Holy Spirit: Wayne Jackson

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 7th, 2010, 6:07 pm #21

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Great question, Ken. The "what" or "why" or "when" -- well, numerous examples and instances are mentioned in the gospels especially. But "HOW"? Hmmm!!! That requires a real understanding of the truth. CLUE: Ken has already explained that.

Another seemingly difficult question for those who espouse the Nicean-approved Trinity doctrine to answer is this one:

"Why was the Holy Spirit [Trinity Doctrine's THIRD PERSON] -- as a "SEPARATE/ANOTHER PERSON or BEING" -- not included in the personal relationship and communication between the Father and the Son?"

"Where was the Holy Spirit 'PERSON' when Jesus said PERSON-ally, "I and my Father are one"?
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Richard Rogers is adduced as the authoriity by that branch of the Church of Christ who believe that the Holy Spirit as a person literally indwells the literal body as the promise of Acts 2:38.

Some quick notes:

http://www.piney.com/Richard.Rogers.Hol ... lling.html

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Dave
Dave

August 7th, 2010, 7:45 pm #22

"It is impossible for Dave to ignore me, because I get under his skin with the truth, which irks him and compels him to respond with derogatory comments."

William Crump, noticed your comment above and just wondered.....when you have to tell someone that you are getting under their skin, could it be because you have been rifely stung by that person's comment and are only trying to retaliate?
Again, I only wonder....

Yes Donnie, I talk about the 'boys' here, as in the good ole boys society continuing there never ending witch hunt here ("How does this involve secret oaths and covenants", in your own words). NO, Donnie, this isn't an adult religious discussion.

A discussion only occurs when two people are engaged in said communication. You guys have to actually add something to the conversation for it to be considered an adult religious discussion. One can only hope.......

Oh yea Donnie.....I just haven't noticed the advertisement before.......if slander of the churches isn't enough to shut the site down......there is the tummy trimmer to keep this gloom and doom site open.
"Invisible Tummy Trimmer
Look 10 pounds thinner instantly! Look slim in everything you wear.
As Seen On TV."

The best one on the home page though, is the fine print...."These web sites are not part of or approved by the respective Churches listed below."

You got that right Donnie. Nice touch Donnie.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 7th, 2010, 10:18 pm #23

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The point is: we all simply discuss religious matters and issues without the unnecessary adjectives, phrases and expressions about posters. Leave that task to the psychiatrist, psychologist and social worker, even to the politician.

Observation: That "This web site is not part of or approved by any of the Churches listed below."

That is the truth -- there is no pretense there. Actually the Scripture makes a stronger declarative: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." As in the early church, members of the body of Christ, even in this 21st century, need to know. Eph. 4:14 says, "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Observation: [Did you miss this one?] That "This web site is not part of or approved by the Madison Church of Christ."

That is the truth also -- there is no pretense there. While half of the membership [has] remained, about 1,500 members [have] left. There was not only a divided eldership (among those that resigned or left and those that remained) but also a divided congregation. Even the congregation now is divided between "traditional" and "contemporary." Some may call it "accommodation"; others call it [and the Bible says]: NOT "perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 7th, 2010, 10:22 pm #24

"It is impossible for Dave to ignore me, because I get under his skin with the truth, which irks him and compels him to respond with derogatory comments."

William Crump, noticed your comment above and just wondered.....when you have to tell someone that you are getting under their skin, could it be because you have been rifely stung by that person's comment and are only trying to retaliate?
Again, I only wonder....

Yes Donnie, I talk about the 'boys' here, as in the good ole boys society continuing there never ending witch hunt here ("How does this involve secret oaths and covenants", in your own words). NO, Donnie, this isn't an adult religious discussion.

A discussion only occurs when two people are engaged in said communication. You guys have to actually add something to the conversation for it to be considered an adult religious discussion. One can only hope.......

Oh yea Donnie.....I just haven't noticed the advertisement before.......if slander of the churches isn't enough to shut the site down......there is the tummy trimmer to keep this gloom and doom site open.
"Invisible Tummy Trimmer
Look 10 pounds thinner instantly! Look slim in everything you wear.
As Seen On TV."

The best one on the home page though, is the fine print...."These web sites are not part of or approved by the respective Churches listed below."

You got that right Donnie. Nice touch Donnie.
Observation: I rest my case. Dave is not able to ignore my comments. Otherwise, he would not respond to my posts. But I could have predicted that, anyway. Besides, Dave retaliates with derogatory comments because Donnie, Ken, I, and others at CM get under his skin and sting him with the Truth. But I don't think Dave would ever admit that as a fact, even though it's quite true.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 9th, 2010, 6:27 am #25

Question: If we are saved and have a relationship with God then we are connected with God through His Spirit. Think, if you can blaspheme God and Christ and be forgiven but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven, then the Spirit of God has to be a Person

That's not exactly what Jesus said.

Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said,
......He hath Beelzebub, and
......by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.


They say that the spirit IN Jesus was the Devil.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you,
......All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,
......and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost
......hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Now look closely: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was saying that the Spirit in Jesus was an UNCLEAN spirit.

Mark 3:30 Because they said, HE hath an UNclean spirit.

Instead, the Spirit that Jesus had was A HOLY Spirit perfectly clean.

Now, look at the supporting evidence.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


The Spirit OF Christ is the Advocate or Comforter.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
......And if any man sin,
......we have an advocate (Comforter) with the Father,
......Jesus Christ the righteous:

So, what about saying that THE Spirit which was IN Jesus Christ as a clean or HOLY Spirit was NOT His at all? Can people believe that the spirit that Jesus HATH was a HE and another person standing outside of Jesus? That leaves Jesus without His own Spirit or Mind as Paul draws the parallel in 1 Corinthians 2.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Phil Barnes of the Madison congregation preached on "love" as the identifier of the Christian. Good for him to admonish [including posters who charge that anyone who speaks the truth in a heated discussion does not have love] that there's so much more to love than just feelings or the emotion. His thrust, and I agree with him, that love is shown through sacrifice, through giving. [By the way, Dave, you are confusing "love" (emotional or feelings to you) in I Cor. 13 with the love in John 14:15 -- "If ye love me, keep my commandments"; in John 15:13 -- "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

Now, the discussion of God's holy Spirit:

Before Phil Barnes preached on "love," part of his introduction had to deal with God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. [While I may not have fully heard -- and I may be going deaf in my old age], he mentioned "the Assembly of God" ... about our preoccupation with "doctrine and doctrine" ...about "maybe the need to learn" [from other beliefs?] ... about being "raised in the churches of Christ."

Personally, I can't handle it when somebody says "being raised in the churches [plural] of Christ." OK, that was a misstatement. He meant "raised in the church [singular 'body'] of Christ." Speaking of "churches of Christ," that should be understood as "congregations" of the church or body of Christ. Be careful, preachers!

My conclusion is that Phil Barnes takes time to read or browse ConcernedMembers. I could be wrongly making this assumption. But I think it's more than a coincidence that he would begin his sermon on "love" with the mention of the "Assemblies of God" and "God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit." Short of actually uttering "the Trinity." So far in the years that he's been employed at Madison, he has not said "Trinity" yet.

And this was not the first time that he had to bring up the subject of the Holy Spirit ... while we're currently studying the subject of: "Holy Spirit: Third Person or the Mind of Christ?"

Back in June, Phil Barnes' sermon was titled "Guide" in reference to the subject of the Holy Spirit. In that sermon, in short, he mentioned the following expressions: Creator, Redeemer, Judge, Comforter, Guide, God-speaking, farmer/harvester (in reference to the "fruit of the Spirit"), connecting, taking residence in the heart--a strong implication of the "personhood" of God's Spirit. Again, the "Trinity" [doctrine] was not mentioned--just implied.

Another coincidence? More than a coincidence? That was about the time when we were discussing the thread "Nice Song" where I noted that in the very popular hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy!" ... hymnbooks used in churches of Christ have the line removed: "God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!"

Instead, hymnbooks have that line replaced with: "God over all, and blest eternally."

Watch out:

(1) Research the history of the Nicean doctrine of "the Trinity."
(2) Are we to follow the papal decree: Father, Son, Mary the Mother of God?
(3) Are we to follow the Assembly of God practices of the Holy Spirit and miracles?
(4) Are we to follow the teaching of the liberals and progressives "in the church" the DIRECT OPERATION of the holy Spirit of God upon the Christian?
(5) What did the great men of the Restoration Movement actually believe and teach in regard to the holy Spirit of Christ?[/color]
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change agent
change agent

August 9th, 2010, 4:57 pm #26

Donnie, i have purposefully stayed away, and just occasionally stopped by. I just wonder if there is anything you consider so small you would not argue about.

"Personally, I can't handle it when somebody says "being raised in the churches [plural] of Christ." OK, that was a misstatement. He meant "raised in the church [singular 'body'] of Christ." Speaking of "churches of Christ," that should be understood as "congregations" of the church or body of Christ. Be careful, preachers!"

Luke, Paul and John i suppose should be corrected when they used the word "churches" so many times. Any one who would find the need to argue about the use of the word "churches" is not going to find very many folks who would like to have any kind of conversation with. Maybe that's why very few visit this site. Peace
change agent
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Donnie
Donnie

August 9th, 2010, 5:24 pm #27

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Change Agent,

Welcome back!!!

It's just one of my idiosyncrasies -- I am a very detailed person. You may ignore the remark; I was just trying to get the reader's attention.

What would you like to say about the topic regarding the "Spirit OF the Lord"? WHAT is it? Or, WHO is it [to others who believe that the "holy Spirit OF Christ" is the third PERSON]?[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 9th, 2010, 6:14 pm #28

Donnie, i have purposefully stayed away, and just occasionally stopped by. I just wonder if there is anything you consider so small you would not argue about.

"Personally, I can't handle it when somebody says "being raised in the churches [plural] of Christ." OK, that was a misstatement. He meant "raised in the church [singular 'body'] of Christ." Speaking of "churches of Christ," that should be understood as "congregations" of the church or body of Christ. Be careful, preachers!"

Luke, Paul and John i suppose should be corrected when they used the word "churches" so many times. Any one who would find the need to argue about the use of the word "churches" is not going to find very many folks who would like to have any kind of conversation with. Maybe that's why very few visit this site. Peace
change agent
Change agent wrote: "Maybe that's why very few visit this site." No one but the moderator knows exactly how may people visit this site--how many daily "hits" this site receives. Neither change agent nor anyone else should judge this site based on how many people actually post here. It is quite possible that this site receives many hits, yet the majority of visitors may choose not to post anything, because they are only curious or wish to read the messages without participating in the discussions. It is also quite possible that a fair number of messages submitted are rejected by the moderator, because those messages are completely unfit for posting here; that is, they contain spam, vulgarity, profanity, or pornography. Therefore, do not make the mistake of assuming that everyone who visits this site posts messages.
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Donnie
Donnie

August 10th, 2010, 9:31 pm #29

Question: If we are saved and have a relationship with God then we are connected with God through His Spirit. Think, if you can blaspheme God and Christ and be forgiven but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven, then the Spirit of God has to be a Person

That's not exactly what Jesus said.

Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said,
......He hath Beelzebub, and
......by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.


They say that the spirit IN Jesus was the Devil.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you,
......All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,
......and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost
......hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Now look closely: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was saying that the Spirit in Jesus was an UNCLEAN spirit.

Mark 3:30 Because they said, HE hath an UNclean spirit.

Instead, the Spirit that Jesus had was A HOLY Spirit perfectly clean.

Now, look at the supporting evidence.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


The Spirit OF Christ is the Advocate or Comforter.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
......And if any man sin,
......we have an advocate (Comforter) with the Father,
......Jesus Christ the righteous:

So, what about saying that THE Spirit which was IN Jesus Christ as a clean or HOLY Spirit was NOT His at all? Can people believe that the spirit that Jesus HATH was a HE and another person standing outside of Jesus? That leaves Jesus without His own Spirit or Mind as Paul draws the parallel in 1 Corinthians 2.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]QUESTION:

IF the Holy Spirit is the THIRD PERSON of the Catholic-invented, Protestant-propagated Trinity Doctrine, is that the same "THIRD PERSON" as "the Spirit OF the living God" in II Cor. 3:3?

Clue: The preposition "OF" in a phrase by definition means "proceeding from ... belonging to ... denoting possession or ownership ... part of a whole ... an attribute ... a component. Simply, e.g., note the following expressions: "the mouth OF the Lord"; "tree OF the garden"; "presence OF the Lord." Is the mouth the Lord? Is the tree the garden? Is presence the Lord?

Job 33:4 -- "The Spirit OF God hath made me, and the breath OF the Almighty hath given me life."

If the holy Spirit OF God is a being and if the living God is a separate [or another] being, how do you explain that?
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Donnie
Donnie

August 10th, 2010, 10:13 pm #30

Question: If we are saved and have a relationship with God then we are connected with God through His Spirit. Think, if you can blaspheme God and Christ and be forgiven but you cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven, then the Spirit of God has to be a Person

That's not exactly what Jesus said.

Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said,
......He hath Beelzebub, and
......by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.


They say that the spirit IN Jesus was the Devil.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you,
......All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men,
......and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost
......hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:


Now look closely: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was saying that the Spirit in Jesus was an UNCLEAN spirit.

Mark 3:30 Because they said, HE hath an UNclean spirit.

Instead, the Spirit that Jesus had was A HOLY Spirit perfectly clean.

Now, look at the supporting evidence.

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


The Spirit OF Christ is the Advocate or Comforter.

1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.
......And if any man sin,
......we have an advocate (Comforter) with the Father,
......Jesus Christ the righteous:

So, what about saying that THE Spirit which was IN Jesus Christ as a clean or HOLY Spirit was NOT His at all? Can people believe that the spirit that Jesus HATH was a HE and another person standing outside of Jesus? That leaves Jesus without His own Spirit or Mind as Paul draws the parallel in 1 Corinthians 2.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Passage from John 4:

[19] The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
[20] Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
[21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
[22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


The Lord God is holy (Psa. 99:5,9; Joshua 24:19; I Sam. 6:20; Rev. 4:8).

In the above text, Jesus was referring to the Father as God who is a Spirit, that the Father is to be worshipped in spirit and in truth. The FATHER is wholly a SPIRIT [no flesh] and is HOLY.

Should there be another Holy Spirit being (a third person) than our <b>holy heavenly Father, God who is a Spirit (John 4:24)?</b>
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