HISTORIC views of the Trinity: Frank Jamerson Blasphemy of Holy Spirit

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 2nd, 2013, 8:48 pm #101

I thought you would be an exception and tell us you have read Romans 8 in context and understand that Paul would never accuse the A Holy Spirit Person "groaning."

It is a statement of fact that I don't know any preacher who does not preach out of their own head and collects those proof texts to validate their conclusion.

I wish that I did know one: if anyone knows of one they might post one of their sermons. Don't blame me for not knowing what I don't know.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 2nd, 2013, 9:28 pm #102

Ken, be sure to "keep your powder dry". You never know when you will need to condemn another fellow Christian. Good day.
Serious, you want us to believe statements by Waddey (generally a good scholar) and then STOP teaching what we believe to be the truth.

Serious, in spite of the masses of information which defines the meaning of Father, Spirit and Son as opposed to all pagans and ancient trinitiarians as the MOTHER of a DAUGHTER, MY EXPERIENCES are that preachers gleefully ignore the 99 percent. Spirit is equated to Wisdom in proverbs and SHE is a female SUPERIOR to the LOGOS.

FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S INFORMATION I ALSO QUOTE THE HALF-TRUTH.

We know that the Spirit strengthens the Christian with power in the inward man (Eph. 3:16)

He means A Spirit Person or PEOPLE: no historic Scholar used our word PERSON but PERSONA of face or mask.

Paul never speaks in isolated verses, and he most often uses forms of parallelism. For instance, I have removed the upper case because there is no such distinction in the Bible.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

In the beginning the Spirit which filled Jesus was Christ the Rock etc.

1Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold WISDOM of God,

Historic trinitarians insist that the ONE GOD always had His Word and His Wisdom with Him: why would anyone want to chop the Spirit OFF God off God and make IT another people?

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
to be strengthened with might

.....by his spirit in the inner man;
.....[mind or spirit: not in the carnal body]

Which is parallell and which MEANS:

.....That Christ may dwell in your hearts<b></b> BY faith;
.....THAT ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Ephesians 3:17

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and not by direct operation of a CUT OFF Spirit person. As an assigned Agent after His Glorification Jesus the Righteous is the "another Comforter" or Holy Spirit.

Preachers should learn how to gracefully defend their position especially if they are getting paid to spread them around. A disciple INSISTS on hearing all of the truth. Since this is our free pulpit I am sure that you would understand that you should ask us to stop teaching what we believe contrary to the invention of LU in 1938 as a deviation from recorded scholarship.</font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 2nd, 2013, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 2nd, 2013, 10:33 pm #103

I thought you wanted this endless debate about the Godhead to be over. But apparently you don't. Somehow, you feel a ... need ... to continue.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Yes, I did. But only in discussing this particular subject matter WITH YOU -- which is futile to you but which I consider is of interest to others who believe there is something to learn.

In fact, I'm planning on creating a thread on the Godhead ... considering the limited time I have. When I do that, I'm going to kindly ask you not to participate in it. I'll be discussing it with others.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

B
B

March 3rd, 2013, 1:30 am #104

When you start censoring boards, you indicate that you feel theologically threatened. You apparently wish only viewpoints from those who basically agree with you. In your new thread about the Godhead, will you present ALL viewpoints, like the Godhead consists simply of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, or will you omit that entirely?

You're taking on the face of a fascist, and that, my friend, is NO WAY to run a board.
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 3rd, 2013, 1:41 am #105

Frank Jamerson on Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was offered as the non-institutional view of God as THREE PERSONS. He disputed saying that the NAME of the Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ but Scripture says that the another or changed Jesus Christ IS The Name of the Holy Spirit or MIND of Christ as in 1 corinthians 2

http://www.piney.com/Frank.Jamerson.Bla ... pirit.html

Maybe we should unload the "new minister" thread although he/they undoubtedly think that the Spirit OF Christ is another POST-MODERN, POST-CHRISTIAN clear channel directly from God.

Men like C. Leonard Allen thinks that now that the MODERN views have been trashed (your godly ancestors and preachers before apostasy) we can look BACKWARD and understand God by looking at history.

http://www.piney.com/Trinity.Leonard.Allen.html

I don't consider any of these Bible Scholars or even Disciples because they don't believe the Word and therefore cannot understand it.

While Paul Tillich is not an authority, he does know when the neo-trinitarianism (ACU, DLC, Peppperdine) was spawned.

"There is much gnostic Marcionism in them, that is, a dualistic blasphemy of the Creator God. They put the Savior God in such opposition to the Creator God that, although they never fall into any real heresy, they implicitly blaspheme the divine creation by identifying it with the sinful state of reality.

Against this tendency Irenaeus said that God is one; there is no duality in him.
---Law and gospel,
---creation and salvation,
---are derived from the same God."
---(Tillich, Paul, A History of Christian Thought, p. 42)

"This God is never called a person. The word person was never applied to God in the Middle ages. The reason for this is that the three members of the trinity were called personae (faces or countenances): The Father is persona, the Son is persona, and the Spirit is persona. Persona here means a special characteristic of the divine ground, expressing itself in an independent hypostasis.

"Thus, we can say that it was the nineteenth century which made God into a person, with the result that the greatness of the classical idea of God was destroyed by this way of speaking... but to speak of God as a person would have been heretical for the Middle Ages; it would have been to them a Unitarian heresy, because it would have conflicted with the statement that God has three personae, three expressions of his being. (Tillich, Paul, A History of Christian Thought, p. 190)
I did a little more checking today: Still cannot find any exception to the pattern that people look through a topical Bible for every mention of "spirit." Then, they put the isolated proof-text in order to prove that a Holy Spirit Person does what all Scripture says that God does through assigned people through whom He POURS FOURTH or SHED the Holy Spirit. Poured in connection with the Bible can only have to do with Jesus Christ in His changed office as Holy (wholly) Spirit pouring forth His Words which He says ARE Spirit and Life. John 6:63

You will never become a real disciple until you quit using preachers and musicians as your MEDIATORS. True joy comes when you get A holy spirit or A good conscience (consciousness or a CO-perception) so that, in Paul's message in 2 Cor 3 you can read BLACK text on BROWN

Then you will be able to read this text without getting all out of shape and maybe blaspheming.

2Corinthians 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Why so quick to say that Paul was a liar as theologians now assert and pay them too?

2Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit OF the Lord.

Of is still a preposition and I am sorry that you missed that.

I'M sorry but an honorable preacher or song leader knows that they are NOT capable of speaking beyond the sacred pages. Besides, Christ in Isaiah 58 OUTLAWED speaking your own words as did Paul in all of the NEVER musical passages.

2Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The ONLY worship concept is taking heed to the Word (only) of Christ (only) in the Prophets (by Christ) and the prophecies made more certain (by Jesus Christ) and left for our MEMORIES by the writers who finished their PARTS. Listening to a preacher's AIDING the Word is NOT worship IN SPIRIT or IN TRUTH.

All sowing of discord is listening to people who CLAIM that a spirit told them to change something: he knows (as Paul asserts) that fools love to be fooled.

I have a plan to CEASE this discussion as soon as I feel my feet lifting off. This IS a Salvation issue.

Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 3rd, 2013, 2:11 am #106

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Yes, I did. But only in discussing this particular subject matter WITH YOU -- which is futile to you but which I consider is of interest to others who believe there is something to learn.

In fact, I'm planning on creating a thread on the Godhead ... considering the limited time I have. When I do that, I'm going to kindly ask you not to participate in it. I'll be discussing it with others.[/color]
Since it's your pulpit we should be able to have the ushers remove those who go around in circles and blaspheme.

The Words of Christ ARE Spirit and ARE Life and it should be possible to post "that which is written for our learning."

Anyone one who has a contrary opinion should be able to post text.

Jesus Christ was God's SINGULAR image to repudiate the ALWAYS-pagan triads especially common to the apostate Jews who were no longer of Israel.

The same John Who recorded Jesus say of the changed Comforter "I will come to you" and Jesus claimed that the FATHER Spirit dwelled IN Him and BREATHED the very Words of God. If you deny the construct of;

One God the Father in Heaven (in Him we live, move and have our being"

And Jesus of Nazareth Whom God MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ.

John says that if you deny that you have NEITHER the Father nor Son and you are an ANTI-Christ. I understand the tragedy of those who cannot accept that because they have moved beyond redemption.

That should not be a problem since there is no Pre-Post-Modern scholarship which says otherwise even the original Nicene Creed.

Quote
Like
Share

William
William

March 3rd, 2013, 5:28 am #107

Serious, you want us to believe statements by Waddey (generally a good scholar) and then STOP teaching what we believe to be the truth.

Serious, in spite of the masses of information which defines the meaning of Father, Spirit and Son as opposed to all pagans and ancient trinitiarians as the MOTHER of a DAUGHTER, MY EXPERIENCES are that preachers gleefully ignore the 99 percent. Spirit is equated to Wisdom in proverbs and SHE is a female SUPERIOR to the LOGOS.

FOR OTHER PEOPLE'S INFORMATION I ALSO QUOTE THE HALF-TRUTH.

We know that the Spirit strengthens the Christian with power in the inward man (Eph. 3:16)

He means A Spirit Person or PEOPLE: no historic Scholar used our word PERSON but PERSONA of face or mask.

Paul never speaks in isolated verses, and he most often uses forms of parallelism. For instance, I have removed the upper case because there is no such distinction in the Bible.

Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

In the beginning the Spirit which filled Jesus was Christ the Rock etc.

1Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold WISDOM of God,

Historic trinitarians insist that the ONE GOD always had His Word and His Wisdom with Him: why would anyone want to chop the Spirit OFF God off God and make IT another people?

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
to be strengthened with might

.....by his spirit in the inner man;
.....[mind or spirit: not in the carnal body]

Which is parallell and which MEANS:

.....That Christ may dwell in your hearts<b></b> BY faith;
.....THAT ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Ephesians 3:17

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God and not by direct operation of a CUT OFF Spirit person. As an assigned Agent after His Glorification Jesus the Righteous is the "another Comforter" or Holy Spirit.

Preachers should learn how to gracefully defend their position especially if they are getting paid to spread them around. A disciple INSISTS on hearing all of the truth. Since this is our free pulpit I am sure that you would understand that you should ask us to stop teaching what we believe contrary to the invention of LU in 1938 as a deviation from recorded scholarship.</font>
I am dismayed by this thread.

The term "Godhead" is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9. Three different Greek words are used, but each one in some way references that quality which makes God God. None of them mean, or imply, trinity. In Jacobean English, when the suffix head was applied, it meant the quality of or the nature of. Such as maidenhead to refer to the quality or state of being a maiden: a virgin.

Quoted from the NAS makes this clearer. I think maybe the ESV does even better.

Acts 17:29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Colossians 1:(8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (10) and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...


God makes his power manifest in divers ways; the man Jesus having been one way, and the Holy Spirit of God being one way. In the Bible, there is not any polytheistic trinity, no Godhead. Im o.k. with Waddeys use of the sacred three, but Godhead is a misinterpretation.
Quote
Share

B
B

March 3rd, 2013, 6:41 am #108

Not "Trinity" as such, just Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's that simple.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 3rd, 2013, 7:29 am #109

I am dismayed by this thread.

The term "Godhead" is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; Colossians 2:9. Three different Greek words are used, but each one in some way references that quality which makes God God. None of them mean, or imply, trinity. In Jacobean English, when the suffix head was applied, it meant the quality of or the nature of. Such as maidenhead to refer to the quality or state of being a maiden: a virgin.

Quoted from the NAS makes this clearer. I think maybe the ESV does even better.

Acts 17:29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Colossians 1:(8) See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. (9) For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (10) and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority...


God makes his power manifest in divers ways; the man Jesus having been one way, and the Holy Spirit of God being one way. In the Bible, there is not any polytheistic trinity, no Godhead. Im o.k. with Waddeys use of the sacred three, but Godhead is a misinterpretation.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I'd say: blame it on the Trinity creed. The Godhead is just fine until it is misrepresented by the RCC/papacy/Nicene Creed. Protestantism is no help by propagating the pope's invention.

The Godhead is rather simple when those 3 passages that I've quoted over and over are taken in context -- as specified in Romans 1 and Colossians 2, it is all about: (a) God our Father and (b) His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ultimately, Colossians 1:9 summarizes it all -- "For in him (JESUS CHRIST) dwelleth all the FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD bodily." No more ... no less.

FULNESS means COMPLETENESS in Jesus Christ.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 3rd, 2013, 7:44 am #110

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]So, what about the Holy Spirit? What about "in the NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"? The context is that Jesus commissioned his disciples, WHILE HE WAS HUMAN AND ALIVE with them, to baptize in ONE NAME that includes the Holy Spirit. [But NOTE: He was referring to himself both: (a) as the Son in the flesh and (b) as the Holy Spirit upon RESURRECTION -- no longer in the flesh. Should one even doubt that he was a spirit and no longer in human form when He was resurrected from death?]

When we carefully study "IN THE NAME OF" elsewhere in Scripture, we will no longer find the long name. In numerous instances, it is now "in the NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST." That's because the resurrected Christ is the Comforter, the Spirit of truth (John 14-16).

1. Be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38)
2. They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 8:16)
3. Commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord (Acts 10:48)
4. They were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus (Acts 19:5)

5. ... and numerous other passages.

We, as Christians, should be aware of, indwelt by the Spirit of Jesus Christ (I Peter 1:11; Phil. 1:19; Gal. 4:6; Romans 8:9;)

Those are important passages in knowing about "the Spirit of Jesus Christ." They should explain why "the Holy Spirit" in the NAME is NOT ANOTHER BEING in the Godhead.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share