoke of a visual and oral orgasm"--just like the church lady at vineyard and the New Wineskins.

I will start a thread to get some attention: here is a first look at one of their proof-texts which pokes them in all the bad places.

http://www.piney.com/Buck.Dozier.Instru ... hrist.html


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June 28th, 2012, 10:50 pm #15

Elders should have the integrity to admit that they are fallible, rather than claim that their decisions are endorsed in that they suggest that God has given HIS stamp of approval. It's the idea that they prayed and this is clearly what God has told them to do. What an unwarranted assumption! A Godly elder will not suffer a meltdown when he addresses an audience and becomes so supercharged that he brings up the idea that the church members are child-like. This reminds us of tyranny. It is not the kind of church endorsed by D. Lipscomb and the late 19th century leaders who clearly taught that elders (shepherds) were leaders and not kings. That behavior is more likely popery or divine right than about the service-leader about whom Jesus referred.

To disenfranchise the current members of the church, and all those through the years that have contributed to the health and spirituality of the church, is something that no qualified leader would do.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 29th, 2012, 1:19 am #16

Madison's drive into apostasy was momentarily slowed about 12 years ago (a common incubation period) when Tom Haddon let it slip that the para-church group with their own agenda really planned to turn THEIR church into a theater for holy entertainment. The diversion was something like this: "we gonna let them think that they are on a train to Louisville but we gonna switch their car and take them to Huntsville." Why? cause that's what we gonna do. There is no way to redeem such treachery.

Tom Haddon made that boast in the "church in exile" class and someone got a copy of the tape before the others could be destroyed. Concerned members was organized to let members have a voice when the elders (aka Buck Dozier) proposed a covenant where no one would question an elders unless it was a "salvation issue."

The elders claimed before God and the watching world that they had about 5,000 members (300 in jail) and only 50 had left. In fact, their devious plans had them left with about 3300 (300 in jail). After the Musical Worship Team, that dropped as I remember to about 1300 (300 still in jail) and it has never recovered.

Phil Barnes claims that he preaches to 2000 but somehow I doubt. Phil, too, believes that whatever comes into their mind is "The Holy Spirit" speaking to them and telling them to betray their trust. I doubt that history can present a more treacherous and discording event (considering the population).

It took Rick Atchley--one of the original band of discorders--about 12 years of careful groundwork before "a" spirit stopped him in the middle of a sermon and told him it was about time. Their claim of 6400 had dwindled down to about 4500 after the firing of the deacons and hiring ministers--male and female deaconesses. After instruments on Sunday that drastically dropped to about 3,500 members. That has been the pattern and if they needed instruments to GROW they could have doubled by NOT falling into apostasy.

Rick promised that instruments would never be added to the Sunday services but when that spirit spoke to him he responded to his charge of perfidity by claiming "that was then but this is now."

Madison's incubation has probably driven away most of the OWNERS and godly elders and by their pseudo-instrumental "worship team" has finally about warmed up the frogs but not just yet. Slowly, as Jubilee [a Madison co-apostasy) planned to "ignore the older generation and focus on the youth" letting the youth is noteworthy. That treachery would be more redeemable but the people with a NEW VISION have lied about each and every "proof text" hand fed to them by the NACC.

Is that wicked? Certainly, but when people are sent strong delusions their lying wonders are specificially a theatrical religious service. However, being delusional they cannot tell the difference. They will not repent: they cannot repent. There are lots of examples to prove that. The musical idolatry at Mount Sinai was not redeemable and God promised to destroy the guilty and the rest of the nation would be sent into Babylon.
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June 29th, 2012, 4:54 am #17

1 Peter 5:1-5 examines the scriptural relationship between the "flock of God" and those who "exercise oversight", who are called "elders" and also "shepherds." Elders should be eager and willing to "shepherd" not for raw duty or for monetary gain, nor are they to domineering. Leadership is to be achieved primarily through "example", and this is the soft leadership of leading the way not through regal and compulsive power. Should this perfect leadership be achieved, then "when the chief Shepherd appears, [Christians] will receive the unfading crown of glory." Futhermore, younger are to respect the older, all should have humility toward one another, because "GOD OPPOSES THE PROUD BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." We are to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, who is the real power and authority.

A proper examination of leadership of the Shepherd is a great need in today's church. The shepherd precedes the flock and does not drive them from behind. Coercion is much more unpredictable than example. Honey draws more flies than vinegar. The elders are not our Board of Directors but those with insight about the teachings of Jesus Christ. With all respect, if the pulpit speaker on Sunday morning does not have a vision for the church but simply adopts the directives of the Board, it is a sign of some lack.

Disenfranchisement of church members is a sure way to get a dwindling congregation. Those with experience in church growth know that when church members are "empowered" with duties and obligations, there is likely to be church growth. But if the members feel that they are just the objects of decisions made in a closet, they will have little motivation. Especially, in regard to children, if the mothers feel that their children are the objects of propaganda from the highest levels of the church, there cannot be any spiritual growth.

Misanalysis of the causes of church decline can be fatal to the church. Remedies can turn into disasters. Situations where "shepherds" seem to be fleeing from church members is not a situation that is conducive to productive dialog. When elders feel that they need to flee from the church members, it is time for them to resign. Good churches set up committees to gather consensus, so organization is a great need. Every church member should be honored and listened to.
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Racnor
Racnor

June 29th, 2012, 2:18 pm #18

"Good churches set up committees to gather consensus, so organization is a great need."

**********************************************

Is that Biblical?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 29th, 2012, 8:49 pm #19

1 Peter 5:1-5 examines the scriptural relationship between the "flock of God" and those who "exercise oversight", who are called "elders" and also "shepherds." Elders should be eager and willing to "shepherd" not for raw duty or for monetary gain, nor are they to domineering. Leadership is to be achieved primarily through "example", and this is the soft leadership of leading the way not through regal and compulsive power. Should this perfect leadership be achieved, then "when the chief Shepherd appears, [Christians] will receive the unfading crown of glory." Futhermore, younger are to respect the older, all should have humility toward one another, because "GOD OPPOSES THE PROUD BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." We are to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, who is the real power and authority.

A proper examination of leadership of the Shepherd is a great need in today's church. The shepherd precedes the flock and does not drive them from behind. Coercion is much more unpredictable than example. Honey draws more flies than vinegar. The elders are not our Board of Directors but those with insight about the teachings of Jesus Christ. With all respect, if the pulpit speaker on Sunday morning does not have a vision for the church but simply adopts the directives of the Board, it is a sign of some lack.

Disenfranchisement of church members is a sure way to get a dwindling congregation. Those with experience in church growth know that when church members are "empowered" with duties and obligations, there is likely to be church growth. But if the members feel that they are just the objects of decisions made in a closet, they will have little motivation. Especially, in regard to children, if the mothers feel that their children are the objects of propaganda from the highest levels of the church, there cannot be any spiritual growth.

Misanalysis of the causes of church decline can be fatal to the church. Remedies can turn into disasters. Situations where "shepherds" seem to be fleeing from church members is not a situation that is conducive to productive dialog. When elders feel that they need to flee from the church members, it is time for them to resign. Good churches set up committees to gather consensus, so organization is a great need. Every church member should be honored and listened to.
Paul in Ephesians 4 defends the church inclusively and exclusively. The elders have violated all of those instructions.

http://www.piney.com/Ephesians.4.Unity. ... rsity.html

Using female elders (word feeders, speakers with a tune) assuredly EXCLUDES lots of males and females since it proves an effort to sow discord. Sounds like they are still in a self-destruct mode. It gets pretty much like a cult when they push giving and go off in a corner and hatch up a bunch of new programs to make sure the lambs do not run out of anything to do. I have little doubt but that there is only one senior elder who cannot see that church is A School of Christ: it had no organized programs to which one must be shepherded into throughout the week as the fatal Social Gospel. Their intention is to break their back to prove that they can save themselves from being marginalized ,

They are listening to the missleaders and don't have the slightest notion that Scripture defines the role of the elder or pastor-teacher both inclusively. In Ezphesians 4 the pastor-teachers are gifted specifically to exclude or disfellowship The Cunning Craftsmen.

This is the wise or sophists TO WHOM God hides Himself. That would include what Christ alluded to by Jesus as Scribes and Pharisees: self-speakers, singers and instrument players.





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June 30th, 2012, 1:32 am #20

"Good churches set up committees to gather consensus, so organization is a great need."

**********************************************

Is that Biblical?
Yes, consensus is a great need. The Bible calls it "unity."
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