Scripture
Scripture

January 11th, 2017, 12:48 am #11

Here are some points for discussion, as we follow along with similar considerations. It seems to be impossible to make a translation that doesn't have some bias.

The King James Version was created by the Anglicans to counter the Calvinist Geneva Bible which had a large readership, and had anti-clerical and anti-government views in the side-notes. It was perhaps the first Study Bible. I personally recommend using a “reference Bible” rather than a Study Bible, since doctrine is minimal but helpful references to other Bible verses is available. For example, to see MacArthur Study Bible circulating in the church is a cause for some concern. All too often readers pay full attention to the notes, but less to the written scriptures.

Below I have listed are a few places in the King James Version that seem to endorse church hierarchy.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Supports both the church hierarchy as well as tyrranical government.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Supports church hierarchy above the congregational level as well as clerical privilege. "Bishoprick" actually places their doctrine into the text.

1 Timothy 3:13 “For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.”

Makes a church role into an office, whereby privilege is given. “Office” is not in the original Greek. Perhaps “office” is implied in the context, “Served well as deacons” is contained even in many contemporary translations, but the expression is “redundant” and therefore misleading, where “deacon” and “served well” are like saying “served well as servants.” Even modern translations try to get “office” in the text.

1 Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Notice verse 3 “God’s heritage” implying “office-holders” in the church are “over God’s heritage” although it partially negates that by asking them not to “lord” it. Much other items can be discovered by comparing the KJV with more modern translations.


Some have pointed out, in parallel with William's post, that the overseer of 1 Timothy 3 basically says that the one chosen "should be of good report." The characteristics which are not desirable in an overseer are indicators of "bad report."

Surely, many good men are not appointed to be elders since they either don't desire the office, or the already existing elders don't choose them. Congregations do differ as to who is the appointing authority, i.e. the current elders or the congregation itself. If a congregation has good elders, their approval or veto of new elders is more or less a good thing. If they are tyrannical and poor leaders, then they have a lock on the congregation, and there isn't much hope.

There must be a way for a congregation to advance even if poor elders have a lock on the congregation's health. Often the solution is an unfortunate church split, but other methods such as a congregation overruling the poor elders and approving a better solution.

I think that when issues go to civil court, courts often decide that the elders have the final choice, so our practices of giving the elders final authority has reached the public arena by osmosis. Since the Churches of Christ are congregationally autonomous, it is desirable to have a charter [for each congregation] and clearly stated mechanism to decide controversial issues. Few congregations are fully prepared for an impasse in leadership.

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Sarge
Sarge

January 12th, 2017, 1:38 pm #12





Land that is unoccupied or is under dispute between parties who leave it unoccupied due to fear or uncertainty.....an area where guidelines and authority are not clear.


Ken, just give us your best shot.

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Sarge
Sarge

January 12th, 2017, 3:31 pm #13

Some have pointed out, in parallel with William's post, that the overseer of 1 Timothy 3 basically says that the one chosen "should be of good report." The characteristics which are not desirable in an overseer are indicators of "bad report."

Surely, many good men are not appointed to be elders since they either don't desire the office, or the already existing elders don't choose them. Congregations do differ as to who is the appointing authority, i.e. the current elders or the congregation itself. If a congregation has good elders, their approval or veto of new elders is more or less a good thing. If they are tyrannical and poor leaders, then they have a lock on the congregation, and there isn't much hope.

There must be a way for a congregation to advance even if poor elders have a lock on the congregation's health. Often the solution is an unfortunate church split, but other methods such as a congregation overruling the poor elders and approving a better solution.

I think that when issues go to civil court, courts often decide that the elders have the final choice, so our practices of giving the elders final authority has reached the public arena by osmosis. Since the Churches of Christ are congregationally autonomous, it is desirable to have a charter [for each congregation] and clearly stated mechanism to decide controversial issues. Few congregations are fully prepared for an impasse in leadership.
Brother Dave
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72.146.4.90
How vocal should women be in this forum?
September 13 2005, 10:12 PM

I know its not like a worship service here. But do you think maybe there should be a "women only" forum here? Its possible that a woman may bash an Elder on Monday that she was submissive to in Church on Sunday. What do you think?
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William
William

January 13th, 2017, 1:34 am #14

Some have pointed out, in parallel with William's post, that the overseer of 1 Timothy 3 basically says that the one chosen "should be of good report." The characteristics which are not desirable in an overseer are indicators of "bad report."

Surely, many good men are not appointed to be elders since they either don't desire the office, or the already existing elders don't choose them. Congregations do differ as to who is the appointing authority, i.e. the current elders or the congregation itself. If a congregation has good elders, their approval or veto of new elders is more or less a good thing. If they are tyrannical and poor leaders, then they have a lock on the congregation, and there isn't much hope.

There must be a way for a congregation to advance even if poor elders have a lock on the congregation's health. Often the solution is an unfortunate church split, but other methods such as a congregation overruling the poor elders and approving a better solution.

I think that when issues go to civil court, courts often decide that the elders have the final choice, so our practices of giving the elders final authority has reached the public arena by osmosis. Since the Churches of Christ are congregationally autonomous, it is desirable to have a charter [for each congregation] and clearly stated mechanism to decide controversial issues. Few congregations are fully prepared for an impasse in leadership.
Yes, that listing in 1 Timothy and Titus 1 is basically a list of character attributes. I have know several who met all those "qualifications" but for one reason or another were not very apt elders. Some I thought would have been fine elders in a congregation with a larger eldership, but simply were not effective in carrying a load.

I have concluded, arguable, that what we should mean when we say "deacon" as an officer is someone who serves the church visibly. Any can serve; any can be a servant. But when looking at the whole context of "deacon" it seems to me to be apparent that these were men, only men, who visibly represented much of the day to day activities of the congregation. In Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy address the letter to all God's "holy people" including the "overseers" and -- who? This little verse illustrates the difficulty suffered by translators. Slaves, bond-men or servants. Saints, God's holy people, God's people. How many times should deacon be translated servant vs deacon. Does deacon say more to us than servant? Yes, it does, but is it any more correct in context? When the writer of Romans said "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea", did he mean a servant like I am a servant, or did he mean someone specially appointed to serve the church. I think the former, although it is clear that Phoebe was definitely well known as a servant. I have been associated with several congregations, including where I am now, where I marveled at the tireless work of the ladies.



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 13th, 2017, 2:23 am #15

I believe you are correct. There is much background material but here seems to be the order.

Preacher or Kerusso is an evangelist or herald. While he may tarry momentarily his job is to GO and preach the gospel. Paul's pattern was not to do the same thing where preachers or evangelists had planted the seed. In the examples generally Jesus taught in the synagogues and WENT out to Preach. There can be no located evangelist or increasingly "missionary in residence." There is nothing to preach beyond the WORD as regulative principle which excludes the general skills of the Senior Pulpit Minister. Jesus Christ failed to mention them in Ephesians 4. The elders are the Pastor-Teachers with the authority to teach that which has been taught and model lives which can be imitated.

The word Presbyter is also defined as a herald: he never originates the message but faithfully delivers it to others. Early men became overseers over multiple groups because they had collected the flocks. He was not a hireling.

A Shepher is a FEEDER and he has nothing of himself to be the food. He makes certain that the lambs are brought to the food and fends off wolves.

The word Deacon is not a flunky who "fixes my scooter" or mows my lawn: a deacon "holds the mysteries of the faith" and has a "clear conscience" which also means consciousness or a co-perception of the Word. They ARE the MINISTERS of a local flock. They are also defined as a teacher because he like the elders are Scholars of the Word and not Doctors of the Law.

1Tim. 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Tim. 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.


Why would the Deacons be singled out as those who can SEE THE LIGHT unless the have the same teaching role as the elders. Deacons as younger men were more able to help others and travel through their area of influence to teach people?

A degree in theology probably marks one as NOT holding the mysteries:

Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.


A Deacon as THE MINISTERS in congregations served the elders as "older people" or those in need but they are much more:

1Tim. 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Of the "many" Paul said if they do not work neither shall they eat. The deacon is to work so that he can SERVE others:

g1247. diakone÷w diakoneo, dee-ak-on-eh´-o; from 1249; to be an attendant, i.e. wait upon (menially or as a host, friend,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
or (figuratively) teacher); technically, to act as a Christian deacon: — (ad-)minister (unto), serve, use the office of a deacon. minister to one's own needs, serve oneself, S.Ph.287; “hautō diakoneitai” Ar.Ach.1017; [cook your own food] diakonountes kai diakonoumenoi heautois acting as servants AND serving themselves, Pl.Lg.763a

Degree: g898. bathmos, bath-mos´; from the same as 899; a step, i.e. (figuratively) grade (of dignity): — degree.

g899. bathos, bath´-os; from the same as 901; profundity, i.e. (by implication) extent; (figuratively) mystery: — deep(-ness, things), depth


The Deacons or ministers must hold the mysteries of THE FAITH: The Faith is defined as THE WORD which gives no room for added faith or practices. If the minister as the teacher along with elders TEACHES then he gets an ADVANCED DEGREE. This is contrary to the "degrees" of the doctors of the Law whom Jesus said Take away the key to KNOWLEDGE.

The fad is to neuter the male decons and hire female ministers or Deaconesses probably they are nicer around the growing "office complex" to house the growing STAFF. They will know too late that Jesus didn't give them a ROLE or a DOLE so, like the pharisees they have to pick the widow's purse to keep from GOING as teachers into all of the world. The sounds-like harps you hear about are just before the Angel tells those "still living" that this is a sound of judgment so they had better preach the gospel to all nations.

When elders who are rarely APT hire a Dominant Minister the vocational deacons are rarely APT in the Faith and their Subservience to an Alpha Male guarantees they the will never grow into advanced degrees of knowledge and abilities.

Neither the civil nor religious synagogue or ekklesia had like David "a king set over us" with a Standing Army or STAFF who operates an institution full time. The Greek ekklesia and synagogue were called into assembly roughly once each week. Men who kept house at temples or shrines to keep contact with the gods were called PARASITES.

Plato Lives [762e] Now it is needful that every man should hold the view, regarding men in general, that the man who has not been a servant will never become a praiseworthy master, and that the right way to gain honor is by serving honorably rather than by ruling honorably—doing service first to the laws, since this is service to the gods, and, secondly, the young always serving the elder folk and those who have lived honorable lives. In the next place, he who is made a land-steward must have partaken of the daily rations, which are coarse and uncooked, during the two years of service. For whenever the Twelve have been chosen,

Nor can the MINISTERS take other people's money to hire assistant ministers or a dozen "ministry leaders".

Why should an Assembly or School of Christ be less manly and ethical than normal people in a more civil society?

Plat. Laws 763a being assembled together with the Five, they shall resolve that, acting like servants, they will keep no servants or slaves to wait on themselves, nor will they employ any attendants belonging to the other farmers or villagers for their own private needs, but only for public requirements; and in all other respects they shall determine to live a self-supporting life, acting as their own ministers and masters, and thoroughly exploring, moreover, the whole country both by summer and winter, </font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on January 13th, 2017, 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sarge
Sarge

January 14th, 2017, 1:45 pm #16

Maybe this would be a good topic.

How does the congregation at which you worship make its decisions?

By elder authority? Does the preacher rule? Does the staff take control?

Is there approval by the congregation, by voting or by casual agreement, with decisions that are made elsewhere?

Is the leadership "laissez faire", or "leave along" and let the congregation drift.

How do leadership styles confront current change that may be taking place?

Is the only thing constant is change itself?

What is the Biblical way of making decisions?
Does the Church of Christ not affirm the autonomy of the local church?
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Sarge
Sarge

January 14th, 2017, 3:42 pm #17



Hint....Hint.....No solution. Give the ball to Ken and move on.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 14th, 2017, 3:50 pm #18

Does the Church of Christ not affirm the autonomy of the local church?
All of the "progressives" beginning with Jubilee 89 were-are purpose driven to collectivize congregations. In a true sense any "workshop" or "conference" which sucks in too many preachers each year BELIEVE that, as claimed, they are THOUGHT LEADERS. My experience is that all of the infiltrate and divert of all of the congregations in my working life happened after men returned from a mass meeting where their xy was tampered with. David Rhoades began by posting some of the Nazi look-alike confessions.

Adolph Hitler and the Change Agents

http://www.piney.com/mkv2ch06.html

The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.

The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.

But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual, it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps. The man who is exposed to grave tribulations, as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop, absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.


Mike Cope working with Pepperdine and the NACC speaks of sidtracking young preachers into COHORTS to deprogram them from the Biblical and Historic Church of Christ of which the "scholars" have no need to know. this is one of those tee-hee moments since the cohorts and the pirates whom they imitate were often sexually bonded together.

And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small, he steps for the first time into a mass meeting and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him, when, <font color="#FF0000">as a SEEKER, (Als Suchender.
' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs) he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm, when the visible success and agreement of thousands confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -

then he himself has succumbed to the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'

The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual. The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced: he has become a link in the community.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular it must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois s who know everything better, but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state including their own existence and the rule of their class.

Oh, yes, they are very, very clever, they know everything, understand everything - only one thing they did not understand, how to prevent the German people from falling into the arms of Marxism. In this they miserably and wretchedly failed, so that their present conceit is only arrogance, which in the form of pride, as everyone knows, always thrives on the same tree as stupidity.

If today these people attribute no special value to the spoken word, they do so, it must be added, only because, thank the Lord, they have become thoroughly convinced by now of the ineffectualness of their own speechmaking.


One of the local MOTHERS having failed boasts about waiting for the older people to die so "we can take over that group." They use the KAIROS "just in time" concept which you are not supposed to know that Kairos was a Hermes type as the "god of thieves and liars" and kairos really means "the Right Time and right Place to mount a hostile attack." The Devil, says John, is so active because his KAIROS is short. Kairos was the demon son of Zeus.

Rubel Shelly also uses the Machiavelli Pattern explaining why change takes so long. In the Prince Machiavelli speaks about how to take over other peoples lands. He says that "people can change by PRAYER or by FORCE but prayer rarely works."

Ezekiel spoke of "Workshops of Evil where prophesiers including women" go to steal words one from another. So, there is no autonomy when your preacher wants to lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows and make the widows pay for being deceived.



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Sarge
Sarge

January 14th, 2017, 4:04 pm #19



I agree, can we move on......
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Sarge
Sarge

January 14th, 2017, 7:52 pm #20


What does this mean?


Preachers in the COC can now call each other "Pastor".

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