How About You!

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 31st, 2011, 3:50 am #11

Mr. Crump has apparently forgotten the "E" of CENI. While admitting that the example is of one cup, he dismisses it because it was not a command. You see the problem Donnie? What is one person's CENI, is another person's opinion. You could not ask for a clearer example! Thanks Mr. Crump!
So maybe Brite can tell us which is "right": one cup or many cups. Does it really matter in the long run? Is God going to damn us to hell for using one cup or many cups? Maybe a question to ask is this: Would God damn us to hell if we substitute soft drinks for the fruit of the vine? Perhaps Brite can expound on that and teach us what we need to know.
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Sonny
Sonny

July 31st, 2011, 12:37 pm #12

Brother Crump,

The same can be said for a piano. Will a piano really damn us to hell? Does a piano really matter in the long run?

Where you do not make a "NECESSARY inference" regarding number of cups, some in our brotherhood do say it is necessary and would condemn you to hell for using multiple cups.

Likewise, you do make a necessary inference regarding instruments, and condemn those to hell who use them. Whereas, some of us are concluding IM is a similar matter of inference. One is not a Christian based on whether or not the use one or multiple cups, or sing with or without a piano.

-Sonny
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 31st, 2011, 6:45 pm #13

Here are some absolutes in addition to the MANY of examples of writers SHUTTING DOWN the performing mercinaries SO THAT the church can take place. If you DENY that then you ARE NOT YET a disciple of Christ. No pagan temple was so vile that singers and musicians lumped with acrobats, prostitutes and rhetoricians (same thing as Corruppters of the Word). Musical performers based on the definition of words always performed the role of EXORCISM and in the temple and a church near you music MEANT "to make the lambs dumbe before the slaughter." That is what was prophesied as the Judas Attack--which did not work--but the Levites carried out the sacrifice of the TRUE Lamb of God with musical mocking. I don't believe anyone lying and cheating to charge an ADMISSION FEE for THEIR teaching can read BLACK text on BROWN paper.




Only those John called SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world in several incarnations, will try to justify their performance role. Sorry but Amos and Revelation 17 says that they are agents of the Babylon Mother of Harlots: her agents are "lusted after fruits"(and so the watching world affirms and runs). They are preachers, singers and instrument players and THEY, according to Christ in Isaiah 30, will be MARKED or IDENTIFIED by the sounds of Wind, String and Percussion instruments SOUNDS of God driving them into Hell. In Revelation John says that they will be cast ALIVE in the Lake of Fire: Incentor is a song starter or IGNIS meaning he LIGHTS THE SACRIFICIAL FIRES.

I KNOW those who are boasting about Lighting the Fires MUST deny everything said about the UNIQUE auuthority of Jesus Christ in the Prophets and Apostles (only). I still have to warn you. Hebrews 12 says of those who do not come before God in reverence and godly fear that He is Still a CONSUMING FIRE. Be careful: Satan's Enlistment Teams are roaming seeking whom they may devour. (a double entendre).
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

July 31st, 2011, 6:45 pm #14

Brother Crump,

The same can be said for a piano. Will a piano really damn us to hell? Does a piano really matter in the long run?

Where you do not make a "NECESSARY inference" regarding number of cups, some in our brotherhood do say it is necessary and would condemn you to hell for using multiple cups.

Likewise, you do make a necessary inference regarding instruments, and condemn those to hell who use them. Whereas, some of us are concluding IM is a similar matter of inference. One is not a Christian based on whether or not the use one or multiple cups, or sing with or without a piano.

-Sonny
Sonny, it could not have been said better! The answer is obvious, it boils down to what one believes and is comfortable with in determining what is a command, example or necessary inference. Mr. Crump asks "What's the big deal?" on an issue that he feels comfortable with, but brings out the guns on issues that he disagrees with.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 31st, 2011, 6:50 pm #15

Brother Crump,

The same can be said for a piano. Will a piano really damn us to hell? Does a piano really matter in the long run?

Where you do not make a "NECESSARY inference" regarding number of cups, some in our brotherhood do say it is necessary and would condemn you to hell for using multiple cups.

Likewise, you do make a necessary inference regarding instruments, and condemn those to hell who use them. Whereas, some of us are concluding IM is a similar matter of inference. One is not a Christian based on whether or not the use one or multiple cups, or sing with or without a piano.

-Sonny
Pardon me, Sonny, but I have never condemned anyone to hell for using IM. Please do not put words in my mouth that I never used. Perhaps you assume that all those who oppose IM in worship damn all IM-users to hell. If so, then you have made a very poor assumption. You know what is said about those who make assumptions: ass/u/me.

If people would really damn others to hell for using multiple cups, then they put themselves in the place of God.

Since we are forbidden to go above what is written in the New Testament regarding matters of doctrine, and since the New Testament has commanded us to sing and make melody in our hearts, then to ADD a different type of music to the vocal music that has been explicitly commanded is to defy the New Testament. That seems so difficult for progressives to understand. Had Jesus said, "Worship Me with music," then we would have had carte blanche to use whatever kinds of music we wished; to condemn IM under that condition would be wrong. As it stands in reality, however, is a piano really a moot issue? No, it is not. Will God damn those who use a piano or other musical instruments to hell? Only He has the answer. But consider this: Would you really want to gamble your eternity on that issue? I urge people not to put themselves in a position of finding out.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 31st, 2011, 8:28 pm #16

Sonny, it could not have been said better! The answer is obvious, it boils down to what one believes and is comfortable with in determining what is a command, example or necessary inference. Mr. Crump asks "What's the big deal?" on an issue that he feels comfortable with, but brings out the guns on issues that he disagrees with.
Brite wrote: "The answer is obvious[;] it boils down to what one believes and is comfortable with in determining what is a command, example or necessary inference."

Brite appears to be saying that, given a passage in the New Testament, one man sees it as CENI and obeys it, another man does not see it as CENI and does not obey it, yet the views of both men are right, because they are "comfortable" with their own views. With Brite's reasoning, members of the mainstream Church of Christ are right to be baptized, because they believe baptism is essential for salvation. Likewise, members of the Southern Baptist church are right if they refuse baptism, because they believe baptism is not essential for salvation (remember, I was once an organist for a Southern Baptist church, so I know their doctrine; some members there had NEVER been baptized). One group of people says baptism is essential for salvation; another says it is not, yet both are supposed to be "right" because they are comfortable with their views? That makes no sense.

With that kind of thinking, there is no absolute right and no absolute wrong; every man is right in his own eyes. That, indeed, is "progressive" thinking.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

July 31st, 2011, 10:07 pm #17

One of the problems that Mr. Crump has is his perception that he is educated enough to speak for others and enlighten us in what each of us believes. He is wrong in his perceptions in general, and wrong as to my beliefs, specifically.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 1st, 2011, 12:22 am #18

Oh good! Brite seems to imply there is absolute right and absolute wrong, but the progressives won't acknowledge that. Maybe Brite should tell us EXACTLY what his beliefs are, because he hasn't really given us a clear picture here (yes, I've given Brite an excellent opportunity to throw an insult here). Or maybe he'll emulate Dave and say, "I choose not to repeat myself," which is evasive. One minute Brite implies it's OK for people to choose what is CENI and what is not CENI, just as long as they are "comfortable" with their decision. The next minute he's implying that his beliefs are not understood, then he insults people because he doesn't make his beliefs crystal clear. The question is: Does Brite understand what he believes and does he believe what he understands? BTW, Brite never seems to be happy. I wonder why.
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Dave
Dave

August 1st, 2011, 1:42 am #19

Which one are you?

Taken from Wikipeidia.....
Three quarters of the congregations and 87% of the membership are described by the *The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement* as "mainstream", sharing a consensus on practice and theology. The remaining congregations may be grouped into four categories, the largest of which is the churches of Christ (non-institutional). Approximately 2,055 congregations fall in this category. The second group does not use separate Bible classes, and consists of approximately 1,100 congregations. A third group does not use multiple communion cups (approximately 550 congregations; this category overlaps somewhat with those congregations that do not use separate Bible classes for children). The fourth group "emphasize mutual edification by various leaders in the churches and oppose one person doing most of the preaching". This group includes roughly 130 congregations. These groups generally differ from the mainstream consensus in specific practices, rather than in theological perspectives, and tend to have smaller congregations on average.
William Crump said "Brite never seems to be happy. I wonder why.
First, William, that is a question, therefore should be followed by a question mark.
Second, I have a difficult time seeing that you would ever say that someone else is not happy. Your happiness lies in condemnation of others. That is not happiness from God.
Also, you made the comment of "Since we are forbidden to go above what is written in the New Testament regarding matters of doctrine, and since the New Testament has commanded us to sing and make melody in our hearts, then to ADD a different type of music to the vocal music that has been explicitly commanded is to defy the New Testament."
The problem lies heavily in that 'doctrines' are committed from men and not God. The only permissible doctrine of God is that of the great commission of us telling the world about Jesus, to love God with everything and to love your neighbor as yourself. Now then, aiding sing with instruments of music is not adding a different type of music. They are the same music. That is why the one who accompanies the singing plays the same music as the one who is singing. Bill, you have played the organ for a church before. You should know that.
Finally, Bill, Tom was right on it when he says that you are big on telling others what they think. It is your defense mechanism when you know you are wrong, and you are wrong often. It comes out of a need for self-preservation.


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Sonny
Sonny

August 1st, 2011, 2:14 am #20

Pardon me, Sonny, but I have never condemned anyone to hell for using IM. Please do not put words in my mouth that I never used. Perhaps you assume that all those who oppose IM in worship damn all IM-users to hell. If so, then you have made a very poor assumption. You know what is said about those who make assumptions: ass/u/me.

If people would really damn others to hell for using multiple cups, then they put themselves in the place of God.

Since we are forbidden to go above what is written in the New Testament regarding matters of doctrine, and since the New Testament has commanded us to sing and make melody in our hearts, then to ADD a different type of music to the vocal music that has been explicitly commanded is to defy the New Testament. That seems so difficult for progressives to understand. Had Jesus said, "Worship Me with music," then we would have had carte blanche to use whatever kinds of music we wished; to condemn IM under that condition would be wrong. As it stands in reality, however, is a piano really a moot issue? No, it is not. Will God damn those who use a piano or other musical instruments to hell? Only He has the answer. But consider this: Would you really want to gamble your eternity on that issue? I urge people not to put themselves in a position of finding out.
Brother Crump,

First, you have completely misapplied Brother Brite's logic in your first reply (as he has already briefly stated) to say he believes that everyone is o.k. and that interpreting Scripture does not matter. Furthermore, you have also projected a conversation that need not be when you start throwing Brother Dave into the mix on Brother Brite for no reason. You owe both Brother's an apology. Brother Brite is to be commended for being a mature spiritual man and not retaliating with the same juvenile behavior. This petty and childish behavior needs to stop.

Second, it would be polite and respectful to say Tom, Mr. Brite, Brother Brite, etc. instead of Brite...Brite...Brite. The tone is rude, condescending and arrogant. It would be like if he just said Crump this and Crump that intead of Bill, Mr. Crump, Dr. Crump, Brother Crump, etc.

Third, I am surprised, yet glad, to hear your tone is not one of condemnation toward those who use instruments in worship. Furthermore, thank you for correcting me in mistating your position/perspective. I did not intend to do such and will not in the future.

Fourth, your reasoning about better safe than sorry could be (and has been) used for the one cup topic and many other issues. Under this logic, better to use one cup and be safe than multiple ones and be sorry. Better to not eat in the building. Better to not ever say God's name. Better to not risk getting married. Better to not eat with sinners.

In fact, the Jewish rabbis taught under this conservative reasoning the following in the Talmud regarding the Sabbath and not working:
They couldn't wear dentures because it was a burden.
They couldn't look in a mirror for fear they might pluck a gray hair and the law forbids plucking.
Scribes could not write as lifting the pen was a burden.
Chicken eggs were thrown out because the chicken was working.

Basically, they made the Sabbath into something to dread.

In the first Century, Jesus has plenty to say to the Pharisees about their legalism and binding interpretations where God in His Word has not declared such as binding.

This is something for all Christians in all traditions to think about.

-Sonny
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