Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 4th, 2013, 4:01 am #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Speaking of church leadership in a "progressive" church of Christ, care must be taken. [By "progressive," I mean a congregation of the church of Christ, under the direction of its "leadership," undergoing changes in doctrine and practices in the process of transformation based on the "Community Church" model. This has been "work in progress" at Madison for over a decade now.]

In leadership, to the progressive the word "elders" may connote strictness or meanness, but the word "shepherds" may suggest kindness or gentleness or being forgiving or "feeling your pain," thus, the preferred term ["shepherds"] to refer to the church leaders. Not that the terminology is incorrect or unscriptural, but just watch out when these leaders refer to themselves as such.

What about this -- the elders' wives given the opportunity to serve during the special Lord's Supper event on "Easter Sunday"?

What about this -- does the Madison church still have deacons? Are they extinct now while women speakers are on stage more and more frequently?

Speaking of the "Worship Leader," just know that it is not an office in the body of Christ. Can you imagine if Peter and Paul and the other apostles, or even Christ Himself, would do today if s/he and the "Praise Team" were accompanying them while preaching the gospel and doing miraculous works? I wouldn't be surprised if Christ did what he did, according to John 2:15 -- "And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.."

The gathering of saints in the assembly has nothing to do with all the "praise" and other rah-rah-rah singing. It certainly is a problem when up to 80% of the assembly time is devoted to this type of "worship." Contemporary worship is mainly all about "praise music" -- and I cannot envision the New Testament church [i.e., in the first century] indulging in such form of musical idolatry, when the early Christians were commanded to study God's truth and teach, teach, teach. Remember "speaking to yourselves, teaching and admonishing one another"? With those musicians, both men and WOMEN, on stage doing their thing with their handheld microphones and snapping their fingers and gyrating -- if that's not performance, what is it???????

You are correct in pointing out that "he [the highly paid 'Worship Leader'] is the reason the people in the mission fields do with out essentials." The truth of the matter is that his salary as a "NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH EMPLOYEE" [?!?!?!?!?] can financially support as many as 10 full-time native preachers in some countries, when they're actually bringing souls to Christ.

I have lived through times when the local church would NOT "celebrate Easter." While the attendance was higher than any of the other Sundays of the year, the emphasis had nothing to do with the festivity itself. Rather, it was an opportunity to explain that the resurrection of Christ, which occurred on the first day of the week, is very significant, but that we observe the Lord's Supper on the first day [resurrection day] of every week.

For the Madison church to create a "special scene of the Lord's Supper" on the designated "Easter Sunday" is beyond me and perhaps many who were in attendance. We are to observe the Lord's Supper by breaking bread and drinking the cup to "do this in remembrance of me."

Since churches of Christ observe the Lord's Supper every first day of the week [i.e., 52 times a year], are "progressive" congregations like Madison really prepared to create this "special scene of the Lord's Supper" every first day of the week [i.e., 52 times a year]?

Yes? No?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 4th, 2013, 4:44 am #12

Donnie I was there also. Tell me the basis of your conjecture that the Lord's Supper was a turn off to many of the congregates? Next question. If one continues to attend a gathering dominated by pagan worship, what does that make them? Please don't use the excuse of warning other congregations as that has become a synonym of the story of the boy who cried wolf. Have you ever considered attending maybe St. Josephs or Cornerstone and starting a website to show them how utterly wrong they are?

At one time you almost had me convinced that there were only three people alive today that had a real chance on making it to heaven. Then when B didn't agree completely with the other two I guess that just left two. I guess the rest of us should be glad that it is up to God to do the judging and not a 21st century website.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]JimmyJoe, thanks for the questions.

Answer 1: The Lord's Supper is NOT about "The Virtual Crosses of Flowers." The Lord's Supper is not about attendees being "instructed to hug and share verbally the marvelous gift of the Christ." The Lord's Supper is NOT about the pagan Easter festivity. The Lord's Supper is NOT about the resurrection

The Lord's Supper is about this: "[24] And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. [25] After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me." (I Cor. 11)

Answer 2: I'm reminded of this passage:[/color]
  • [color=#000000" size="3" face="times][11] To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#000000" size="3" face="times][12] When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#000000" size="3" face="times][13] Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#000000" size="3" face="times][14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#000000" size="3" face="times][15] And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]No, JimmyJoe, perhaps someday, the leadership at Madison will have the courage to merge with St. Joseph's and the Cornerstone. It will be great savings on everybody's part -- one "Worship Leader" and one CHOIR ["Praise Team"] and MUSICAL BAND and with a variety of CREEDS, etc.[/color]
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To the rescue
To the rescue

April 4th, 2013, 1:18 pm #13

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Lovin' Madison:

I was there more than a decade ago when the eldership made the announcement to the congregation: "Get over it; we must move on." That was at the time when the elders themselves were divided over a number of issues.

Well, several elders resigned or left or went somewhere else. Hundreds of members decided to get over it, moved on and sought fellowship somewhere else.

The New Testament clearly specifies the qualifications for the office of an elder. In regard to the "other leaders," being a "worship leader" is not an office.[/color]
You're an idiot.


======================
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"I approved this message."[/color]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on April 5th, 2013, 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 4th, 2013, 4:58 pm #14

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]For a number of years after the church upheaval in 2001, it was either an "Easter drama worship" or an "interactive Easter worship." (I think the drama has run out of dramatic themes or scenes to portray the resurrection of Christ every year.)

In 2013, it was something else -- at the moment I have no word or words to describe all the events that occurred at the Madison "worship center." No, it wasn't about the children and the Easter bunny or Easter rabbit or the Easter eggs. Rather, adults were involved in the Easter flowering of several crosses in the auditorium -- and this was done during the Lord's Supper while the shepherds' [employed] "Worship Leader" and his co-worship leading team of two men and two WOMEN were on stage performing.

[I'm offering the opportunity for Scripture or anyone who's willing to describe in more detail what took place today at "the worship center." Perhaps, Scripture can document for us what took place from the start of the Communion when the quartet went on stage to deliver the rehearsed, programmed worship, the "poem/narrative" reading, etc.?]

There's so much confusion surrounding the "Easter" observance. At least from the standpoint of what the Bible teaches about the suffering and death of Christ about which we commemorate "in remembrance of me." The New Testament refers to: "this is my body" and "this cup is the new testament in my blood." That's about the Lord's Supper. That is not about the resurrection.

I believe that the "progressive" messengers in "progressive" churches are sending the wrong message. The "Easter Sunday" celebration at Madison and other "progressive" congregations of the church of Christ is so programmed, in the first place, designed for a TV production. "God's [semi-professional] elite singers" are ON STAGE to perform during this [pagan-originated-in-the-name-of-religion] Easter celebration. And that's supposed to be concerning the "resurrection" of Christ.

The placement of "the Lord's Supper" [to remember the Lord's death] in the midst this Happy Easter "celebration" is not necessarily what the New Testament instructs the church to do.

Here's the dilemma that the church should be concerned about. We observe the Lord's suffering and death on the cross on the first day of the week -- this is scriptural. But shouldn't the Happy Easter proponents be willing to prepare to skillfully program EVERY FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK the Easter celebration with the Lord's Supper as part of it?[/color]
Those who are TASKED to lead the rebellion do not mind being exposed.

They know that MOST of the people can be fooled MOST of the time. It is a trying time for the ELECT or those called OUT of the World and into the SAFE HOUSE of Jesus Christ but a real Disciple of Christ will not be a fool.

Their inability to suck in seekers with their infantile "worship services" as proof that women and BOYS are now ruling over them proves that in spite of songs and sermons a lot of church of Christ members are within themselves DISCIPLES.


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 5th, 2013, 3:43 am #15

Let Hitler tell you how lots of people were bewitched (that music concept) just like people who drink spiked KoolAid.

http://www.piney.com/mkv2ch06.html

Our founding fathers said that democracy can only work when the people are GOOD. We have watched the sudden seemingly-miraculous sweeping away of too much of that "goodness" and we go deeper in debt to study condoms.

The Bible and key philosophers down through history show how to STEAL another person's country or Church (the definition of heresy). The universities we spawned--like all parasitic entities--have turned around and neuterized the visible Church (kirke, circe) by castrating it just below the chin. They have been willing agents of the DEculturing of America. No one has been so ignorant that they did not know how to manipulation "evolution" by changing the actual brain structure of those fed a steady diet of music poisoning.

Wagner was Hitler's musical worship minister knowing that you can manipulate people into "feeling" worship or into willing operators of gas chambers. I thought someone would like to know that they have helped "gamble away their kingdom" but those in the INVISIBLE kingdom will never fall into the "bait and switch." Hitler's scheme is called the COMMUNITY CHURCH MOVEMENT which erases Christ from it's public confession and insist that INDIVIDUALS no longer have the right to read, interpret or speak the Word. (Rubel Shelly, John York)

The mass meeting is also necessary for the reason that in it the individual, who at first while becoming a supporter of a young movement, feels lonely and easily succumbs to the fear of being alone, for the first time gets the picture of a larger community, which in most people has a strengthening, encouraging effect.

The same man, within a company or a battalion, surrounded by all his comrades, would set out on an attack with a lighter heart than if left entirely on his own.

In the crowd he always feels somewhat sheltered, even if a thousand reasons actually argue against it.

But the community of the great demonstration not only strengthens the individual,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
it also unites and helps to create an esprit de corps.

The man who is exposed to grave tribulations,
.....as the first advocate of a new doctrine in his factory or workshop,
.....absolutely needs that strengthening which lies in the conviction
.....of being a member and fighter in a great comprehensive body.

And he obtains an impression of this body for the first time in the mass demonstration. When from his little workshop or big factory, in which he feels very small, he steps for the first time into a mass meeting
.....and has thousands and thousands of people of the same opinions around him,
<font face="arial" size="4">when, as a seeker, (Als Suchender.' A Wagnerian phrase, which Hitler was apparently determined to use at all costs)

he is swept away by three or four thousand others into the mighty effect of suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm,

when the visible success and agreement of thousands confirm to him the rightness of the new doctrine and for the first time arouse doubt in the truth of his previous conviction -

then he himself has succumbed to the magic influence of what we designate as 'mass suggestion.'

The will, the longing, and also the power of thousands are accumulated in every individual. The man who enters such a meeting doubting and wavering leaves it inwardly reinforced: he has become a link in the community.

The National Socialist movement must never forget this and in particular
it must never let itself be influenced by those bourgeois s who know everything better,
.....but who nevertheless have gambled away a great state
.....including their own existence and the rule of their class.
</font>

Frogs always think they are in a Sauna in a massage parlor.
</font>
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Scripture
Scripture

April 5th, 2013, 2:48 pm #16

You're an idiot.


======================
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"I approved this message."[/color]
Matthew 5:22 But I say, if you are even angry with someone, you are subject to judgment! If you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell. NLT
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 5th, 2013, 4:07 pm #17

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]For a number of years after the church upheaval in 2001, it was either an "Easter drama worship" or an "interactive Easter worship." (I think the drama has run out of dramatic themes or scenes to portray the resurrection of Christ every year.)

In 2013, it was something else -- at the moment I have no word or words to describe all the events that occurred at the Madison "worship center." No, it wasn't about the children and the Easter bunny or Easter rabbit or the Easter eggs. Rather, adults were involved in the Easter flowering of several crosses in the auditorium -- and this was done during the Lord's Supper while the shepherds' [employed] "Worship Leader" and his co-worship leading team of two men and two WOMEN were on stage performing.

[I'm offering the opportunity for Scripture or anyone who's willing to describe in more detail what took place today at "the worship center." Perhaps, Scripture can document for us what took place from the start of the Communion when the quartet went on stage to deliver the rehearsed, programmed worship, the "poem/narrative" reading, etc.?]

There's so much confusion surrounding the "Easter" observance. At least from the standpoint of what the Bible teaches about the suffering and death of Christ about which we commemorate "in remembrance of me." The New Testament refers to: "this is my body" and "this cup is the new testament in my blood." That's about the Lord's Supper. That is not about the resurrection.

I believe that the "progressive" messengers in "progressive" churches are sending the wrong message. The "Easter Sunday" celebration at Madison and other "progressive" congregations of the church of Christ is so programmed, in the first place, designed for a TV production. "God's [semi-professional] elite singers" are ON STAGE to perform during this [pagan-originated-in-the-name-of-religion] Easter celebration. And that's supposed to be concerning the "resurrection" of Christ.

The placement of "the Lord's Supper" [to remember the Lord's death] in the midst this Happy Easter "celebration" is not necessarily what the New Testament instructs the church to do.

Here's the dilemma that the church should be concerned about. We observe the Lord's suffering and death on the cross on the first day of the week -- this is scriptural. But shouldn't the Happy Easter proponents be willing to prepare to skillfully program EVERY FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK the Easter celebration with the Lord's Supper as part of it?[/color]
Paul equated speaking in tongues to using the "tongues" of musical instruments. He equated this to speaking the languages of "angels" which as false messengers speaks of sorcerers. Even if this was a true thing you would be as worthless as sounding brass or tinkling cymbals. The problem with tongues or instruments or "virtual musical bands" or "worship teams" is that anyone who would expose themselves as a mediator can easily be cursing God such as wanting to sit on God's lap and Dare To Dance.

Singing other than the text is likely to teach false doctrine which despises the Holy Spirit OF Christ and this is called blasphemy.

The problem is that USURPING elders and elderesses both sow discord which is the PREFERED way to dissociate the minds of the frogs so that it becomes easer to inject filth because it vibrates all of the pleasure centers. A church devoted to discipleship would be spending its time trying to dig into the Word printed in english but best understood by seeing how the words were used in the ancient text. Even a simple simon would know that PSALLO never has any musical content: it you SMITE a harp string it produces a sound but this has no musical content unless you define a melody.

If the musicators are not cursing Jesus by violating direct commands they very well may mock Him by having females perform in a style called SORCERY. Witches don't ride brooms: they might be riding a hand-held microphone.



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 5th, 2013, 7:08 pm #18

The best way to get people to mock you is to suggest that the whole record of history proves that lots of churches are in a psychological meltdown. It begins with the once-Christian colleges collecting all of the people who can make a noise selling silly theology to sillier theologians. Because they have effectively cut the limb upon which they rested they find themselves trying to sell their own STRONG DELUSIONS which God smacked them with when they began to FEED themselves from what they told everyone was a lie.

"Jingling, banging, and rattling accompanied heathen cults, and the frenzying shawms of a dozen ecstatic cries intoxicated the masses. Amid this euphoric farewell feast of a dying civilization, the voices of nonconformists were emerging from places of Jewish and early Christian worship ..." (Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s.v. "Music")

God abandoned Israel to the FOLLOWING patternism and the MUSIC was to lead them into captivity and death:

"Based on the concept of an organic pattern in the life course of civilization, a morphology of history: the idea that every culture has its period of youth, its period of culmination, its years then of beginning to totter with age and of striving to hold itself together by means of rational planning, projects, and organization, only finally to terminate in decrepitude, petrification... and no more life. Moreover, in this view of Spengler's, we were at present on the point of passing from what he called the period of Culture to Civilization, which is to say, from our periods of youthful, spontaneous, and wonderful creativity to those of

<font color="#FF0000">uncertainty and anxiety, contrived programs, and the beginning of the end." (Campbell, Joseph, Myths to Live By, p. 84)


"Yet there is a great religious fervor and ferment evident among not only young people but old and middle-aged as well. The fervor, however, is in a mystical direction, and the teachers who seem to be saying most to many are those who have come to us

from a world that was formerly regarded as having left altogether behind in the great press forward of modern civilization,

representing only archaic, out-lived manners of thinking. We have gurus galore..."

"Within the span of a decade the religion had become archaic; and it was then that the peyote cult, the mescal cult, came pouring in from Mexico (Aztec land), onto and across the plains, as a psychological rescue... they would gather in special lodges to pray, to chant, and to eat peyote buttons, each then experiencing visions, finding within themselves what had been lost from their society." (Joseph Campbell, p. 89)

"Now the first and most important effect of a living mythological symbol is to waken and give guidance to the energies of life. It is an energy-releasing and directing sign, which not only 'turns you on,' as they say today,

but turns you on in a certain direction,
making you function a certain way--which
will be one conducive to your participation in the life and purposes
of a functioning social group." (Campbell, p. 89).

"when the symbols provided by the social group no longer work, and the symbols that do work are no longer of the group, the individual cracks away, becomes disassociated and disoriented, and we are confronted with what can only be named a pathology of the symbol." (Campbell, p. 89).


That translates-I think-a religious society (at least) which is suffering from the PREPLANNED purpose to induce a mild form of schizophrenia so that THEY could sell you a CURE.


So, don't blame me: I take my meds and you pay for them.</font>
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AM
AM

April 7th, 2013, 12:46 pm #19

You're an idiot.


======================
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"I approved this message."[/color]
And you a Graduate one of our Christian Universities, I guess we can see what is worse. An Idiot looks pretty good.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 15th, 2013, 1:42 am #20

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]For a number of years after the church upheaval in 2001, it was either an "Easter drama worship" or an "interactive Easter worship." (I think the drama has run out of dramatic themes or scenes to portray the resurrection of Christ every year.)

In 2013, it was something else -- at the moment I have no word or words to describe all the events that occurred at the Madison "worship center." No, it wasn't about the children and the Easter bunny or Easter rabbit or the Easter eggs. Rather, adults were involved in the Easter flowering of several crosses in the auditorium -- and this was done during the Lord's Supper while the shepherds' [employed] "Worship Leader" and his co-worship leading team of two men and two WOMEN were on stage performing.

[I'm offering the opportunity for Scripture or anyone who's willing to describe in more detail what took place today at "the worship center." Perhaps, Scripture can document for us what took place from the start of the Communion when the quartet went on stage to deliver the rehearsed, programmed worship, the "poem/narrative" reading, etc.?]

There's so much confusion surrounding the "Easter" observance. At least from the standpoint of what the Bible teaches about the suffering and death of Christ about which we commemorate "in remembrance of me." The New Testament refers to: "this is my body" and "this cup is the new testament in my blood." That's about the Lord's Supper. That is not about the resurrection.

I believe that the "progressive" messengers in "progressive" churches are sending the wrong message. The "Easter Sunday" celebration at Madison and other "progressive" congregations of the church of Christ is so programmed, in the first place, designed for a TV production. "God's [semi-professional] elite singers" are ON STAGE to perform during this [pagan-originated-in-the-name-of-religion] Easter celebration. And that's supposed to be concerning the "resurrection" of Christ.

The placement of "the Lord's Supper" [to remember the Lord's death] in the midst this Happy Easter "celebration" is not necessarily what the New Testament instructs the church to do.

Here's the dilemma that the church should be concerned about. We observe the Lord's suffering and death on the cross on the first day of the week -- this is scriptural. But shouldn't the Happy Easter proponents be willing to prepare to skillfully program EVERY FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK the Easter celebration with the Lord's Supper as part of it?[/color]
In Exodus 32 when Israel ROSE UP that means that they ROSE UP against God. Aaron had led them into rising up against God. We have noted that Jacob cursed the tribe of Levi and asked people NOT to covenant with Levi or attend any of their assemblies.

God had not commanded a priestly class until the musical worship of the Egyptian (etal) trinity at Mount Sinai. While the priestly class at Madison using the Levites as their PATTERNIST claim that God commanded "worship with singing and instrumental accompaniment." God intends that their nakedness be exposed and they become a laughingstock. Because God sends them strong delusions they THINK that what Paul warns about as ORGE or ORGY really turns God ON and they cannot read the Word anymore. In Revelation the LOCUSTS are muses are sent to take them captive and separate them out and hold them for the Lake of Fire.

You cannot be a little bit pregnant and therefore you cannot tippy-toe into exposing your spiritual and mental nakedness. Here is what I believe that God WILL NOT PERMIT to be read among those who intend to make ministry into a PROFESSION. I know of no exceptions among either "conservative" or "liberal."



<font face="arial" size="4">Contrary to the instrumentalists delusion that God commanded the Levites (and them) to lead the worship services, God ordained the Jacob-cursed priesthood especially the Levites to EXECUTE any godly person commanded to attend synagogue (school) who came inside the gates or near any of the sacrificial system.

Strong delusions are wonderful addictive sleeping pills. However, they are a powerful way of escape provided by God for those OF FAITH or OF TRUTH.
</font>
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