Grace and Works: New Thread Per The Request Of Brother Cruz

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 8th, 2011, 6:30 pm #11

Donnie, you are the epitamy, (for you William), of why the church of Christ has a bad name. You had to put in your last response that you assumed those from the baptist denomination would say that. Why not make it an assumed response from anyone? We actually have members from the church of Christ that falsely believe what you are speaking of.
Baptists believe they are "saved" the moment they ask Jesus to "come into their hearts as their personal Savior." They also believe that baptism is merely an "outer sign of an inner belief"; that is, baptism is required neither for forgiveness of sins nor for salvation. Therefore, it is accurate to say that one way of stating the Baptist belief is: "Those who believe but are not baptized will not be damned."

A person who deliberately types "epitamy" instead of "epitome" only wants to sow discord.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 8th, 2011, 7:06 pm #12

Donnie, you are the epitamy, (for you William), of why the church of Christ has a bad name. You had to put in your last response that you assumed those from the baptist denomination would say that. Why not make it an assumed response from anyone? We actually have members from the church of Christ that falsely believe what you are speaking of.
Dave wrote: "We actually have members from the church of Christ [who] falsely believe what you are speaking of."

If members of the Church of Christ actually believe the examples of false doctrines that Donnie presented, then they are not true members of the Church. They believe like Baptists and the other denominations that Christ never founded.

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Dave
Dave

August 9th, 2011, 3:15 am #13

Quoted from another thread:

[To Sonny:] With regards to your posts, you have presented a number of thought-provoking comments. However, I know that your aforementioned conclusion that salvation by works is a "legalistic and false doctrine" is a lesson you have learned from the change agents who, in turn, acquired it from the denominations. There is really no contradiction among these elements in the Bible: God's grace and mercy and love, man's faith, man's good works. But this is a great topic to discuss. Why not initiate a thread dealing with God's grace and man's faith and works? [Donnie Cruz]
---------------------------------

I believe that one matter of confusion in the Christian world is over the topic of grace. While grace is opposed to earning; it is not opposed to effort. There are Scriptures that exhort Christians to "make every effort" (or "be diligent") concerning holy and godly living (ex. Heb. 12:14 ; 2 Pet. 1:5 ; 3:14). Christians are to work and make effort and live a life of good works. The matter of confusion is on whether these are what save us. They do not. They are a "result" of salvation, not the "means."

Christians are saved by grace; by Jesus. Salvation is a "gift" that cannot be earned (Rom. 5:15-17 mentions "gift" 5 times). We obtain this justification (right standing) before God through faith in Christ (Rom. 1:16 ; 5:1 ; Eph. 2:8-9, etc.) We are 1000% saved by Jesus. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus "completely saves" (NKJV "saves to the uttermost"). All our righteousness is but filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). It is only in Christ that we are "perfect" (Col. 1:28). Christ is our "righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30).

The result of being/living in Christ? We are to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4). We are to walk worthy of the calling (Eph. 4:1). We are His workmanship created to do good works (Eph. 2:10). This, indeed, requires our effort and the aid of God's Spirit. The fruit "of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-23) is an example of our need for help bearing this fruit.

Brother Cruz, while there are many other Scriptures and thoughts that can be included, I hope this is enough to initiate a "respectful" and "substantive" dialogue on the Scriptures and the topic of salvation and both grace and works.

-Sonny

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]===========================

NOTE: The topic (but not its contents) has been changed to include "Grace and Works" -- one major issue concerning salvation. Our thanks to Sonny.[/color]
MY POINT, William, which is beyond your ability to comprehend, is that singling out the baptists is wrong. The underlying rip current and problem here is to assert this false teaching to the baptists, when (as William admitted) we see that even those that claim to be members of the church of Christ actually teach falsely also.

Wrong is wrong! Always!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 9th, 2011, 5:59 am #14

Dave, have you ever discussed [civilly, I hope] with any of your Baptist friends about baptism and its purpose or design? I know there are always "individual differences" wherever and whenever, but the consensus among Baptists is that the moment one accepts Christ as "my personal Savior," he is saved instantaneously. (Other related beliefs are "once saved, always saved" or "one never falls from grace.")

I know, I know that you've heard of that form of teaching before. Would you be surprised to see an SOF such as this one?
                First Baptist Church

11 Young Adults Saved This Sunday A.M.
5 Will Be Baptized This P.M.
Baptismal Services Also Next Sunday P.M.
You may have a point, though, Dave. I probably should have indicated (instead of "BAPTIST") the following: "CHANGE AGENTS with Baptist Doctrine Proclivities."
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 9th, 2011, 12:53 pm #15

MY POINT, William, which is beyond your ability to comprehend, is that singling out the baptists is wrong. The underlying rip current and problem here is to assert this false teaching to the baptists, when (as William admitted) we see that even those that claim to be members of the church of Christ actually teach falsely also.

Wrong is wrong! Always!
Dave would not single out anyone. He would settle for the status quo. Live and let live, right, Dave?
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Dave
Dave

August 9th, 2011, 7:32 pm #16

Quoted from another thread:

[To Sonny:] With regards to your posts, you have presented a number of thought-provoking comments. However, I know that your aforementioned conclusion that salvation by works is a "legalistic and false doctrine" is a lesson you have learned from the change agents who, in turn, acquired it from the denominations. There is really no contradiction among these elements in the Bible: God's grace and mercy and love, man's faith, man's good works. But this is a great topic to discuss. Why not initiate a thread dealing with God's grace and man's faith and works? [Donnie Cruz]
---------------------------------

I believe that one matter of confusion in the Christian world is over the topic of grace. While grace is opposed to earning; it is not opposed to effort. There are Scriptures that exhort Christians to "make every effort" (or "be diligent") concerning holy and godly living (ex. Heb. 12:14 ; 2 Pet. 1:5 ; 3:14). Christians are to work and make effort and live a life of good works. The matter of confusion is on whether these are what save us. They do not. They are a "result" of salvation, not the "means."

Christians are saved by grace; by Jesus. Salvation is a "gift" that cannot be earned (Rom. 5:15-17 mentions "gift" 5 times). We obtain this justification (right standing) before God through faith in Christ (Rom. 1:16 ; 5:1 ; Eph. 2:8-9, etc.) We are 1000% saved by Jesus. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus "completely saves" (NKJV "saves to the uttermost"). All our righteousness is but filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). It is only in Christ that we are "perfect" (Col. 1:28). Christ is our "righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30).

The result of being/living in Christ? We are to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4). We are to walk worthy of the calling (Eph. 4:1). We are His workmanship created to do good works (Eph. 2:10). This, indeed, requires our effort and the aid of God's Spirit. The fruit "of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-23) is an example of our need for help bearing this fruit.

Brother Cruz, while there are many other Scriptures and thoughts that can be included, I hope this is enough to initiate a "respectful" and "substantive" dialogue on the Scriptures and the topic of salvation and both grace and works.

-Sonny

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]===========================

NOTE: The topic (but not its contents) has been changed to include "Grace and Works" -- one major issue concerning salvation. Our thanks to Sonny.[/color]
I don't have to tell them William. You have always done a bang up job with restating what someone else has said. It may never be anywhere close to what the original message is (some may even call it a lie).....but no skin of your nose, right?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

August 9th, 2011, 10:52 pm #17

MY POINT, William, which is beyond your ability to comprehend, is that singling out the baptists is wrong. The underlying rip current and problem here is to assert this false teaching to the baptists, when (as William admitted) we see that even those that claim to be members of the church of Christ actually teach falsely also.

Wrong is wrong! Always!
I'm always amused whenever Dave gets into one of his little "omnipotent" spells of self righteousness. Picture a little kid jumping up and down, stamping his feet, and hollering, "Wrong is wrong! Always!" Dave's little spells always provide a chuckle or two.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 11th, 2011, 7:49 am #18

Quoted from another thread:

[To Sonny:] With regards to your posts, you have presented a number of thought-provoking comments. However, I know that your aforementioned conclusion that salvation by works is a "legalistic and false doctrine" is a lesson you have learned from the change agents who, in turn, acquired it from the denominations. There is really no contradiction among these elements in the Bible: God's grace and mercy and love, man's faith, man's good works. But this is a great topic to discuss. Why not initiate a thread dealing with God's grace and man's faith and works? [Donnie Cruz]
---------------------------------

I believe that one matter of confusion in the Christian world is over the topic of grace. While grace is opposed to earning; it is not opposed to effort. There are Scriptures that exhort Christians to "make every effort" (or "be diligent") concerning holy and godly living (ex. Heb. 12:14 ; 2 Pet. 1:5 ; 3:14). Christians are to work and make effort and live a life of good works. The matter of confusion is on whether these are what save us. They do not. They are a "result" of salvation, not the "means."

Christians are saved by grace; by Jesus. Salvation is a "gift" that cannot be earned (Rom. 5:15-17 mentions "gift" 5 times). We obtain this justification (right standing) before God through faith in Christ (Rom. 1:16 ; 5:1 ; Eph. 2:8-9, etc.) We are 1000% saved by Jesus. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus "completely saves" (NKJV "saves to the uttermost"). All our righteousness is but filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). It is only in Christ that we are "perfect" (Col. 1:28). Christ is our "righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30).

The result of being/living in Christ? We are to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4). We are to walk worthy of the calling (Eph. 4:1). We are His workmanship created to do good works (Eph. 2:10). This, indeed, requires our effort and the aid of God's Spirit. The fruit "of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-23) is an example of our need for help bearing this fruit.

Brother Cruz, while there are many other Scriptures and thoughts that can be included, I hope this is enough to initiate a "respectful" and "substantive" dialogue on the Scriptures and the topic of salvation and both grace and works.

-Sonny

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]===========================

NOTE: The topic (but not its contents) has been changed to include "Grace and Works" -- one major issue concerning salvation. Our thanks to Sonny.[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The subject of "grace" is referenced 39 times in the Old Testament, 130 times in the New Testament. "Mercy" is referenced 372 times in the Bible.

Grace is a major component in man's redemption. But it is God's part and His alone; man does not tamper with God's grace--downgrade it, upgrade it, misuse or abuse it.

Change agents in the brotherhood with foremost in their agenda to downgrade the church to being just like the "other" [denomi]nations, accuse this body of believers of being unemphatic concerning grace. The truth is that we're way past that stage of just now recognizing the truth that man's redemption would be impossible without God's grace and the cleansing blood of the Lamb. Another is that there is no controversy in dealing with God's grace when we speak of the necessity of one being baptized in order to have his sins remitted. There is also no controversy in being under God's grace while Christians endeavor to be obedient (doing good works or works of righteousness) and to remain faithful to the end.

(I'm in the process of creating an HTML table that would simplify our understanding of God's grace--which is so dependent on how we rightly divide the word of truth. How does grace impact man's conversion (initial salvation) in order to become God's child? And how does the Christian cope with living the life of righteousness, obedience and faithfulness while still under God's grace. "Shall we continue in sin that GRACE may abound (Rom. 6:1)? I think not. [I cannot promise when it will be completed.})

Anyway, here's our assignment. How do we deal with seemingly "controversial" passages regarding grace? [But they're not controversial.][/color]
  • Rom. 4:[4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

    </li>
  • Rom. 11:[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Caution: It would be easy to take the passages out of context without properly understanding the following terminologies and expressions: works, good works, works of righteousness, works of the law, the law of Moses, under the law, under grace.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 11th, 2011, 5:47 pm #19

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 13th, 2011, 10:08 am #20

Quoted from another thread:

[To Sonny:] With regards to your posts, you have presented a number of thought-provoking comments. However, I know that your aforementioned conclusion that salvation by works is a "legalistic and false doctrine" is a lesson you have learned from the change agents who, in turn, acquired it from the denominations. There is really no contradiction among these elements in the Bible: God's grace and mercy and love, man's faith, man's good works. But this is a great topic to discuss. Why not initiate a thread dealing with God's grace and man's faith and works? [Donnie Cruz]
---------------------------------

I believe that one matter of confusion in the Christian world is over the topic of grace. While grace is opposed to earning; it is not opposed to effort. There are Scriptures that exhort Christians to "make every effort" (or "be diligent") concerning holy and godly living (ex. Heb. 12:14 ; 2 Pet. 1:5 ; 3:14). Christians are to work and make effort and live a life of good works. The matter of confusion is on whether these are what save us. They do not. They are a "result" of salvation, not the "means."

Christians are saved by grace; by Jesus. Salvation is a "gift" that cannot be earned (Rom. 5:15-17 mentions "gift" 5 times). We obtain this justification (right standing) before God through faith in Christ (Rom. 1:16 ; 5:1 ; Eph. 2:8-9, etc.) We are 1000% saved by Jesus. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus "completely saves" (NKJV "saves to the uttermost"). All our righteousness is but filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). It is only in Christ that we are "perfect" (Col. 1:28). Christ is our "righteousness" (1 Cor. 1:30).

The result of being/living in Christ? We are to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4). We are to walk worthy of the calling (Eph. 4:1). We are His workmanship created to do good works (Eph. 2:10). This, indeed, requires our effort and the aid of God's Spirit. The fruit "of the Spirit" (Gal. 5:22-23) is an example of our need for help bearing this fruit.

Brother Cruz, while there are many other Scriptures and thoughts that can be included, I hope this is enough to initiate a "respectful" and "substantive" dialogue on the Scriptures and the topic of salvation and both grace and works.

-Sonny

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]===========================

NOTE: The topic (but not its contents) has been changed to include "Grace and Works" -- one major issue concerning salvation. Our thanks to Sonny.[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="]Here is another Bible study challenge: Ephesians 2:8,9 VERSUS Ephesians 2:10. Oddly, all the verses are from the same book (Ephesians) and chapter (2)[/color]

Ephesians 2:8,9 [emphases mine, dc]
  • For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph. 2:8, KJV)

    </li>
  • For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (Eph. 2:8, ESV)

    </li>
  • For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8, NASB)

    </li>
  • For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8, Intl Std V)

    </li>
  • God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God. (Eph. 2:8, GOD'S WORD® Transl)

    </li>
  • For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- (Eph. 2:8, NIV)

    </li>
  • for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; (Eph. 2:8, ASV)

    </li>
  • Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:9, KJV)</li>
VERSUS
Ephesians 2:10
  • For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="]Matters to consider in contrasting the context in both passages:[/color]
  • Clue: cf. the post above "Grace Is God's Part: Are Works Active or a 'Result'?" (August 2 2011, 12:06 AM).
    </li>
  • The significance of quoting Ephesians 2:8 from various translations:
    </li>
  • "Saved" expressed in present tense ("are ye saved");
    </li>
  • "Saved" expressed in past tense ("saved you");
    </li>
  • "Saved" expressed in perfect tense ("have ye been saved"; "you have been saved").
    </li>
  • The more accurate translation is: "were ye saved" or "saved you" or "you have been saved" ... indicating the conversion (initial or past salvation) of one from being outside of Christ to being in Christ.
    </li>
  • "NOT OF WORKS" is mentioned in verse 9; however,...
    </li>
  • "WE ARE are his WORKMANSHIP created ... UNTO GOOD WORKS" is stated in verse 10.
    </li>
  • Why is that contrast?
    </li>
  • NOTE the following:
    </li>
  • CONVERSION (past salvation) indicates being a process in redemption that does not account for man's GOOD WORKS -- none whatsoever. The ultimate step in the conversion process is the burial and resurrection with the Redeemer in baptism. The benefit is the remission of sins in His blood, as well as the reception of the gift of refreshing, a clear conscience, a holy and pure mind/spirit. Ephesians 2:8,9.
    </li>
  • PRESENT SALVATION: We have been (were) converted to Christ and we are now in Christ (Christians). Christians are to do GOOD WORKS or WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS--this is a command--as faith without works is DEAD (Ephesians 2:10; James 2)
    </li>
  • Sinners were SAVED by GRACE through faith without works (past salvation).
    </li>
  • Christians are still UNDER GRACE (Romans 6:1,14,15) and confess sins and be forgiven; but Christians do not live by faith only, but must be obedient and productive by doing good works also.
    </li>
  • There is no conflict between Eph. 2:8,9 (not of works) and Ephesians 2:10 (of works of righteousness).
    </li>
  • Therefore, there is no conflict between GRACE and WORKS.</li>
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