How About You!

Dave
Dave

July 29th, 2011, 3:14 pm #1

Which one are you?

Taken from Wikipeidia.....
Three quarters of the congregations and 87% of the membership are described by the *The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement* as "mainstream", sharing a consensus on practice and theology. The remaining congregations may be grouped into four categories, the largest of which is the churches of Christ (non-institutional). Approximately 2,055 congregations fall in this category. The second group does not use separate Bible classes, and consists of approximately 1,100 congregations. A third group does not use multiple communion cups (approximately 550 congregations; this category overlaps somewhat with those congregations that do not use separate Bible classes for children). The fourth group "emphasize mutual edification by various leaders in the churches and oppose one person doing most of the preaching". This group includes roughly 130 congregations. These groups generally differ from the mainstream consensus in specific practices, rather than in theological perspectives, and tend to have smaller congregations on average.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 30th, 2011, 1:46 am #2

The good part is that these are all churches of Christ, differing in very minor issues.

It matters not to use one cup or multi-colored cups -- the substance is the same: the fruit of the vine. It matters not to have or not to have separate Bible classes -- the church as a shool of God's truth assembles for that purpose. The church assembles to teach God's Word and not denominational beliefs.

Your question could be a two-part question:

(1) Which one are you as a member?
(2) Which one is the congregation of which you are a member?

Dave, which one are you?

One thing noteworthy is that in the commentary, the group that is not represented consists of the very, very few congregations that indulge in mechanical music. I'm inclined to think either that it's been overlooked or that it's extremely insignificant to be part of the statistics. It is more so when you account for all the churches worldwide -- the instrumental music indulgents are represented only by 20 of 40,000 congregations. So, what percentage is that?

In your case, Dave, here's the dichotomy between you and your congregation. You favor the use of inanimate and lifeless musical objects in the assembly, whereas your congregation DOES NOT.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 30th, 2011, 2:00 am #3

Which one are you?

Taken from Wikipeidia.....
Three quarters of the congregations and 87% of the membership are described by the *The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement* as "mainstream", sharing a consensus on practice and theology. The remaining congregations may be grouped into four categories, the largest of which is the churches of Christ (non-institutional). Approximately 2,055 congregations fall in this category. The second group does not use separate Bible classes, and consists of approximately 1,100 congregations. A third group does not use multiple communion cups (approximately 550 congregations; this category overlaps somewhat with those congregations that do not use separate Bible classes for children). The fourth group "emphasize mutual edification by various leaders in the churches and oppose one person doing most of the preaching". This group includes roughly 130 congregations. These groups generally differ from the mainstream consensus in specific practices, rather than in theological perspectives, and tend to have smaller congregations on average.
What Dave cites from the Wikipedia article seems to focus primarily on form and physical environment instead of important doctrinal issues. If the article touches on the latter, perhaps Dave would include those.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

July 30th, 2011, 2:23 am #4

The good part is that these are all churches of Christ, differing in very minor issues.

It matters not to use one cup or multi-colored cups -- the substance is the same: the fruit of the vine. It matters not to have or not to have separate Bible classes -- the church as a shool of God's truth assembles for that purpose. The church assembles to teach God's Word and not denominational beliefs.

Your question could be a two-part question:

(1) Which one are you as a member?
(2) Which one is the congregation of which you are a member?

Dave, which one are you?

One thing noteworthy is that in the commentary, the group that is not represented consists of the very, very few congregations that indulge in mechanical music. I'm inclined to think either that it's been overlooked or that it's extremely insignificant to be part of the statistics. It is more so when you account for all the churches worldwide -- the instrumental music indulgents are represented only by 20 of 40,000 congregations. So, what percentage is that?

In your case, Dave, here's the dichotomy between you and your congregation. You favor the use of inanimate and lifeless musical objects in the assembly, whereas your congregation DOES NOT.
Donnie, I have to strongly disagree with your conclusions about things which matter and don't matter in congregations. To those that hold dearly to the "one cup" or "no classroom" belief, those beliefs are just as important as your belief regarding instruments and they would be glad to tell you that. The reason that those do not matter to you is because you do not have any objection to them. The same could be said for those that hold the belief that instruments are acceptable to God. They find your reasoning regarding instruments just as illogical as you find the divisions over instruments. The perspective is always in the eye of the beholder.

You need only look at the recent article about Bro. Jimmy Wren in the latest issue of "Defender" published by the Bellview Church of Christ. These "Contending for the Faith" "brethren" have labeled Bro. Jimmy as a heretic because of the actions of his congregation in Ft. Worth many years ago. These are the same "brethren" which you have repeatedly defended over the years on this site. The issue involves Elder reaffirmation and they take him to task (marking him to their readers as unfaithful) because of the actions of his congregation. You do the same thing on this site - mark and accuse those with which you do not agree while glossing over the marked differences of belief on those issues which you do not find divisive but which others would find to be as divisive as instruments are to you. This is not a condemnation of you, I understand how this can happen. I have done the same thing in the past.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 30th, 2011, 5:24 am #5

First, thanks for your comments.

I understand what you're trying to convey. I am also fully aware of the importance of certain practices in respective congregations that hold them dearly. But I think that comparing the Communion cup issue to that of blowing the trumpet in worship is not analogous to comparing apples and apples.

I know that you are aware of the statistics produced in the directory of churches of Christ published by 21st Century Christian. The directory has shown a marked difference between the more recent statistics and those from only a few years ago. The recent directory ceased to account for congregations that have gone "mechanical music" participating in worship, some of which have completely dropped the name "of Christ" just to be accommodating and compromising. Whereas the directory continued to list all other congregations regardless of their idiosyncrasies.

I'm unable to comment on the reaffirmation of elders issue as I do not have any information regarding the matter. I am not clear on the "recent article [/] latest issue" and the actions of "many years ago."
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Dave
Dave

July 30th, 2011, 5:52 am #6

Which one are you?

Taken from Wikipeidia.....
Three quarters of the congregations and 87% of the membership are described by the *The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement* as "mainstream", sharing a consensus on practice and theology. The remaining congregations may be grouped into four categories, the largest of which is the churches of Christ (non-institutional). Approximately 2,055 congregations fall in this category. The second group does not use separate Bible classes, and consists of approximately 1,100 congregations. A third group does not use multiple communion cups (approximately 550 congregations; this category overlaps somewhat with those congregations that do not use separate Bible classes for children). The fourth group "emphasize mutual edification by various leaders in the churches and oppose one person doing most of the preaching". This group includes roughly 130 congregations. These groups generally differ from the mainstream consensus in specific practices, rather than in theological perspectives, and tend to have smaller congregations on average.
Well.....I can tell you.....I ain't a gonna be in the one cup group. Can you imagine drinking from the same cup as Bill Crump?

Ha!

Oh, and admit it or not Donnie, Tom hit the nail on the head. Yes Donnie, those that believe in the one cup communion would tell you that they believe it is as big an issue as the instrumental music issue. You can't speak for them. You don't have that right. They believe that you are wrong to a sin when you partake of multiple cups......just as you believe that there are those who are wrong that blow the trumpet during worship.
Donnie, when you say that I favor instruments in the assembly, and I have repeated time after time that I do not, [angry, malicious words edited out].

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The message above has been approved because of its contents OTHER THAN "you sin by lying.....again." This is no less disgusting than an "expletive deleted" -- one reason for a post being deleted or rejected. Expressions such as "you sin by lying.....again" [a symbolic punch in the face by an uncivil opponent] are discourse killers. There are many civil ways to express ire. Let this be a lesson: future posts that contain such malicious comments will be subject to rejection or deletion.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on July 30th, 2011, 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 30th, 2011, 4:07 pm #7

Which one are you?

Taken from Wikipeidia.....
Three quarters of the congregations and 87% of the membership are described by the *The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement* as "mainstream", sharing a consensus on practice and theology. The remaining congregations may be grouped into four categories, the largest of which is the churches of Christ (non-institutional). Approximately 2,055 congregations fall in this category. The second group does not use separate Bible classes, and consists of approximately 1,100 congregations. A third group does not use multiple communion cups (approximately 550 congregations; this category overlaps somewhat with those congregations that do not use separate Bible classes for children). The fourth group "emphasize mutual edification by various leaders in the churches and oppose one person doing most of the preaching". This group includes roughly 130 congregations. These groups generally differ from the mainstream consensus in specific practices, rather than in theological perspectives, and tend to have smaller congregations on average.
Yes, "How [a]bout You[?]" ---> [? ? ? ?]

That IS a very interesting question!
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 31st, 2011, 1:03 am #8

First, thanks for your comments.

I understand what you're trying to convey. I am also fully aware of the importance of certain practices in respective congregations that hold them dearly. But I think that comparing the Communion cup issue to that of blowing the trumpet in worship is not analogous to comparing apples and apples.

I know that you are aware of the statistics produced in the directory of churches of Christ published by 21st Century Christian. The directory has shown a marked difference between the more recent statistics and those from only a few years ago. The recent directory ceased to account for congregations that have gone "mechanical music" participating in worship, some of which have completely dropped the name "of Christ" just to be accommodating and compromising. Whereas the directory continued to list all other congregations regardless of their idiosyncrasies.

I'm unable to comment on the reaffirmation of elders issue as I do not have any information regarding the matter. I am not clear on the "recent article [/] latest issue" and the actions of "many years ago."
It is apparent that some folks are not able to discern what is doctrinally important in worship. Jesus never gave instructions for the NUMBER of cups to use in the Lord's Supper. Therefore, we are free to choose whether we use one cup or many. It apparently was the custom of the Jewish passover to pass one cup around. But since there is no command to use one cup, to say that it is sinful to use multiple cups is to create a doctrine that does not exist in the New Testament. As far as IM goes, we have explicit instructions to sing and make melody in the heart. Since there is no command to add IM, to say that it is right to use IM in worship is to create a doctrine that does not exist in the New Testament. The same applies to other physical elements of worship, like having carpets on the floors, for example, or having classrooms for Bible study. Jesus never gave any instructions one way or the other about carpets or classrooms, so we have the freedom to implement them. They and hundreds of other non-essentials do not clash with the Gospel message in any way. To say that it is a "sin" to use them is to create a doctrine that does not exist in the New Testament.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

July 31st, 2011, 1:09 am #9

Yes, "How [a]bout You[?]" ---> [? ? ? ?]

That IS a very interesting question!
Mr. Crump has apparently forgotten the "E" of CENI. While admitting that the example is of one cup, he dismisses it because it was not a command. You see the problem Donnie? What is one person's CENI, is another person's opinion. You could not ask for a clearer example! Thanks Mr. Crump!
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 31st, 2011, 1:45 am #10

Well.....I can tell you.....I ain't a gonna be in the one cup group. Can you imagine drinking from the same cup as Bill Crump?

Ha!

Oh, and admit it or not Donnie, Tom hit the nail on the head. Yes Donnie, those that believe in the one cup communion would tell you that they believe it is as big an issue as the instrumental music issue. You can't speak for them. You don't have that right. They believe that you are wrong to a sin when you partake of multiple cups......just as you believe that there are those who are wrong that blow the trumpet during worship.
Donnie, when you say that I favor instruments in the assembly, and I have repeated time after time that I do not, [angry, malicious words edited out].

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The message above has been approved because of its contents OTHER THAN "you sin by lying.....again." This is no less disgusting than an "expletive deleted" -- one reason for a post being deleted or rejected. Expressions such as "you sin by lying.....again" [a symbolic punch in the face by an uncivil opponent] are discourse killers. There are many civil ways to express ire. Let this be a lesson: future posts that contain such malicious comments will be subject to rejection or deletion.
Dave wrote: "Donnie, when you say that I favor instruments in the assembly, and I have repeated time after time that I do not,..."

Dave may not favor IM in his particular congregation(?), but I believe he has said he sees nothing wrong with other church of Christ congregations having IM if it is their preference. Dave regards a cappella singing or IM as a "preference" thing; he also believes that congregations choosing to sing a cappella do so out of "preference" rather than because of any biblical command, example, or necessary inference. Mainstream church of Christ congregations constitute the vast majority of such congregations and hence, sing a cappella, not because of "preference," but because of biblical command. Over and over, we have preached that we cannot exceed the limits of a specific command; that is, we cannot go above what is written (1 Cor. 4:6). Yet the progressives continue to promote their premise of "God didn't say not to have IM," a premise that is not found anywhere in the New Testament. Thus the progressives thumb their noses at the explicit command that says to sing and make melody in the heart.
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