Dave
Dave

August 15th, 2010, 4:04 am #41

Donnie said...."But churches of Christ do not use or play inanimate musical devices in their assemblies."

That is not true and you yourself have proved that.
You admitted that there are SOME churches of Christ that use musical instruments (99.98$%, remmember?)
Even if it isn't some, as you have agreed to, even if it is only one, then you still deliberately spoke a lie.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 15th, 2010, 4:42 am #42

For the ones who do come here and cop a view, why do you think that they don't post or make comments?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The original intent of this website was to alert churches of Christ that change agents operating in the brotherhood were coming their way to transform them from the New Testament way to Community Church-ism.

Yes, it's true that some inept elders of certain congregations have succumbed to following the schemes of change agents -- these few congregations are now Community Churches. Change agents are essentially followers and disciples of Rick Warren of the Saddleback Community Church in California which in 2000-2001 was some 16,000+ membership strong. Their message to already large congregations such as Richland Hills, Oak Hills, Madison and others was to be a mega church just like Community Churches.

In the case of Madison, the efforts of the change agents to take over the congregation may have been thwarted because of websites such as ConcernedMembers. The alarm may have been quite late for Madison as the split had already taken place. But I am thankful that the name "of Christ" has not been dropped altogether, even though in the new worship guide of late, the church's name occupies two lines [intentionally? and notice the emphasis] as:

[/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="5" face="times]Madison Church[/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="2" face="times]OF[/color] [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]CHRIST[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This website has its own message and goal. It just happens to have a discussion forum, again, originally intended to revolve around the Change Movement -- its proponents and its destructive activities.

I believe that most of the readers are already members of the church and congregations interested in what's going on in the brotherhood. We have received many e-mail correspondences from individual Christians, from elders and ministers, and at times from followers of the Change Movement. On one hand, many readers come to this site to learn and be warned but with little or nothing to contribute. On the other hand, the change makers are here to make noise and justify their liberal agenda.

Let's not forget that these forums are moderated, and for that reason the hesitancy to post should be taken into consideration.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 15th, 2010, 5:44 am #43

Donnie said...."But churches of Christ do not use or play inanimate musical devices in their assemblies."

That is not true and you yourself have proved that.
You admitted that there are SOME churches of Christ that use musical instruments (99.98$%, remmember?)
Even if it isn't some, as you have agreed to, even if it is only one, then you still deliberately spoke a lie.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

No. Of the very few churches that use mechanical music devices in the assembly...

1. Some have dropped the name "of Christ" and have affiliated themselves with the Association of Community Churches; e.g., Oak Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"].

2. Some identify themselves now with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ denomination.

3. Others no longer desire to go the New Testament way all the way but still want to retain the name "church of Christ."

Net result: churches of Christ that reject the participation of mechanically-operated musical devices in their assemblies.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 15th, 2010, 6:12 am #44

At this submission, the sitemeter showed nearly 1,534,000 hits. Donnie, is that the total number of hits since CM began or is that for this year so far?

People who want this site to fail will say that the number of posts equals the number of visitors. If there are few posts, then there must be few visitors. The stats show that reasoning to be false. As I said earlier, far more people are likely to read the messages but are not willing to participate in the discussions.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dr. Crump,

What the sitemeter shows (nearly 1,534,000) is the number of visits from all 5 forums since CM began.

In the early years (2001 - 2004), the average number of visitors was between 400 and 500 daily.

The estimated number of page views per visit is 5.[/color]

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Dave
Dave

August 16th, 2010, 2:26 am #45

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

No. Of the very few churches that use mechanical music devices in the assembly...

1. Some have dropped the name "of Christ" and have affiliated themselves with the Association of Community Churches; e.g., Oak Hills Church [formerly "of Christ"].

2. Some identify themselves now with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ denomination.

3. Others no longer desire to go the New Testament way all the way but still want to retain the name "church of Christ."

Net result: churches of Christ that reject the participation of mechanically-operated musical devices in their assemblies.[/color]
Donnie,
Let's look at your number 3
"3. Others no longer desire to go the New Testament way all the way but still want to retain the name "church of Christ."

Whether one uses instruments or not has nothing to do with the New Testament Way....it has already been proven time and time again. You and others like you continue to TRY and make instrumental music a sin. It is not and never will be such. Again, time and time this Truth has been proven by the very same Scriptures that you continue to abuse.

So cry and whine all you want to no avail. Your number three doesn't hold water. Those who bear the "church of Christ" name and use instrumental music are not in violation of God's commands.

Oh, and Donnnie......you are more than welcome to edit, moderate, and/or delete any message of Truth that I post. This your site, and it would certainly be your prerogative to suppress the Truth at any time. As long as the tummy trimmer and ultimate chopper continue to advertise here, you will always have the finances to say anything you wish. Your constitution also backs that.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 16th, 2010, 5:52 am #46

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The New Testament way has much to do with it. You can never prove the use and participation of inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints in the New Testament, even in the Old Testament for that matter.

Not by God's COMMAND.

Not by EXAMPLE.

Not by IMPLICATION or NECESSARY INFERENCE.

But wait. Oh, YES:

-- By man's opinion
-- By man's conclusion or implication
-- By man's command
-- By man's example
-- By man's desire
-- By man's option
-- By man's love for musical idolatry
-- By man's tradition [the Roman Catholic Church started it]
-- By man's disregard for the law of silence of Scripture
-- ... and on and on.

As to #3, all the congregation needs to do that wants to retain the name "church of Christ" while playing the sackbut, dulcimer or piano "for the Lord" is to officially join the Christian Church. There are churches in the Christian Church denomination that carry the name "Church of Christ."

No, Dave, I don't see any reason for your post to be edited unless you use expletives -- you've never done that and you won't. In fact, it's just the opposite -- we want readers to know the real Dave and his opinions and viewpoints.[/color]
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Ray
Ray

August 16th, 2010, 2:40 pm #47

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

The question is NOT: "WHO" is the Holy Spirit PERSON in the papal-contrived Trinity Doctrine that the Christian is grieving?

Rather, the question is: "WHOSE Spirit" -- which is holy -- is the Christian grieving? The answer is: the HOLY Spirit OF God. Notice the adjective "HOLY" and the preposition "OF" -- meaning that "God's holy Spirit" is not a being nor is it a name. You will never find "God the Holy Spirit" in the Bible. The Pope invented that.

Ray, I still do not know your church affiliation. I know about your stance on the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. But churches of Christ do not use or play inanimate musical devices in their assemblies.

I could be wrong in that maybe you were a member of the same church, but your leaders decided to add the mechanical operation of musical instruments in your worship. If that's the case, I would urge you and your leaders to get rid of musical objects and return to "the old paths."[/color]
Donnie,

I am and have always been all my life a member of the Lord's Church, the church of Christ. I never stop praying for you and your followers and the followers of John and Ken to return to the old paths - not the old paths of your human error not the old paths of the mid-20th century - the old paths of the Word of God.

Even with regard to the Holy Spirit, you and Ken do not teach the old paths of the Lord's Church, the church of Christ, the ancient pre-papal church, nor of God's Word. You teach the deviant paths of Armstrongism and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do you ignore God's Word on His nature:


Romans 8:26-27 - Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God

Romans 14:17-18 - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Romans 15:16 - to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:30 - I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 - For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 - Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. [NOte - cross reference Acts 2:38-39]

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:16-17 - that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faiththat you, being rooted and grounded in love

Ephesians 4:4-6 - There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 1:6-8 - which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growingas it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-5 - remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

And this is just a sampling from Paul's inspired writings in God's Word. I have not even noted the inpired words from the Gospels on God's nature in Jesus' baptism and HIs words to the apostles at the last supper.

What inspires you to reject God's Word? It should not surprise faithful followers of God who have seen how you reject God's inspired words in the older testament which teach against your beliefs that you would also reject God's inspred words from the New Testament that you do not agree with.

God bless your return to His true path and not human old paths.
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Dave
Dave

August 16th, 2010, 3:48 pm #48

The links to the comments in pictures below:

http://www.piney.com/FathIrenaHerII.html#THE

http://www.piney.com/Augustine.Faith.Creed.html

Those who began to define the Godhead as OPPOSITE to the three person (gods) of all pagans, did not include the Spirit OF Christ or the Spirit OF God as a separated being. Augustine who wrote the most warned against making dogma out of the concept. He quotes some of the views at that time.

I will expand later on the COMMUNICATION of the Holy Spirit. Jesus spoke the WORDS of God because He had the Spirit of God WITHOUT METER (so metron can be read). This fits the pattern that SPEAK is the opposite of poetry (meter) music. Speak as in rhetoric would define a hypocrite.






If the preachers or musicians speak FOR the Spirit in the morning, Scripture and all recorded evidence proves that they are being led by a lying spirit or The spirit OF lying which is NOT another person.
Ray,
Donnie used to post regularly at Faithsite.com. He says the same things here that he did there. There was a man that posted there, by the name of Walt, who many of us claimed used the fruity loop de loop logic. Donnie is no different. You prove by Scriptures that he is wrong, but he denies them, changes the subject/and or uses his same ole logic.....his opinion instead of what God wants.

He says that David is wrong in the OT, because David was never commanded to use instruments of music. His logic there is thinking that David needed a commandment to do so. The Psalms prove Donnie wrong, but even when he was proven wrong he reverted to saying then that you have to use the instruments that were listed in the OT, including his now famous sackbut. So even when you do prove him wrong, he still pulls it along until you just smile and realize that some people are going to do what they want instead of what God wants no matter what you say or do.
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Donnie
Donnie

August 16th, 2010, 5:00 pm #49

Donnie,

I am and have always been all my life a member of the Lord's Church, the church of Christ. I never stop praying for you and your followers and the followers of John and Ken to return to the old paths - not the old paths of your human error not the old paths of the mid-20th century - the old paths of the Word of God.

Even with regard to the Holy Spirit, you and Ken do not teach the old paths of the Lord's Church, the church of Christ, the ancient pre-papal church, nor of God's Word. You teach the deviant paths of Armstrongism and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Why do you ignore God's Word on His nature:


Romans 8:26-27 - Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God

Romans 14:17-18 - For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.

Romans 15:16 - to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:30 - I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf

1 Corinthians 2:2-5 - For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 - Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 - And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. [NOte - cross reference Acts 2:38-39]

2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:16-17 - that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faiththat you, being rooted and grounded in love

Ephesians 4:4-6 - There is one body and one Spiritjust as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Colossians 1:6-8 - which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growingas it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 1:3-5 - remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

And this is just a sampling from Paul's inspired writings in God's Word. I have not even noted the inpired words from the Gospels on God's nature in Jesus' baptism and HIs words to the apostles at the last supper.

What inspires you to reject God's Word? It should not surprise faithful followers of God who have seen how you reject God's inspired words in the older testament which teach against your beliefs that you would also reject God's inspred words from the New Testament that you do not agree with.

God bless your return to His true path and not human old paths.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

I completely agree with all the passages you quoted.

1. The passages do not prove the papacy-contrived Trinity Doctrine that the Spirit is another being or the third person.

2. The holy Spirit OF[/color] Christ or God is NOT another BEING. It has the full capacity to intercede, sanctify, strengthen.

3. You do not comprehend the "gift of a/the holy spirit" in Acts 2:37,38. Please read a PARALLEL passage in Acts 3:19 -- what does the parallel passage in Acts 3:19 say in regard to the following events [really figure it out]:

-- Repent in Acts 3:19 = "Repent"
-- Be baptized in Acts 3:19 = "Be converted"
-- So that your sins may be remitted in Acts 3:19 = "That your sins may be blotted out"
-- Shall receive the gift of a holy spirit in Acts 3:19 =
[what do you think it says, Ray?]_____ _____ ______ _____ _____ _____

4. Gender designation: There are more references that identify the HOLY spirit OF Christ/God as "it" or "which" than as "he" or "who/whom." New Testament Greek translations are bound to assign a gender designation where there is no gender involved in order for a statement to make sense.

We will expose the Trinity fallacy further later on.
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Donnie
Donnie

August 16th, 2010, 7:14 pm #50

Ray,
Donnie used to post regularly at Faithsite.com. He says the same things here that he did there. There was a man that posted there, by the name of Walt, who many of us claimed used the fruity loop de loop logic. Donnie is no different. You prove by Scriptures that he is wrong, but he denies them, changes the subject/and or uses his same ole logic.....his opinion instead of what God wants.

He says that David is wrong in the OT, because David was never commanded to use instruments of music. His logic there is thinking that David needed a commandment to do so. The Psalms prove Donnie wrong, but even when he was proven wrong he reverted to saying then that you have to use the instruments that were listed in the OT, including his now famous sackbut. So even when you do prove him wrong, he still pulls it along until you just smile and realize that some people are going to do what they want instead of what God wants no matter what you say or do.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The truth is that there's no directive from God to mechanically operate musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints. Musical instruments were ordained and used by man. By Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3, KJV) to worship the golden image -- in case you're wondering about the "sackbut." By David, king of Israel and musician, who ordained them (II Chron. 29:27). What would you expect from a skilled musician who made a deistic decision to play ... before the Lord?

Truth does not change even with circular logic.

Repetition is the key to learning.[/color]
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