Honoring the Old Testament and Law

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June 16th, 2016, 2:59 pm #1

Churches should bear in mind that the Old Testament was the only Bible that early Christians had, until the forming of the canon which gradually took place during the first three centuries of the Christian age. Timothy was praised for knowing the Scriptures which would make him wise unto salvation. His mother and grandmother had raised him to honor what is now our Old Testament. Paul shows us that the Old Testament was written as an example for us, and his books, as are the entire New Testament, just loaded with Old Testament references. The writer to the Hebrews shows how that many Old Testament passages must be understood in their figurative sense.

Paul with all the good that he did showed grace as answer to an individual's failure to keep the whole law, as did James in his letter. At the same time Paul said that it was only through "law" that we know evil, and can really appreciate the grace that is in Christ.

Unfortunately, however, many have corrupted grace which Paul talks about in Romans 6, verse 1. Many churches and individuals have corrupted grace as Paul warns, to the neglect of law. Granted, the law today, is the law of liberty, but blatant transgressions are forgiven upon repentance and subsequent reformation.

Many today, are like Thomas Jefferson, who make their own New Testament, with whole passages either ignored, skipped over, rejected, and not read. Preachers among others are good at ignoring and skipping around verses that don't fit their prejudices. This is particularly noticeable when New Testament passages which clearly warn about the wrath of God are omitted from their public readings as well as their teaching.

I suggest that Old Testament should once again gain its rightful place in Christian doctrine.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 16th, 2016, 5:49 pm #2

So true: much of the New Testament and especially by Paul is a commentary on the Law of Moses which was given because of transgression.

Some of the universities bonded with the NACC have spend lots of time on the Exodus and of Revelation. They use the exodus as a PATTERN for their false religions rather than as an EXAMPLE or pattern.

It is amazing that they can cover Exodus and Revelation and totally miss the BULL'S EYE THING. Most of the discorders mock the concept of prophecies debunking the New Testament's showing how they were fulfilled. They also mock TYPES even when they are often. TUPOS means an example intended to be imitated.
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Bill
Bill

June 17th, 2016, 12:22 am #3

Churches should bear in mind that the Old Testament was the only Bible that early Christians had, until the forming of the canon which gradually took place during the first three centuries of the Christian age. Timothy was praised for knowing the Scriptures which would make him wise unto salvation. His mother and grandmother had raised him to honor what is now our Old Testament. Paul shows us that the Old Testament was written as an example for us, and his books, as are the entire New Testament, just loaded with Old Testament references. The writer to the Hebrews shows how that many Old Testament passages must be understood in their figurative sense.

Paul with all the good that he did showed grace as answer to an individual's failure to keep the whole law, as did James in his letter. At the same time Paul said that it was only through "law" that we know evil, and can really appreciate the grace that is in Christ.

Unfortunately, however, many have corrupted grace which Paul talks about in Romans 6, verse 1. Many churches and individuals have corrupted grace as Paul warns, to the neglect of law. Granted, the law today, is the law of liberty, but blatant transgressions are forgiven upon repentance and subsequent reformation.

Many today, are like Thomas Jefferson, who make their own New Testament, with whole passages either ignored, skipped over, rejected, and not read. Preachers among others are good at ignoring and skipping around verses that don't fit their prejudices. This is particularly noticeable when New Testament passages which clearly warn about the wrath of God are omitted from their public readings as well as their teaching.

I suggest that Old Testament should once again gain its rightful place in Christian doctrine.
Christians can study the OT as the history of the early life of the world, the history of the ancient Israelites, and the era of the Law of Moses, but surely Scripture is not suggesting that Christians take up the Law of Moses again with all its dietary restrictions, sacrifices, and so forth. To do so is to make null the sacrifice of Christ, as Paul so noted. For example the Old Law called for "an eye for an eye"; Jesus ended that as well as the rest of the Law by dying on the cross (which Scrip, Donnie, and Ken now loathe).
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June 17th, 2016, 4:14 am #4

There are many great rewards for knowing BOTH New Testament as well as Old Testament, and a life of study can be given to them.

As a start, the instructions of Paul in the letters to Timothy, "Study [give diligence] to show yourself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing [handling aright] the Word of God." We would need to understand it from compartmentalizing it, and subjecting it to scrutiny using New Testament principles, or teaching.

I would divide the Law [Genesis through Deuteronomy] as "tribal law." Joshua and Judges stand out as conquest and low level secular law. The books of Samuel through 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

The major and minor prophets shows God working in history, and his pronouncement of judgment on governments, and the need for believers and prophets to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for Truth. There is a growth of awareness of other people than the tribal individuals as Elijah and Elisha become regional prophets, and eventually the major prophets are known through the world as the Babylonians captivity begins.

The psalms and other literature books are good for ways to pray and to accept and even question God at times.

As a start, Jesus pulls "love God" and "love man" from the second statement of Moses 10 commandments, where he said that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and might [Deut. 6:4], and the second commandment from Leviticus 19:18. These are stated as the foundation of all morality (Matthew 22:37-40), guiding all the 10 commandments and the various 613 commands in the entire Old Testament.

You can then understand the 10 commandments in context of the great two commandments that Jesus gave. The other of the 613 or so commandments must be understood in the context of Christ's teaching in the gospels and in Paul's and the other writers of the New Testament epistles. But there is a handshaking or symbiotic relationship between law and gospel, and knowledge of both testaments are very helpful to get the full picture.

One helpful point of view are the commands that Jesus puts down since they don't register the heart. He emphasizes it is the inner condition of the individual that makes all the difference, and not the outward show. This may be the great secret that law emphasizes external observable behavior, but the true measure of righteousness comes from within. This is particularly pointed out in Jeremiah 7:1-11.

Pillars of the Old Testament that Jesus "generally" weakens are: temple, Sabbath, food ritual, and Moses. He strengthens treatment of others, respect for God, Abraham, inner intentions [heart] more than outward show [ritual], and the temple becomes people of God.

What is really a big deal, is the difference between the goals of Joshua with his wars of conquest and the peace that Jesus emphasizes in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). Joshua, from my understanding, is mentioned only twice in the New Testament and doesn't receive much attention.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 17th, 2016, 5:28 pm #5

Thanks! I will try not to mess up your thread. One of my old churches has A NEW DAY program which intends to collect all of your time and money to plant churches following the same WORKS pattern. However, Hebrews mentions Joshua in the context of your thread:

Heb. 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb. 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb. 4:8 For if Jesus [Joshua] had given them REST, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb. 4:9 There remaineth therefore a REST to the people of God.
Heb. 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his OWN works, as God did from his.

Our rest now is katapauo which means "whatever you are doing to lade burdens on people JUST STOP IT.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 20th, 2016, 8:09 am #6

There are many great rewards for knowing BOTH New Testament as well as Old Testament, and a life of study can be given to them.

As a start, the instructions of Paul in the letters to Timothy, "Study [give diligence] to show yourself approved, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing [handling aright] the Word of God." We would need to understand it from compartmentalizing it, and subjecting it to scrutiny using New Testament principles, or teaching.

I would divide the Law [Genesis through Deuteronomy] as "tribal law." Joshua and Judges stand out as conquest and low level secular law. The books of Samuel through 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

The major and minor prophets shows God working in history, and his pronouncement of judgment on governments, and the need for believers and prophets to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for Truth. There is a growth of awareness of other people than the tribal individuals as Elijah and Elisha become regional prophets, and eventually the major prophets are known through the world as the Babylonians captivity begins.

The psalms and other literature books are good for ways to pray and to accept and even question God at times.

As a start, Jesus pulls "love God" and "love man" from the second statement of Moses 10 commandments, where he said that we are to love God with all our heart, soul, and might [Deut. 6:4], and the second commandment from Leviticus 19:18. These are stated as the foundation of all morality (Matthew 22:37-40), guiding all the 10 commandments and the various 613 commands in the entire Old Testament.

You can then understand the 10 commandments in context of the great two commandments that Jesus gave. The other of the 613 or so commandments must be understood in the context of Christ's teaching in the gospels and in Paul's and the other writers of the New Testament epistles. But there is a handshaking or symbiotic relationship between law and gospel, and knowledge of both testaments are very helpful to get the full picture.

One helpful point of view are the commands that Jesus puts down since they don't register the heart. He emphasizes it is the inner condition of the individual that makes all the difference, and not the outward show. This may be the great secret that law emphasizes external observable behavior, but the true measure of righteousness comes from within. This is particularly pointed out in Jeremiah 7:1-11.

Pillars of the Old Testament that Jesus "generally" weakens are: temple, Sabbath, food ritual, and Moses. He strengthens treatment of others, respect for God, Abraham, inner intentions [heart] more than outward show [ritual], and the temple becomes people of God.

What is really a big deal, is the difference between the goals of Joshua with his wars of conquest and the peace that Jesus emphasizes in the Beatitudes (Matthew 5). Joshua, from my understanding, is mentioned only twice in the New Testament and doesn't receive much attention.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Scripture,

This is a great outline of how we should study the Old Testament -- the major divisions: the Pentateuch, the prophets, the psalms and other literature, etc. Hopefully, this thread will help us better understand the expression "the law" -- frequently mentioned in both O.T. and N.T. (There appears to be so many different, specific laws identified in the Old Testament, e.g., "the law of the burnt offering," etc.)

You may already have this in mind: that in our study of "the law vs. grace," we will be able to contrast "the law of Moses," referenced not only in the Old Testament but also in the New Testament, and the "the law of Christ" referenced in Galatians 6:2.

Thanks for the great message above. [Great "moderating" job regarding the comment about "the cross (which Scrip, Donnie, and Ken now loathe)." Cool. ] [/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 20th, 2016, 5:56 pm #7

Scripture notes: I would divide the Law [Genesis through Deuteronomy] as "tribal law." Joshua and Judges stand out as conquest and low level secular law. The books of Samuel through 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

The major and minor prophets shows God working in history, and his pronouncement of judgment on governments, and the need for believers and prophets to sacrifice their lives and fortunes for Truth. There is a growth of awareness of other people than the tribal individuals as Elijah and Elisha become regional prophets, and eventually the major prophets are known through the world as the Babylonians captivity begins.


Scripture proves that we can still fit all of the clergy who understands that statement on an old Joy Buss.

Scripture says: 2 Chronicles show the futility of hierarchical religious government--which suggests another age is coming with a true ruler, such as the Christ.

I know of no present professor or preacher who does not say say that <a>
Dianna has mentioned Burton Coffman who is the only person living or dead who grasps that God didn't command that to which numerous passages says that Go ABANDONED them "because of transgression." I know of no one who understands the "transgression" or who does not attend University Workshops (Church of Christ and the NACC) using the EXODUS as a PATTERN where according to Shelly "you can be a greater-than Moses" or even Jesus Christ.

Eph. 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the HOUSEHOLD of God;
Eph. 2:20 And are built upon [Educated by] the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


If you build performance worship on the Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned Levites you CANNOT be part of the houshold of God.

1Tim. 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God,
the pillar and ground of THE TRUTH.</a>


THE TRUTH is THE WORD, Logos or Regulative Principle which OUTLAWS any "self-authored" songs or sermons using personal references to AID the Word including singing, playing instruments or acting.

That is why according to Amos 8 and Revelation 18 God have been their "and will not pass by again" never, ever: the musical prophecy John calls sorcery is removed from the HOUSHOLD OF GOD at the same time Jesus visits to remove the LAMPS which like the Menoroh was symbolic of the seven spirits OF God all devoted to teaching the Word. Isaiah 11:1-4.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 20th, 2016, 5:59 pm #8

Donnie's statement about LAW and GRACE needs expansion: there are several terms which define the two.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 20th, 2016, 10:58 pm #9

There is no historic Scholar who did not know that the Law of Moses was added because of transgression: This law went a long way in protecting the poor from the rich and famous. It legislated against the lawless and had no intention or effect on the human spirit or conscience. The festivals now used as patterns for "worship authorization" were for muster-aged males to keep them prepared to go to battle. Older males, women or children were not required to attend and most never did. The elders "fired" God and demanded a king so they could win battles and "worship like the nations" meaning Gentiles. God gave them their wish but declared hands-off and would not save them from the captivity and death sentence imposed because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

On the Psalms. The Argument Prefixed by Hippolytus, Bishop of Rome, to His Exposition of the Psalms.

http://www.piney.com/FathHippoFragments.html

On: The book of Psalms contains new doctrine after the law of Moses.
And after the writing of Moses, it is the second book of doctrine.
Now, after the death of Moses and Joshua, and after the judges, arose David,
who was deemed worthy of bearing the name of father of the Saviour himself;

and he first gave to the Hebrews a new style of psalmody, by which he abrogates the ordinances established by Moses with respect to sacrifices, and introduces the new hymn and a new style of jubilant praise in the worship of God; and throughout his whole ministry he teaches very many other things that went beyond the law of Moses. 67<b></b>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on June 20th, 2016, 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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June 21st, 2016, 10:59 pm #10

It's so inspiring to place the Old Testament under the lens of Christ. In my own feeble way I have tried to understand the relationship between law and grace.

"So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good." Romans 7:12. Paul.

"And sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind. For apart from the law sin is dead." Romans 7:8.

The commandments give information important to living a holy life. They in themselves do not make a person a sinner, but identify when a person sins. That is, for example, the commandment not to bear false witness. Following this commandment, even with its New Testament expression, is the way of life holy and just and good. Sinfulness derives not from external commands but from a selfish and jerk-like character. The new birth is supposed to deliver us from our own selfishness.

However, taking the commandments superficially without belief in Christ and faith toward God, simply reminds someone how sinful they are. This was no doubt the problem with many Pharisees during Jesus' lifetime, who equated faithfulness to God simply on how well they kept the commandments. It is possible, for example, to never bear false witness, yet never do anything to help a neighbor or a brother.

Law regulates outward behavior, but Jesus centered more on the inner spirituality. "These people honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. They worship in vain, teaching as doctrines, the commands of men." Matthew 15:8-9. It is possible to keep all God's legal commands, for example the New Testament expression of each of the ten commandments, and yet ignore the poor and imprisoned. See Matthew 25:31-46 for Jesus' description where we must go beyond just not violating a moral commandment. We must reach out to the poor and imprisoned.

Fear of God for not keeping His commandments may be a start for Christian behavior, but if that is as far as a convert can go, it may present him with "producing in 'me' coveting of every kind." Perhaps Paul has in mind that coveting never changes the heart, but on recognizing the gift of Christ, we are brought to true repentance: "God's kindness is intended to lead 'you' to repentance." Romans 2:4. Christ's offering brings us from covetousness to being generous in our gifts to other--just the opposite of covetousness.

What can you contribute to this discussion? Maybe some of our quiet readers can help us on this.
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