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I would simply like to say as a first-time and probably last time viewer of this site (unless I want to waste my time listening to Ken spew his "view" on everyone else). I know that there are churches that have problems, but I believe that the last place any of us need to turn is the internet and to some comments from people who "may" not really have a clue as to what is really going on. I know from experiance that there have been some in various church that I have attended leave and say..."well this is happening" when in reality it never did and never would have. People who tend to be pharisaical tend to not look at what is really happening. For one to comment in the public about what they do or don't like about a church really hurts a church. I have heard people complain about the church where I am at, and I have heard some in the commiunity say they would never attend here because of the complaining they have heard from "some"...why don't all these people and some on here realize that they do more damage to the church than a simple matter of personal difference would ever do. Far to many people feel that a certain congregation is "their" church...it is not..it is Christs'. When we do things like this website does "bashing" churches based upon "letters" and "hearsay" we harm the Lord's church and make it a mockery! It was very disturbing to see the "childish" -- "you said, no you said" go on...it is just to bad...I believe if God's people spent more time studying His word they would not have the time to come up with problems that everyone else has!Dear Mr. Sublett,
Glen Gray: I am the Involvement Minister at the East Brainerd congregation. I have no son, though I have often wanted one.
Ken: That's good: I don't know you and didn't say anything about your son!
Glen Gray: Research is vital -- hearsay can be dangerous. I have been at EBCC for the past six and a half years. As in any AGGRESSIVE evangelistic work, there are going to be some who are converted to Christ that still have lots of growing to do. Some will want to "bring in" elements of denominationalism that cannot be part of the worship or work of the body of Christ. They should be and can be taught in a loving manner. I agree with you that some things being promoted in other congregations are dangerous and unbiblical.
Ken: That's good: I didn't say anything against love. The problem may be REJECTION of a foreign organ. The church exist as a SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST to meet weekly for worship which is GIVING HEED to the Word and not the performers. The church HAS NO AGGRESSIVE genes. It sends out EVANGELISTS (Not "located travelling salesmen") to DISCIPLE or Teach the Word. Paul solved the DIVERSE BACKGROUND in Romans 15 by defining church as a NOT FOR PRODUCING EXCITEMENT OR PLEASURE and for speaking WITH ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH "that which is written by the Spirit of Christ."
Glen Gray: That is not the case at East Brainerd. I consider myself very conservative when it comes to the Scripture, but very liberal when it comes to TRADITIONS and human opinion. Be careful that you do not get the two confused.
Ken: I don't know what you do at East Brainerd, didn't say that you were liberal about Scripture. Said nothing about your church. The issue was brought up by one of YOUR members, not me. The growth speech sounds just like others who will DO ANYTHING in their words to gain "converts." I identified what to look for: if it doesn't fit you then it fits the thousands of others who may want to know what is going on in their church. I don't know why doing anything scriptural would cause you troubles.
Do you consider NOT using choirs traditional? Do you believe that instrumental music is ok to attract outsiders? Most "professionals" "pass through college" and wind up pretty ignorant of the meaning of Scripture and its historical background.
Glen Gray: There are elements of "church growth" which cannot be used, must not be used in and by the body of Christ. But any discerning eldership or preacher of the gospel should be able to "weed out" those things while still using those elements that are beneficial and do not violate Scripture.
Ken: CHURCH GROUTH IS A CULT: it has no role in the Synagogue of Christ. Many other church elders are using their wisdom to declare that the Bible "does not say don't use instruments so we are going to use them." When it comes to choirs or "musical worship teams" (heretical in its terminology) or instrumental music the cant SEE, HEAR or SPEAK anything against instruments. I say that they are Biblically illiterate. If that isn't what is causing the trouble then I didn't address you our your church.
It is LEGALISTIC and non-Christian to decide to do something which has never been approved and declare that it is ok because it DOES NOT VIOLATE SCRIPTURE. Those who have been offended may have a deeper understanding about what Scripture SAYS. The elders are NEVER command leaders: Jesus modeled the SON by speaking only what He heard from the FATHER who was with Him. Paul circumscribed the role of the elders by demanding that "THEY TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" AND REBUKE "THOSE WHO OPPOSE IT." No human elder has any DECIDING role about doing something they feel OK because not LEGALISTICALLY CONDEMNED. The church is the EKKLESIA or Synagogue of Christ: it is more A School of the Bible than pagan worship center. Paul's UNIQUE worship word means to GIVE HEED to the Word and to Christ. The CHURCH is not an EVANGELISM TOOL and it has no Scriptural staff such as OUTREACH MINISTER. This usurps the role of the body and especially the Deacons who have the same OUTREACH teaching authority and responsibility as the elders. The definition of the word Deacon means that they are the MINISTERS of the flock and history proves that they filled this role with NO WAGED roles available in the local congregation. Perhaps, the problem is that you have edged into an unlawful role, demanded a WAGE from the people, assume COMMAND LEADERSHIP over them and resent it when the OWNERS dare question the hirelings.
Glen Gray: You have indicated in your writing that Boyd-Buchanan administrators and teachers are being contaminated by associated with the EBC. What do you mean? Do you have anything in mind? Or is this just a fallacious accusation without support to incite doubt and confidence in the Lord's church?
Ken: I HAVE NOT: This is the first use of Boyd-Buchanan in this forum: you mentioned it. I have said nothing about Boyd-Buchanan, its leadership or its connection. Better go back and read again.
Glen Gray: I would like to read your response and I'm looking forward to hearing from you.
Ken: here it is and you have been a false accuser on every point. What do you hope to gain by this when every reader can see that it is false? The guilt clause is to try to shift the blame. You may want to explain in detail what YOU are doing to cause the pain. If you are above the old TRADITIONS then you can solve your churches problem by defining what WE are doing which is just TRADITION. And please explain why the explosion of STAFF JOBS when there is not a SINGLE role in the church to tempt those "who see godliness as a means of financial gain." That doesn't mean greedy: that means "seeing godliness as a means of OCCUPATION." The BODY of Christ has no professional OR ARTIFICIAL MINDS OR HEARTS which assume the role of forcing the peaceable kingdom into PRODUCING more PRODUCT to pay for the artificial MIND or SPIRIT which used to be Jesus Christ.
I think being officious "to eat up widow's houses" and the "inventing new doctrine, like the Pharisees, specifically to silence the Word of God" is the RIPE BOIL in man congregations and you must praise God that they do not let their PLEADING for help cause them to go to the courts to pry off the BURDEN LADERS using the widows and hard working people like pack animals rather than obey the GO for the honest evangelist.
Most families have two wage earners and then find that they cannot send their kids to college. If you would, like Paul's direct command and approved example, you could MINISTER to them by NOT taking their bread.
If the LAW OF GIVING does not exist and Paul would call ours EXTORTION then just how do the ELDERS get the money to do something THEY are not qualified to do. Thomas Campbell said that they HAVE NO AUTHORITY to add burdens which INCREASES THE ANXIETY of the local body of Bible students.
Does anyone have a transcript about the name of the church:Using material from Willowcreek for Sunday School- 'Kingdom Kids'.This term "Kingdom Kids" also used for the kids classes in one of the largest Community churches in this area. Beginning to form small groups. Launching new building program. Bringing in Financial Management consultacy for members to train them to budget, and educate them about giving the church annuities etc. Remains to be seen what the actual plan of the church is, ultimately. The above only mentioned because these seem to be the kind of things that change first in the Community Church transition.
Looks like the preacher person and the "master of surveys"has moved on. However, in the middle of their homepage:Using material from Willowcreek for Sunday School- 'Kingdom Kids'.This term "Kingdom Kids" also used for the kids classes in one of the largest Community churches in this area. Beginning to form small groups. Launching new building program. Bringing in Financial Management consultacy for members to train them to budget, and educate them about giving the church annuities etc. Remains to be seen what the actual plan of the church is, ultimately. The above only mentioned because these seem to be the kind of things that change first in the Community Church transition.