Anonymous
Anonymous

June 5th, 2004, 3:18 am #71

Jay Guin Partial reviews.

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promi ... pirit.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.What.is.A ... skins.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Instrumen ... ament.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.New.Wines ... sions.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Church.of ... .Born.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.1.Corinthians.10.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Fork.in.The.Road.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Dancing.in.Worship.html
http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Inst ... .Guin.html





Tainted by the Promise Keeper's cult, the Purpose Driven Cult, the Spiritist cult of Max Lucado, the Jubilee Cult of Rubel Shelly and any scam with "promises," the Hohenwald church has done a great leap forward from almost 350 as an average to probably less than 200 now with daily defections.

Major symptom is an ACU product which promotes FEMINIST HERMENEUTICS.

The ACU Agenda: Train PROPHETIC ROLES, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS the method of subverting the 'hierarchial" views of JESUS and Paul. the end-time subversion is the beginninng-time version which is "FEMINIST hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics" its goal achieved "by small, often unnoticed acts of SUBVERSION. Numerous such incremental changes, like EROSION, will eventually bring down the FORTRESS " ( WOMEN IN THE CHURCH: Reclaiming the Ideal p. 32).

The symptoms from the Masculine Journey is the Feminists and effeminate turn away from the WORD including BAPTISM and the turn to singing silly, erotic praise songs, which in history was for little JEHOVAH to sing up praises to Sophia and mother ZOE to elevate himself up to the seventh, yet inferior, heaven.

It is following the same Madison plan where you get into a charismatic spasm and can't quit shooting yourself in the foot. The people were not fooled but have lived in a decade of gut-grinding sowing of discord.

At the root is Biblical illiteracy.

K. Sublett
Eat, drink and make merry because the baby boomers have discovered that they could PROCURE a Phd from manufacturing plants run by other Phds who procured their Phd "without a certificate of need" then made a career of infesting peacable churches with agents performing as "Prophets [profits], Chanellers and Facilitators to DIVERT people from truth.

Using Paul's imagery, "fools love to be fooled." Jerusalem had been fooled: the "Jews" whose title Jesus used with contempt were "children of Abraham" but Jesus denied that they were Israelites. They were Kenites or Cainites or Canaanites. As a result, Jesus spoke to them in parables so that they could hear the SIMPLE TRUTH but could not understand it. Peter said that Paul spoke that way. People loose their power to comprehend simple truth. "Mary had a little lamb" had nothing to do with her character. It is apparent that the Cainites (from a musical note) and Cain's (of that Evil one) clan still take over "synagogues of Christ" intending to turn them into "theaters for holy entertainment." When you do that people flee and God in Christ makes it impossible for you to ever again grasp the truth. Whether bad character or genetics Hebrews 6 proves my point. God proved it at the Flood, the Red Sea, the "flood motif" in Jer. 4, in baptism (those who question it) and in what people build as institutions to replace and silence the human spirit.

Jesus repudiated the mass gatherings, musical performers and speaking performers by several simple statements. Too bad that people cannot hear it even in the simple statements of Jesus. Why can't you hear "where two or three are gathered in MY name I will be in their midst. Because they are baptized believers they are DISCIPLES so they can 'come learn of me'." That frees them from the legalistic bondage of having to be at a certain "house" made with human hands or "facilitated" or mediated by the musical performers [inconsistent with REST]. Jesus says "I have paid the temple tax forever because I AM the Great Fisherman." Here it is: ask why do the MAJORITY have not the slightest ability to hear the Spirit in the words?
  • <font color=blue>Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you REST. Matthew 11:28

    Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to load up (prop. as a vessel or animal), i.e. (fig.) to overburden with CEREMONY or spiritual ANXIETY: - lade, be heavy laden.

    And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers [dispensers of the law in bits] for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Lu.11:46 </font>
Rest does not mean that God got sweaty, lost His energy and sat under a shade tree. Rest which was made a law by God, meant that you CEASE your weekly activity (singing, clappig, speaking, performing on the stage or plowing) because at times the FIRST DAY and SEVENTH DAYS were grasped out of the hands of the TRAFFICK clans. They were not to "worship"--which meant hard bondage-- but to hold a HOLY CONVOCATION. That meant to REHEARSE or READ the Word. The Israelites could GRASP that simple fact and NEVER "sang or played music or mounted the stage and preached" when the synagoguge (church in the wilderness) met ONLY for instructions.

Because the professional TRAFFICKERS took away God's REST under the Law, He sent His ARM (not a second God). Jesus CREATED His ekklesia or synagogue or school of the Bible in order to give His people REST from the Pharisees, Hypocrites and Scribes. If you can think of an ACT which claims to influence God or work magic on the "tithers and offerers" then it is professional paganism. The RULER is Apollo (of seeker center fame), Abaddon or Apollyon. He has dug up the locusts or muses or musical performers.

The word REST had a major MEANING. Why is it that in the Greek resources there are so many PROOF TEXT which deal with STOPPING the singers or musicians or Polemos speakers? And when you point them out you are a sower of discord?

Jesus sent the message that we should "rest from performing musicians and speakers" because they were known as sorcerers and parasites. Why would He approve what He knew was the most powerful WEAPON of creating spiritual anxiety: take credit for the 26% of Americans suffering from depression "created by religious ritual." Rest is the Greek:
  • <font color=blue>Anapauo an-up-ow'-o; from 303 and 3973; (reflex.) to repose (lit. or fig. [be exempt], remain); by impl. to refresh: - take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest

    Ana means "each and every one." Apart from even in a group. </font>
Rest is: Pauo and means to stop a person from doing: "rhapsôidous epause agônizesthai

It means that to be a DISCIPLE OF CHRIST you must STOP or SILENCE the "musical performers." The word PAUO also means to silence the PUBLIC SPEAKERS. The word POLEMOS speaks of Armageddon and the 'War of words" rather than the "war of the worlds." The first term is

<font color=red size ="4">Rhapsôidos</font> epause agônizesthai
  • <font color=blue>This includes "properly one who stitches or STRINGS songs together ..but rhapsôidoi commonly meant a CLASS of persons who got their living by reciting the poems of Homer </font>
David's "musical team clans" were known as "aboriginals." Among the Greeks, the musical, preaching and charismatic performers were identified with a word meaning SELF GENERATED and OUT OF THE EARTH. Scripture says that they are spirits from ancient times. I don't know.

Remember that Jesus STOPPED the performing "minstrels" and cast them out as one ejects dung. He refused to do His HEALING WORK when people reject His Word and "stitch together a series of songs" to work worship magic. This may explain the end-to-end singing of erotic praise songs to destroy the DISCIPLING atmosphere.

This word is connected to the word hupokritês. The next word is the PAUO which Jesus demanded in order for Him to teach and give REST.

Rhapsôidous <font color=red size ="4">epause</font> agônizesthai

It means to make to cease: "Stop one from singing or speaking. Leave off external singing or playing, choral songs; which create fear which speaks of Phoebus or Apollo and his "muses." (See Revelation 18 and hope to understand that Jesus the Spirit through John condemns them back into the netherworld or UNDERGROUND from which they came). Many of these terms apply to the Lesbian or Lesbos singers. Homer was honored by people RECITING (Paul said SPEAK) his hymns or poems. The Labor-intensive Lesbians set Homer to melody and instruments" or banners! They were the FIRST to add instruments into paganism. Therefore, they wereTRAMPLING on Homer just as performers TRAMPLE on Jesus:
  • <font color=blue>Homêro-patês: one who tramples on Homer, masculine: perverter of Homer. A similar definition is: " hudr-aulês, one who plays the hudraulis." This includes: one who bears the sacred boughs. The hudraulis was an early pipe organ. The pipe organ added by the Lesbian singers would SILENCE Homer because people would be attracted to the "performances" which includes more than we can bear just now.</font>
Most of the singers with instruments were women or strange men. Therefore, to rhapsoidos is like the word:
  • <font color=red>Kuon or dog: as a word of reproach, to denote shamelessness or audacity in women, rashness, recklessness in men, </font>
Remember that Paul said that the converted Jews worshipped in the NEW PLACE of the Spirit. Why? Why because outside would be the dogs and sorcerers (performers of any kind affecting a Pharisee spiritual superiority)

The Word Tragedys applies the term to the ministers of the gods; the eagle is Dios ptênos (feathers in the PSALLO arrow) kuôn Aesch.; the griffins Zênos akrageis kunes id=Aesch.; the Bacchantes Lussês k. Eur., etc.

Kuon incluses: "IV. a SEA-DOG, mentioned as a FISH. This was a semion or MARK."

Rhapsôidos epause <font color=red size ="4">agônizesthai </font>

Agônizesthai means to contend for the prize on the stage, both of the poet, Hdt., etc., and of the actor, public speaking, struggle, to exert oneself.

Now, that is a bunch, but to those whose eyes God has not closed, the MEAT of the Gospel for the Christians or baptized disciple, is that God lives in our mind or spirit to the extent we GIVE HEED to His Words (Paul's only worship word). If that cannot be understood the TOTALITY of the Greek background should be skipped--I have libraries full and NOT ONE EXCEPTION to what I have reported to you about MUSIC as the end-time identifier of the different MARKS people have.

Let me know if you have any input: this is a safe house.

ksublett@piney.com

Ken
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

June 15th, 2004, 2:06 am #72

Jay Guin Partial reviews.

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Reviews.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Promi ... pirit.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.What.is.A ... skins.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Instrumen ... ament.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.New.Wines ... sions.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Church.of ... .Born.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.1.Corinthians.10.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.The.Fork.in.The.Road.html
http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Dancing.in.Worship.html
http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Inst ... .Guin.html





Tainted by the Promise Keeper's cult, the Purpose Driven Cult, the Spiritist cult of Max Lucado, the Jubilee Cult of Rubel Shelly and any scam with "promises," the Hohenwald church has done a great leap forward from almost 350 as an average to probably less than 200 now with daily defections.

Major symptom is an ACU product which promotes FEMINIST HERMENEUTICS.

The ACU Agenda: Train PROPHETIC ROLES, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS the method of subverting the 'hierarchial" views of JESUS and Paul. the end-time subversion is the beginninng-time version which is "FEMINIST hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics" its goal achieved "by small, often unnoticed acts of SUBVERSION. Numerous such incremental changes, like EROSION, will eventually bring down the FORTRESS " ( WOMEN IN THE CHURCH: Reclaiming the Ideal p. 32).

The symptoms from the Masculine Journey is the Feminists and effeminate turn away from the WORD including BAPTISM and the turn to singing silly, erotic praise songs, which in history was for little JEHOVAH to sing up praises to Sophia and mother ZOE to elevate himself up to the seventh, yet inferior, heaven.

It is following the same Madison plan where you get into a charismatic spasm and can't quit shooting yourself in the foot. The people were not fooled but have lived in a decade of gut-grinding sowing of discord.

At the root is Biblical illiteracy.

K. Sublett
Email Feedback question:

"What is your take on this passage. Was this ministry with music unauthorized. Did David just do things without God's approval in this area of music?

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there. 32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them." <HR SIZE="6" NOSHADE>

First, note that specific families of the tribe of Levi were named: if you were not a Levite and tried to perform any of these services you would get into trouble. As a singer or musician who SERVED the priests and not God, you would never be allowed past the "parking lot." If you ventured into the symbol of "church" even to clean out the garbage you would be run through with a sword (instrument)

Second, when David performed his PLAGUE STOPPING animal sacrifice at the Jebusite High Place (Zion or Jerusalem) he DID NOT included instrumentalists.
  • <font color=blue>And these are they whom David set over the service of song in the house of the Lord, after that the ark had rest. 1 Chr 6:31 </font>
This was not a TEMPLE but an alternate altar which God permitted David because he was so panic stricken that he could never return to gibeon to enquire of God.

The Levitical "musicians" made a great, unison, crashing sound as Warrior creators of panic. We are told that the priests tuned all of the horns to the same note and no one was allowed to put holes in them to make playing a tune possible. They clanged on cymbals or shields or swords: that is why a musical INSTRUMENT and a WEAPON use the same Hebrew (and Greek) word. For instance a LIFELESS musical instrument also speaks of WEAPONS. Our weapons are SPIRITUAL of the WORD and not CARNAL WEAPONS. In the Greek resources the word is HOPLON where loud panic "music" was a way to overcome the ENEMY by creating cowardice--just like in "church" which has no remote relationship to the ekklesia or synagogue or Scholl of the Bible taught by God in Christ.

This was a MAKES WORK PROJECT for the surplus warrior Levites. Just before the time of Christ these "GIs" were put to work building buildings and walls and not playing "music." The ARK HAD REST means that the wars were over.
  • <font color=blue>And they ministered BEFORE the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the Lord in Jerusalem: and then they waited on their office according to their order. 1 Chron 6:32 </font>
This was not GOD'S tabernacle but David's New Tent.

REGULATIONS of the NIV are "the order" in the KJV. Because of the huge number of warrior Levites they were organized in a certain order of FAMILIES much like job sharing. The Levites got their authority because they would kill their brethren during the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai where their charismatic worship service made them into a LAUGHING STOCK while the perfermers worshipped themselves.
  • <font color=blue>And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) Exod 32:25
    • Shimcah (h8103) shim-tsaw'; fem. of 8102; scornful whispering (of hostile spectators): - shame.
    Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lords side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. Ex.32:26 </font>
The MUSICAL LEVITES under Asaph would continue to be the slave drivers and controllers. They received their authority as WARRIORS and not worship leaders. The Temple was looted within five years of Solomon's death, civil war broke out and the king promised that the LEVITES would plague them even worse than Solomon.

Gathered is the source of the musical guild under Asaph:
  • <font color=blue>Acaph (h622) aw-saf'; a prim. root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, i. e. remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.): - assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, * surely, take (away, into, up), * utterly, withdraw. </font>
The word for pollute includes play the flute and prostitute and to consume other people's inheritance:
  • <font color=blue>Chalal (h2490)khaw-lal'; ... to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute) : - begin.... eat (as common things), * first, gather the grape thereof, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound. </font>
Asap was NOT a spiritual "worship leader! During the building of the temple the EXCELLERS were slave drivers!
  • <font color=blue> Acaph (h623) aw-sawf'; from 622; collector; Asaph, the name of three Isr., and of the family of the first: - Asaph. </font>
Amazingly the GUILDS of musicians were named after Canaanite guilds. The word "aboriginal" meant that it was believed that they were SELF-GENERATED from under the earth. They were symbolized by SCORPIONS. The Lesbian singers are claimed to be the first who took poetry intended to be RECITED and added tunefulness and instrumental music.

The word "ministered" means a MENIAL or WORSHIP. You are not gonna find true worshipers flinging their hands if they think they are in the presence of God: they SERVE or do bondage with fear and trembling. However, the word normalll indicates servants or slaves. Of the Queen of Sheba:
  • <font color=blue>And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the Lord; there was no more spirit in her. 1K.10:5 </font>
This was at the Jebusite High Place after David was too fearful to return to Gibeon which was the lawful place of the Tabernacle.

The word SERVICE does not mean WORSHIP but from HAND means
  • <font color=blue>Yad (h3027) yawd; a prim. word; a hand (the open one [indicating power, means, direction, etc.], in distinction from 3709, the closed one); used (as noun. adv., etc.) in a great variety of applications, both lit. and fig., both proximate and remote [as follow]: - (/ be) able, * about, / armholes, at, axletree, charge, custody, debt, dominion, throwing, thumb, work, </font>
The SERVICE of the singers and later musicians is defined by a word meaning HARD BONDAGE much like the word Abadown.

The SONG is:
  • <font color=blue> Shiyr (h7892) sheer; or fem. shyrah shee-raw'; from 7891; a song; abstr. singing: - musical (-ick), * sing (-er, -ing), song </font>
This word is used of Laban who had cheated Jacob with a DRUNKEN celebration with wine and music so he was so drunk that he didn't know which girl he was sleeping with.
  • <font color=blue> Wherefore didst thou flee away secretly, and steal away from me; and didst not tell me, that I might have sent thee away with mirth, and with songs, with tabret, and with harp? Ge.31:27 </font>
You will notice the universal meaning in the old testament: even though a word is sometimes TRANSLATED as music, is that an instrument is never included unless it is named. The same is true of our word SONG.

When Moses sang a song you will notice the fact that singing never involved our kind of charismatic singing;
  • <font color=blue>THEN sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. Ex.15:1 </font>
Remember that Paul said in a HIDDEN PARABLE that we are to SPEAK the inspired text.

When david spake or recited HE WAS singing in both the Hebrew and Greek world. If you READ a Psalm in the Synagogue it was calleld singing or cantillation. The object was not to stir up the senses but to teach:
  • <font color=blue> Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. De.31:19 </font>
They, much better than we understood that SPEAK to one another means SPEAK as in the word SPEAK. The idea was to put it into their mouth just the way we memorized the Gettysburg Address. Next day teacher wanted you, as ANOTHER, to speak the message back to her to make sure you knew it. She had no interest in you cutting it up and insulting Abraham and entertaining her.

Again, when David got himself naked and vile the SING must always define an intrument if instrument (possible by the definition of the word because it was metrical) was included it was ALWAYS NAMED. David PLAYED just as the Israaelites PLAYED in musical idolatry and "making self vile." To humble self and making oneself vile including sodomy was to PROOF to God that the worshiper was so inferior that they could not be punished.
  • <font color=blue> And David and all Israel played before God [Had God in a box] with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets. 1Chr.13:8 </font>
If I ask a musician to SING a song, it is metrical and can be accompanied by an instrument.

A psaltery is from an "empty wineskin" used as an echo chamber or the familiar spirit of the Witch of Endor. It is derived from a word which means:
  • <font color=blue>Nabal (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither.. </font>
David TOLD Michal that he made himself vile (Halal or Chalal) and would be held in honor by the slave girls.

When singing and instruments are named it is not a worship word even as it was not before David's Tent:
  • <font color=blue>And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Is.23:15 </font>
Then
  • <font color=red>
    • Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Is.23:16
    </font>
The word SING which includes instruments is from the Hebrew
  • <font color=blue>Shiyr (h7891) sheer; or (the orig. form) 7788 (1 Sam. 18:6), shoor; a prim. root [rather ident. with 7788 through the idea of strolling minstrelsy]; to sing: - behold [by mistake for 7788], sing (-er, - ing man, -ing woman).

    Shuwr (h7788) shoor; a prim. root; prop. to turn, i. e. travel about (as a harlot or a merchant): - go, sing. See also 7891. [Remember that Lucifer or Zoe was both a singing and harp playing prostitute and a trafficker]

    The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas. Eze.27:25

    Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Am.5:23

    That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; Am.6:5

    Shuwr (h7790) shoor; from 7889; a foe (as lying in wait): - enemy. </font>
Who can doubt that God made sure that we knew that "making music" in His presence is the work of spiritual adulterers. By claiming authority from the Levites they are cursed with the persona of warriors and spiritual killers.

Sorry, the Bible always associates "music" as it did in the temple as a way to gloat over slaughtering tens of thousands of types of God in Jesus Christ. The history of the MOST VILE pagan temples sends us the message that neither singers, musicians or rheotoricians EVER entered into the Holy Place which symbolizes the church of Christ. When the priest looks into the Most Holy Place at the incense altar there was a HALF HOUR OF SILENCE: the Lord is in His Holy temple (me) and you WILL be silent or I will be gone.

Modern charismatic singing is much more destructive and emotionally polluting than a pipe organ!

Ken
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Joined: July 9th, 2004, 2:06 am

July 9th, 2004, 2:45 am #73

It is amusing to me that some people respond to what you say and praise you for the wonderful words that you share. There must be some type of secret code to unscramble what you say becasue it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever as is.

The sad truth of the matter is that the fundamentalists in the churches of Christ are searching for someone to articulate in an intelligent way the view of the traditional churches of Christ since nobody seems to know how to do it. For years, many people within the churches of Christ have been afraid to question their beliefs and, therefore, there has not been a need to DEFEND them. Now that there is a need to defend them, there is nobody to do it. If they are looking to Mr. Sublett to do it, then they will lose mightily because none of us have any idea what you are saying and I venture to say that those who pay tribute to you have no idea what you are saying either. They simply see the words "baptism" and "instrumental music" mingled with a few "LUCIFERS" and "SATANS" and assume that you are "right on brother."

When you count up the amount of activity on this web site, the majority of responses come from those of us who are tired of the debates on baptism and instumental music because they are a debate that has been had and was defeated. Nobody is teaching that you do not need to be baptized, they simply put baptism in its proper place and not on the same level as the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Please understand this and quit babbling.
It saddens me to see a brother or sister in Christ who has let a "wolf" make them question their beliefs. The Bible has not changed and there is no need for anyone to change for the sake of entertainment, just to increase church numbers. Those wolves are only tickling your ears.
I pray the best for you and hope that your eyes will soon be opened. God Bless Ken Sublett for having the courage to stand up for what is right.

In Christ,
Lillian
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Joined: July 9th, 2004, 2:06 am

July 9th, 2004, 3:00 am #74

This comment is directed to all of you who keep responding to Kenneth Sublett in an effort to keep this pointless dialogue going (NOT to Mr. Sublett himself).

Hopefully by now you have all figured out that Kenneth Sublett has nothing else better to do than fuel the fire of controversy by attacking individuals and congregations that do not see eye-to-eye with his very "unique" theology. Mr. Sublett has an agenda, an "axe to grind," if you will. You can ask him all the questions you want (where he worships, how he worships, etc.), and he is not going to answer you. It's fascinating to me that several of the responses to Mr. Sublett are in regard to how hard it is to understand what he is saying. Just read 1 and 2 Timothy. Paul warned Timothy about people like Kenneth Sublett, who have nothing better to do than generate strife and engage people in mindless chatter and trivial arguments which do not edify, but rather destroy.

About a year ago, I had the unhappy experience of engaging these people in dialogue over the King James Version of the Bible and found myself having more headaches than it was worth! These "Concerned Members" people are not interested in spreading the Gospel or saving lost souls, or even glorifying God for that matter. They are only interested in their agenda, which I might add, is never really made clear. The more you engage these people in discussion and the more you dignify their pointless drivel with a response, the more you condone their hateful, narrow-minded views. My advice is to just leave them alone to their own devices. Trust me, some day they will realize the harm they have done to the Lord's body, but by then it will be too late.
I am not one of "those people" you referred to, but I have read with interest the subjects on this site. You do not have a very Christian attitute, and trust that you do not openly proclaim to be one. The Churches of Christ are in trouble and I am concerned that we are going the "way of the world." We are to keep ourself separated from the world, in the world but not of the world. You are either for Christ or against him. You cannot be both, as some are trying to do. If we don't stand up for the truth then we are no better than those who are teaching error.
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Joined: June 10th, 2004, 4:42 am

July 11th, 2004, 7:16 pm #75

Email Feedback question:

"What is your take on this passage. Was this ministry with music unauthorized. Did David just do things without God's approval in this area of music?

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there. 32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them." <HR SIZE="6" NOSHADE>

First, note that specific families of the tribe of Levi were named: if you were not a Levite and tried to perform any of these services you would get into trouble. As a singer or musician who SERVED the priests and not God, you would never be allowed past the "parking lot." If you ventured into the symbol of "church" even to clean out the garbage you would be run through with a sword (instrument)

Second, when David performed his PLAGUE STOPPING animal sacrifice at the Jebusite High Place (Zion or Jerusalem) he DID NOT included instrumentalists.
  • <font color=blue>And these are they whom David set over the service of song in the house of the Lord, after that the ark had rest. 1 Chr 6:31 </font>
This was not a TEMPLE but an alternate altar which God permitted David because he was so panic stricken that he could never return to gibeon to enquire of God.

The Levitical "musicians" made a great, unison, crashing sound as Warrior creators of panic. We are told that the priests tuned all of the horns to the same note and no one was allowed to put holes in them to make playing a tune possible. They clanged on cymbals or shields or swords: that is why a musical INSTRUMENT and a WEAPON use the same Hebrew (and Greek) word. For instance a LIFELESS musical instrument also speaks of WEAPONS. Our weapons are SPIRITUAL of the WORD and not CARNAL WEAPONS. In the Greek resources the word is HOPLON where loud panic "music" was a way to overcome the ENEMY by creating cowardice--just like in "church" which has no remote relationship to the ekklesia or synagogue or Scholl of the Bible taught by God in Christ.

This was a MAKES WORK PROJECT for the surplus warrior Levites. Just before the time of Christ these "GIs" were put to work building buildings and walls and not playing "music." The ARK HAD REST means that the wars were over.
  • <font color=blue>And they ministered BEFORE the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the Lord in Jerusalem: and then they waited on their office according to their order. 1 Chron 6:32 </font>
This was not GOD'S tabernacle but David's New Tent.

REGULATIONS of the NIV are "the order" in the KJV. Because of the huge number of warrior Levites they were organized in a certain order of FAMILIES much like job sharing. The Levites got their authority because they would kill their brethren during the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai where their charismatic worship service made them into a LAUGHING STOCK while the perfermers worshipped themselves.
  • <font color=blue>And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) Exod 32:25
    • Shimcah (h8103) shim-tsaw'; fem. of 8102; scornful whispering (of hostile spectators): - shame.
    Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lords side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. Ex.32:26 </font>
The MUSICAL LEVITES under Asaph would continue to be the slave drivers and controllers. They received their authority as WARRIORS and not worship leaders. The Temple was looted within five years of Solomon's death, civil war broke out and the king promised that the LEVITES would plague them even worse than Solomon.

Gathered is the source of the musical guild under Asaph:
  • <font color=blue>Acaph (h622) aw-saf'; a prim. root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, i. e. remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.): - assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, * surely, take (away, into, up), * utterly, withdraw. </font>
The word for pollute includes play the flute and prostitute and to consume other people's inheritance:
  • <font color=blue>Chalal (h2490)khaw-lal'; ... to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute) : - begin.... eat (as common things), * first, gather the grape thereof, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound. </font>
Asap was NOT a spiritual "worship leader! During the building of the temple the EXCELLERS were slave drivers!
  • <font color=blue> Acaph (h623) aw-sawf'; from 622; collector; Asaph, the name of three Isr., and of the family of the first: - Asaph. </font>
Amazingly the GUILDS of musicians were named after Canaanite guilds. The word "aboriginal" meant that it was believed that they were SELF-GENERATED from under the earth. They were symbolized by SCORPIONS. The Lesbian singers are claimed to be the first who took poetry intended to be RECITED and added tunefulness and instrumental music.

The word "ministered" means a MENIAL or WORSHIP. You are not gonna find true worshipers flinging their hands if they think they are in the presence of God: they SERVE or do bondage with fear and trembling. However, the word normalll indicates servants or slaves. Of the Queen of Sheba:
  • <font color=blue>And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the Lord; there was no more spirit in her. 1K.10:5 </font>
This was at the Jebusite High Place after David was too fearful to return to Gibeon which was the lawful place of the Tabernacle.

The word SERVICE does not mean WORSHIP but from HAND means
  • <font color=blue>Yad (h3027) yawd; a prim. word; a hand (the open one [indicating power, means, direction, etc.], in distinction from 3709, the closed one); used (as noun. adv., etc.) in a great variety of applications, both lit. and fig., both proximate and remote [as follow]: - (/ be) able, * about, / armholes, at, axletree, charge, custody, debt, dominion, throwing, thumb, work, </font>
The SERVICE of the singers and later musicians is defined by a word meaning HARD BONDAGE much like the word Abadown.

The SONG is:
  • <font color=blue> Shiyr (h7892) sheer; or fem. shyrah shee-raw'; from 7891; a song; abstr. singing: - musical (-ick), * sing (-er, -ing), song </font>
This word is used of Laban who had cheated Jacob with a DRUNKEN celebration with wine and music so he was so drunk that he didn't know which girl he was sleeping with.
  • <font color=blue> Wherefore didst thou flee away secretly, and steal away from me; and didst not tell me, that I might have sent thee away with mirth, and with songs, with tabret, and with harp? Ge.31:27 </font>
You will notice the universal meaning in the old testament: even though a word is sometimes TRANSLATED as music, is that an instrument is never included unless it is named. The same is true of our word SONG.

When Moses sang a song you will notice the fact that singing never involved our kind of charismatic singing;
  • <font color=blue>THEN sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. Ex.15:1 </font>
Remember that Paul said in a HIDDEN PARABLE that we are to SPEAK the inspired text.

When david spake or recited HE WAS singing in both the Hebrew and Greek world. If you READ a Psalm in the Synagogue it was calleld singing or cantillation. The object was not to stir up the senses but to teach:
  • <font color=blue> Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. De.31:19 </font>
They, much better than we understood that SPEAK to one another means SPEAK as in the word SPEAK. The idea was to put it into their mouth just the way we memorized the Gettysburg Address. Next day teacher wanted you, as ANOTHER, to speak the message back to her to make sure you knew it. She had no interest in you cutting it up and insulting Abraham and entertaining her.

Again, when David got himself naked and vile the SING must always define an intrument if instrument (possible by the definition of the word because it was metrical) was included it was ALWAYS NAMED. David PLAYED just as the Israaelites PLAYED in musical idolatry and "making self vile." To humble self and making oneself vile including sodomy was to PROOF to God that the worshiper was so inferior that they could not be punished.
  • <font color=blue> And David and all Israel played before God [Had God in a box] with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets. 1Chr.13:8 </font>
If I ask a musician to SING a song, it is metrical and can be accompanied by an instrument.

A psaltery is from an "empty wineskin" used as an echo chamber or the familiar spirit of the Witch of Endor. It is derived from a word which means:
  • <font color=blue>Nabal (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither.. </font>
David TOLD Michal that he made himself vile (Halal or Chalal) and would be held in honor by the slave girls.

When singing and instruments are named it is not a worship word even as it was not before David's Tent:
  • <font color=blue>And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Is.23:15 </font>
Then
  • <font color=red>
    • Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Is.23:16
    </font>
The word SING which includes instruments is from the Hebrew
  • <font color=blue>Shiyr (h7891) sheer; or (the orig. form) 7788 (1 Sam. 18:6), shoor; a prim. root [rather ident. with 7788 through the idea of strolling minstrelsy]; to sing: - behold [by mistake for 7788], sing (-er, - ing man, -ing woman).

    Shuwr (h7788) shoor; a prim. root; prop. to turn, i. e. travel about (as a harlot or a merchant): - go, sing. See also 7891. [Remember that Lucifer or Zoe was both a singing and harp playing prostitute and a trafficker]

    The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas. Eze.27:25

    Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Am.5:23

    That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; Am.6:5

    Shuwr (h7790) shoor; from 7889; a foe (as lying in wait): - enemy. </font>
Who can doubt that God made sure that we knew that "making music" in His presence is the work of spiritual adulterers. By claiming authority from the Levites they are cursed with the persona of warriors and spiritual killers.

Sorry, the Bible always associates "music" as it did in the temple as a way to gloat over slaughtering tens of thousands of types of God in Jesus Christ. The history of the MOST VILE pagan temples sends us the message that neither singers, musicians or rheotoricians EVER entered into the Holy Place which symbolizes the church of Christ. When the priest looks into the Most Holy Place at the incense altar there was a HALF HOUR OF SILENCE: the Lord is in His Holy temple (me) and you WILL be silent or I will be gone.

Modern charismatic singing is much more destructive and emotionally polluting than a pipe organ!

Ken
Dear Ken, I wrote to you one time before explaining that
on most issues, I agree with you. The same is still
true. I enjoy reading what you have to say with one exception: your posts are so long! You obviously have
studied God's word quite a bit and there are many of us
on here who benifit from your posts, but each one is an
epistle! I know if I see your name listed as the latest
reply, plan to spend about two hours reading it! (Of
course I exaggerate - just being humorous!) Seriously,
I think you have a lot of good things to say, and I know
sometimes that takes a lot of time (or space). However,
getting to the point with out all the exegesis and
lengthy notations would make your posts more readable
(and to some younger christians, understandable). I look
forward, as always, to reading your posts in the future,
hopefully in "reader's digest" form! In Christian love,
Kurt Bowers.
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Embarrased of this Site
Embarrased of this Site

July 12th, 2004, 1:41 am #76

Email Feedback question:

"What is your take on this passage. Was this ministry with music unauthorized. Did David just do things without God's approval in this area of music?

31 These are the men David put in charge of the music in the house of the LORD after the ark came to rest there. 32 They ministered with music before the tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting, until Solomon built the temple of the LORD in Jerusalem. They performed their duties according to the regulations laid down for them." <HR SIZE="6" NOSHADE>

First, note that specific families of the tribe of Levi were named: if you were not a Levite and tried to perform any of these services you would get into trouble. As a singer or musician who SERVED the priests and not God, you would never be allowed past the "parking lot." If you ventured into the symbol of "church" even to clean out the garbage you would be run through with a sword (instrument)

Second, when David performed his PLAGUE STOPPING animal sacrifice at the Jebusite High Place (Zion or Jerusalem) he DID NOT included instrumentalists.
  • <font color=blue>And these are they whom David set over the service of song in the house of the Lord, after that the ark had rest. 1 Chr 6:31 </font>
This was not a TEMPLE but an alternate altar which God permitted David because he was so panic stricken that he could never return to gibeon to enquire of God.

The Levitical "musicians" made a great, unison, crashing sound as Warrior creators of panic. We are told that the priests tuned all of the horns to the same note and no one was allowed to put holes in them to make playing a tune possible. They clanged on cymbals or shields or swords: that is why a musical INSTRUMENT and a WEAPON use the same Hebrew (and Greek) word. For instance a LIFELESS musical instrument also speaks of WEAPONS. Our weapons are SPIRITUAL of the WORD and not CARNAL WEAPONS. In the Greek resources the word is HOPLON where loud panic "music" was a way to overcome the ENEMY by creating cowardice--just like in "church" which has no remote relationship to the ekklesia or synagogue or Scholl of the Bible taught by God in Christ.

This was a MAKES WORK PROJECT for the surplus warrior Levites. Just before the time of Christ these "GIs" were put to work building buildings and walls and not playing "music." The ARK HAD REST means that the wars were over.
  • <font color=blue>And they ministered BEFORE the dwelling place of the tabernacle of the congregation with singing, until Solomon had built the house of the Lord in Jerusalem: and then they waited on their office according to their order. 1 Chron 6:32 </font>
This was not GOD'S tabernacle but David's New Tent.

REGULATIONS of the NIV are "the order" in the KJV. Because of the huge number of warrior Levites they were organized in a certain order of FAMILIES much like job sharing. The Levites got their authority because they would kill their brethren during the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai where their charismatic worship service made them into a LAUGHING STOCK while the perfermers worshipped themselves.
  • <font color=blue>And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:) Exod 32:25
    • Shimcah (h8103) shim-tsaw'; fem. of 8102; scornful whispering (of hostile spectators): - shame.
    Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the Lords side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. Ex.32:26 </font>
The MUSICAL LEVITES under Asaph would continue to be the slave drivers and controllers. They received their authority as WARRIORS and not worship leaders. The Temple was looted within five years of Solomon's death, civil war broke out and the king promised that the LEVITES would plague them even worse than Solomon.

Gathered is the source of the musical guild under Asaph:
  • <font color=blue>Acaph (h622) aw-saf'; a prim. root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, i. e. remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.): - assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, * surely, take (away, into, up), * utterly, withdraw. </font>
The word for pollute includes play the flute and prostitute and to consume other people's inheritance:
  • <font color=blue>Chalal (h2490)khaw-lal'; ... to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute) : - begin.... eat (as common things), * first, gather the grape thereof, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound. </font>
Asap was NOT a spiritual "worship leader! During the building of the temple the EXCELLERS were slave drivers!
  • <font color=blue> Acaph (h623) aw-sawf'; from 622; collector; Asaph, the name of three Isr., and of the family of the first: - Asaph. </font>
Amazingly the GUILDS of musicians were named after Canaanite guilds. The word "aboriginal" meant that it was believed that they were SELF-GENERATED from under the earth. They were symbolized by SCORPIONS. The Lesbian singers are claimed to be the first who took poetry intended to be RECITED and added tunefulness and instrumental music.

The word "ministered" means a MENIAL or WORSHIP. You are not gonna find true worshipers flinging their hands if they think they are in the presence of God: they SERVE or do bondage with fear and trembling. However, the word normalll indicates servants or slaves. Of the Queen of Sheba:
  • <font color=blue>And the meat of his table, and the sitting of his servants, and the attendance of his ministers, and their apparel, and his cupbearers, and his ascent by which he went up unto the house of the Lord; there was no more spirit in her. 1K.10:5 </font>
This was at the Jebusite High Place after David was too fearful to return to Gibeon which was the lawful place of the Tabernacle.

The word SERVICE does not mean WORSHIP but from HAND means
  • <font color=blue>Yad (h3027) yawd; a prim. word; a hand (the open one [indicating power, means, direction, etc.], in distinction from 3709, the closed one); used (as noun. adv., etc.) in a great variety of applications, both lit. and fig., both proximate and remote [as follow]: - (/ be) able, * about, / armholes, at, axletree, charge, custody, debt, dominion, throwing, thumb, work, </font>
The SERVICE of the singers and later musicians is defined by a word meaning HARD BONDAGE much like the word Abadown.

The SONG is:
  • <font color=blue> Shiyr (h7892) sheer; or fem. shyrah shee-raw'; from 7891; a song; abstr. singing: - musical (-ick), * sing (-er, -ing), song </font>
This word is used of Laban who had cheated Jacob with a DRUNKEN celebration with wine and music so he was so drunk that he didn't know which girl he was sleeping with.
  • <font color=blue> Wherefore didst thou flee away secretly, and steal away from me; and didst not tell me, that I might have sent thee away with mirth, and with songs, with tabret, and with harp? Ge.31:27 </font>
You will notice the universal meaning in the old testament: even though a word is sometimes TRANSLATED as music, is that an instrument is never included unless it is named. The same is true of our word SONG.

When Moses sang a song you will notice the fact that singing never involved our kind of charismatic singing;
  • <font color=blue>THEN sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. Ex.15:1 </font>
Remember that Paul said in a HIDDEN PARABLE that we are to SPEAK the inspired text.

When david spake or recited HE WAS singing in both the Hebrew and Greek world. If you READ a Psalm in the Synagogue it was calleld singing or cantillation. The object was not to stir up the senses but to teach:
  • <font color=blue> Now therefore write ye this song for you, and teach it the children of Israel: put it in their mouths, that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel. De.31:19 </font>
They, much better than we understood that SPEAK to one another means SPEAK as in the word SPEAK. The idea was to put it into their mouth just the way we memorized the Gettysburg Address. Next day teacher wanted you, as ANOTHER, to speak the message back to her to make sure you knew it. She had no interest in you cutting it up and insulting Abraham and entertaining her.

Again, when David got himself naked and vile the SING must always define an intrument if instrument (possible by the definition of the word because it was metrical) was included it was ALWAYS NAMED. David PLAYED just as the Israaelites PLAYED in musical idolatry and "making self vile." To humble self and making oneself vile including sodomy was to PROOF to God that the worshiper was so inferior that they could not be punished.
  • <font color=blue> And David and all Israel played before God [Had God in a box] with all their might, and with singing, and with harps, and with psalteries, and with timbrels, and with cymbals, and with trumpets. 1Chr.13:8 </font>
If I ask a musician to SING a song, it is metrical and can be accompanied by an instrument.

A psaltery is from an "empty wineskin" used as an echo chamber or the familiar spirit of the Witch of Endor. It is derived from a word which means:
  • <font color=blue>Nabal (h5034) naw-bale'; a prim. root; to wilt; gen. to fall away, fail, faint; fig. to be foolish or (mor.) wicked; causat. to despise, disgrace: - disgrace, dishonour, lightly esteem, fade (away, - ing), fall (down, -ling, off), do foolishly, come to nought, * surely, make vile, wither.. </font>
David TOLD Michal that he made himself vile (Halal or Chalal) and would be held in honor by the slave girls.

When singing and instruments are named it is not a worship word even as it was not before David's Tent:
  • <font color=blue>And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Is.23:15 </font>
Then
  • <font color=red>
    • Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Is.23:16
    </font>
The word SING which includes instruments is from the Hebrew
  • <font color=blue>Shiyr (h7891) sheer; or (the orig. form) 7788 (1 Sam. 18:6), shoor; a prim. root [rather ident. with 7788 through the idea of strolling minstrelsy]; to sing: - behold [by mistake for 7788], sing (-er, - ing man, -ing woman).

    Shuwr (h7788) shoor; a prim. root; prop. to turn, i. e. travel about (as a harlot or a merchant): - go, sing. See also 7891. [Remember that Lucifer or Zoe was both a singing and harp playing prostitute and a trafficker]

    The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas. Eze.27:25

    Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Am.5:23

    That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; Am.6:5

    Shuwr (h7790) shoor; from 7889; a foe (as lying in wait): - enemy. </font>
Who can doubt that God made sure that we knew that "making music" in His presence is the work of spiritual adulterers. By claiming authority from the Levites they are cursed with the persona of warriors and spiritual killers.

Sorry, the Bible always associates "music" as it did in the temple as a way to gloat over slaughtering tens of thousands of types of God in Jesus Christ. The history of the MOST VILE pagan temples sends us the message that neither singers, musicians or rheotoricians EVER entered into the Holy Place which symbolizes the church of Christ. When the priest looks into the Most Holy Place at the incense altar there was a HALF HOUR OF SILENCE: the Lord is in His Holy temple (me) and you WILL be silent or I will be gone.

Modern charismatic singing is much more destructive and emotionally polluting than a pipe organ!

Ken
Ken, you and this site 'almost' make me ashamed to be a Christian, because there are SOCIAL CLUBS that show more love than you exhibit in this forum. I only pray that people who are hurting and seeking the Lord DO NOT find this site in web searches for 'Church' or 'Churches of Christ' so that they are not disillusioned about real Christianity. Make no mistakes, you are no where near reflecting the heart of Jesus in reaching the lost by the words you write here. You, with all due respect sir, are a Pharisee!

Please tell me, where does the 'woman at the well' fit in your world? Would you welcome a repeatedly married adulteress in your congregation to help her to find salvation in the Lord? Or would you condemn her to hell because she doesn't quite understand every aspect of Church of Christ doctrine? Aren't her sins forgiveable?

Speaking of Church of Christ doctrine, what do you think caused 3,000 people to be baptized and added to the church on the day of Pentecost (look it up - 3,000 people, in ONE day)! Well now, let's see - it couldn't be Church doctrine because the Bible wasn't even completely written by that point. They had no idea about worship style except Jewish or paganistic. So, could it be that people understood the simplicity of the true Gospel - they were sinners in need of a savior?

So, Ken, where would YOU suggest today's 'woman at the well' find salvation and spiritual healing? Would she find that at your congregation? When was the last time an adult found healing at Jesus feet in your congregation and was baptized? How many people so far in 2004 have been brought to the Lord at your place of worship? If the answer isn't at least a dozen or so, you all have a lot of work to do, as does the Church as a whole. Do you really think there is that FEW people around you needing Jesus?

Speaking of Pentecost, please tell me, what would you think of a congregation in current times that baptized 3,000 people in ONE day? Would you say they are 'watering down the gospel'? Please don't fall back on the old 'God doesn't work that way anymore' cop out. God can work in any way He wants to. I frankly don't see why he would be more active then than He is now. I ask again - what is YOUR assessment of Pentecost? Weak Gospel preaching, a worship style to bring in the masses, or the simple, beautiful TRUTH?
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 12th, 2004, 3:35 pm #77

Dear Ken, I wrote to you one time before explaining that
on most issues, I agree with you. The same is still
true. I enjoy reading what you have to say with one exception: your posts are so long! You obviously have
studied God's word quite a bit and there are many of us
on here who benifit from your posts, but each one is an
epistle! I know if I see your name listed as the latest
reply, plan to spend about two hours reading it! (Of
course I exaggerate - just being humorous!) Seriously,
I think you have a lot of good things to say, and I know
sometimes that takes a lot of time (or space). However,
getting to the point with out all the exegesis and
lengthy notations would make your posts more readable
(and to some younger christians, understandable). I look
forward, as always, to reading your posts in the future,
hopefully in "reader's digest" form! In Christian love,
Kurt Bowers.
Thanks for both the plussess and minuses: I totally agree with you but perhaps I should explain what should be obvious.

First, I began collecting data long ago trying to reconcile a paradox which is consistent with the statement of Jesus that "truth had been hidden in parables from the foundation of the world." That means (from othe passages) long before Genesis 1:1. Why is it that the Bible from Genesis to Revelation connects MUSIC to children's games, prostitutes, sodomites and those who made a GREAT CRASHING noise to serve the PRIESTS as they slaughtered tens of thousands of types of Lord Jesus Christ--and FALSE TEACHERS such as Max Lucado and the Rubel Shelly PREACH FOR A PRICE-ALWAYS FOR A PRICE that the Holy Spirit is God's "song writer and dance master"? Oh for another of katy's blue berry muffins to keep from gagging at the thought that while the bible calls such nonsense BUFFONERY as a MARK of His wrath, those whose relationship to these teachers is "closer than the blood of Christ" and certainly closer than being HONEST with money and MINISTERING TO or serving old widows rather than both FLEECING them and CRAUNCHING THEIR BONES. The majority MUST be wrong and the REMNANT is always tiny and "outside the city" or little kingdom.

Unlike ALL modern writing (mine excepted -:0) which can be exhausted at one reading, the Bible is inspired. But that is not provable until at baptism and only at baptism we request A holy spirit or A good conscience or consiousness or a "co-perception" of the Word. The Bible was written in ITS culture and is highly spiritual (rational or technical). That means that a word or concept is a POINTER to a huge store house of information preserved in the classics or other literature which defines the concept as a Paul would have understood it so that THOSE readers could connect baptism to salvation because "baptisma' meant "regeneration." Paul CANNOT be understood well enough to CHARGE FOR IT without being literate in the Classics.

Now Jesus being God would not try to fool us, but those not OF THE TRUTH or OF FAITH might read SPEAK or PREACH to one another and build a huge industry of RELIGIOSITY or CHRISTIANISM out of translating TEACH, ADMONISH AND SPEAK as "SING to one another using Twila Paris and making MELODY with your voice, your hands or an instrument."

In the Greek resources the word "for" or "EIS is NEVER" used in the sense of BECAUSE OF. However, those not OF TRUTH can read it "believers, repent and be baptized BECAUSE your sins were remitted because God picked you from eternity past to be saved."

Now, I write and explain about 200 topics TO MYSELF. I am slow and I often repeat myself at going on 74 and having had my church TAKEN CAPTIVE and my resources DIVERTED I have EARNED it. These are my FILES and "those who seek to know the truth" will find strings, tape and bits of paper "filed" in these topics. But here is what you do.

For instance, I take a published sermon, say the weekly (weakly) sermons of Rubel Shelly who has LOST the power to see and hear Christ the Holy Spirit because he and Max Lucado think (uniquely to history) That God is A Family of three God's: See where the family, community or commune comes from? The "scholars" at Hohnwald still woorshuup-uh the NAMES of Father, Jesus and Spirit and can get nasty when you suggest that the GA material is WRONG in inventing (first) the idea that the Godhead is THREE, INDEPENDANT members of a STANDING COMMITTEE.

Rubel Shelly thinks we can COLOR the S.O.N. God as the S.U.N. god so I color his comments in RED. "True" scholarly quotes and other references are in BLUE. My comments are in BLACK. So, you can read all or parts of Rubel's sermon (for which people PAY proving Paul's statement that "fools love to be fooled.") just by reading the Red. Read the ALWAYS repudiating statements in Blue. If I write too much (for me, remember) you can skip ALL of the black. Now, don't you wish you could do that with almost ALL sermonizing which Peter OUTLAWED?

I link and cross link the Bible, the Babylonian Tablets, the contemporaneous to the bible literature, the Classics, the church Fathers, Restoration documents and my OWN blather. When I LOSE a precious jewel of knowledge I can usually SEARCH my site and find it. Since I often do a THESIS daily don't expect things to clear up anytime soon. Preachers 'splain it to you: if you are a DISCIPLE or Christian (only baptized disciples are called Christians) YOU will have to work out the meaning for yourself. After all, it is a lie that Paul PREACHED from 9:30 until midnight. The word is DIALOG or discuss or COMMUNE. David sang psalms to HIMSELF and meditated in his HEART. Only when you MUSE do you learn and that is why PREACHING as "prophets, channellers and facilitators" (Re ACU) have destroyed the church by being ENABLERS to elders "more APT to chase a coon than APT to know anything about the Bible or even TOLERATE the Bible "as it has been written." God will never forget and never forgive because of such AFFLICTIONS imposed on people based on a TOTALY PERVERTED view of church and the Word and the "biblical" Jesus.

Aren't you sorry you asked?

Ken
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Joined: June 10th, 2004, 4:42 am

July 13th, 2004, 3:28 am #78

I am glad I asked! Thanks for the explanation. I am
nearly color blind, but my wife can help me with the
different print colors. One thing I am wondering about
from your comments is: Do you believe in the Trinity?
It sounds as though you don't. Your understanding of it
would be great to hear. Thanks again, Kurt Bowers.
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Kenneth sublett
Kenneth sublett

July 14th, 2004, 4:16 am #79

The "office" at Hohenwald will rejoice that two more glands are acting up. I will spend from 7 to about noon tomorrow at outpatient in Columbia to decide what if anything to do about them.

As soon as I return I will do a "short" essay on the trinity.

For now I can tell you that I have found no exception among those who believe that God was in Christ reconciling the world except H. Leo Boles who was editor of the Gospel Advocate and, I believe, president of Lipscomb to the TOTAL concensus that the Godhead is NOT a standing committee of three persons where persons is identified as "people." That is, the Godhead has skills or even evil propensities to do, as Rubel Shelly "jokes?" have the Father god and the Spirit God play a dirty rotten trick on the little Son god (sons are always a bit stupid) so that HE would have to die for the sins of the World.

John Mark Hicks, another troubler in Zion, admits that it was Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly who latched onto the THREE GODS view of Lipscomb and the G.A. to resurface or popularize a neo-trinity among churches of Christ. T. Campbell repudiated John Calvin because he used the word PERSON but Calvin rejected the idea of the Trinity of persons. T. Campbell could find no better word and therefore used it by warning that tis can have no meaning in the real world.

I was astounded when returning to Hohenwald that they had this DISPENSATIONAL-FIT Godhead down so pat that they worshipped the NAMES of the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I knew that something had hit the fan when I suggested that there were not three "persons" which they had figured out as different PEOPLE doing the dispensation they were BEST QUALIFIED to do. No "trinitarian" ever suggested that God is three persons: the word is "personae" which is a bit different. The idea that God was cut up like a pecan pie was always considered grotesque and, according to Paul Tillich, a heresy.

I would say that the almost universal smothering by RELIGIONISTS and ACTORS is based on the fact that they reject the ONE God. This allows them to reject the olden Bible which Rubel Shelly (their savior) says was "worked out in fear in trembling" by the people PARTERNING with God. Now that culture has change (like wow!) WE have to partner with God to work out a new set of Scriptures. The view that the Holy Spirit is the god of this dispensation makes repudiating the bible and saying "I don't care what the bible says" easy. However, "Holy" is not a first name. This view MARKS out people who believe that their understanding trumps Jesus and the Word because they are LED to believe that by the Spirit "person."

More tomorrow. Watch the fur fly!

Ken Sublett
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 15th, 2004, 12:34 am #80

Sorry, I lied: I flunked the test so it is back to the doctor in the morning. Just no energy left: too many viper bites.

Ken
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