Joined: March 9th, 2002, 4:18 pm

February 13th, 2006, 10:28 pm #81

Brother Rhoades,

In your post you state:
"Follow the memberships!" and then go on to say (and I've included the whole paragraph for a reason),

"Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members. The Willocreeks, The Saddlebacks, The Promise Keepers, the Catholic Church, and the Christian Church, The Methodists, Billy Graham and on and on. There are many smaller unknown organizations as well."

Later you point out 21st Century Christian puts their name on materials written by the Christian Church.

Since I want to believe you have the best of intentions I'd simply like to point out your statements that I've quoted or mentioned above contain a number of errors. If one goes to the site for the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches links to the "member churches" are readily available.

World Council of Churches:
National Council of Churches:

A quick review of these sites reveals this about members and non-members.

Members of the National Council of Churches: Methodist (four types) and the Christian Church (Disciples)

NOT members of the National Council of Churches: Willowcreek, Saddleback (SBC), Catholic Church, and Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent).

Of the churches you listed, only two are actually members. A great batting average but here it is misleading.

Members of the World Council of Churches (North America) reveals the same.

Simply as a matter of accuracy it would better not to speak of a church or a group of churches holding membership in an organization where they do not have such membership.

Also, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (Independent) have little more in common than the Disciples and the Churches of Christ (non-instrumental). To leave the impression the Disciples and the Independents are the same is, at the very least, a gross misunderstanding of their relationship.
You state above;
"NOT members of the National Council of Churches: Willowcreek, Saddleback (SBC), Catholic Church, and Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent)."

You are assuming that the Catholic Church is not a member, but yet on WCC web site, this is what is stated;

"- The Roman Catholic Church is a full member of many national ecumenical and several regional ecumenical organizations and has a regular working relationship with the WCC."

These memberships and "working relationships" are all a twisting of words.

Maybe I should have said all of these groups have "connections", "memberships", or "working relationships"

Your failure to grasp the impotance of what is happening here,
and your uninformed debunking sets others up worse than my lack of detail.

Joe Spivy
Joe Spivy

February 14th, 2006, 4:26 am #82

Without conceding your contention that the Roman Catholic Church is a part of the World Council of Churches because the WCC claims on its site it has a "working relationship" (or connection, or whatever)...

OK, now demonstrate how Willowcreek, Saddleback and (especially) the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent Christian Churches) are associated with the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches.

Do you know the difference between Mainline, Evangelical and Fundamentalist Churches? How about those that are normally described as Conservative and Liberal?

Are you aware there is a difference between the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ (who have membership in these organizations) and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (who do not and would not have membership in the WCC or NCC)?

Are you aware most Mainline churches (headquarters and individual congregations), who make up the World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches, have little or nothing to do with the Willowcreek Association, Saddleback, etc.? That they pretty uninformly dislike them?

“Your uninformed debunking sets other [sic] up worse than my lack of detail.”

Reminds me of a friend who once pointed out to a speaker, he agreed with his premise but was troubled by his example which was untrue (the gentlemen made specific charges against the family of a man, whom they both considered a heretic, which were demonstrably false). He feared when people became aware of these “details” they might doubt the veracity of his other statements and the conclusions he had drawn.

The gentlemen’s response? Something along the lines of, Don’t bother me with the details, we must defend the truth!

Sir, if truth is unimportant then why defend it? If truth is supported by "untruth" is it really truth? Some of your statements, and the many of the charges made in the editorial you reference, are demonstrably false and misinformed.

For example, Do you even know what the term "church growth movement" refers to? If you say, "marketing the church" or "contemporary worship" then it simply demonstrates you have an uninformed understanding of the term. The fact some people use it in this way doesn't "prove" any more than their lack of understanding. And if you say, "but that's how most people understand the term" then I'll ask you how most people in the world understand "baptism" and then ask you to compare it to what the Bible reveals in the New Testament. Does the majority understanding make it right?

Brother, this whole site points out we can’t keep churches from splitting on a regular basis but you believe some “Big” minions are pushing us toward one “world” church (forging together all those churches on the earth who call themselves Christian). What an interesting contradiction: "division is bad" and "unity is evil."

David Rhoades
David Rhoades

February 14th, 2006, 8:12 pm #83


If you are not willing to concede that you were wrong concerning the Catholic Church in the above post, then we certainly won't waste our time trying to prove the other connections.

So which is it Joe? Does the Catholic church have some connection, membership, or "working relationship" with the World Council of Churches?

Lets get this straight before we move futher into the "Fruity Loop"

Joe Spivy
Joe Spivy

February 15th, 2006, 5:21 am #84


If I were mistaken about the membership of the Roman Catholic Church in the World Council of Churches I would concede it. I am not mistaken.

I will concede the World Council of Churches, in speaking of the "ecumenical movement’s major achievements over the past fifty years," states:
- The Roman Catholic Church is a full member of many national ecumenical and several regional ecumenical organizations and has a regular working relationship with the WCC.

Viewing the entire page ( allows the viewer to see this in the context of the WCC’s attempt to claim continued relevance and leadership in the “ecumenical” movement (I am neither a fan nor a supporter).

For the World Council of Churches to claim a "working relationship" is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church (not a sympathizer or apologist for the RCC either) placing "membership" with them. The WCC would love this but the RCC has never made this move. Read the Vatican's "Dominus Iesus" and the reaction of the "member" churches of the World Council of Churches and you'll understand why the RCC has little motivation to join the WCC.

If your "proof" for the membership of the others mentioned is based on the same type of “proof” as that for the RCC’s membership, then it would in fact be a waste of time. An instructor in Church History at Freed-Hardeman use to caution students concerning the claims of the Roman Catholic Church, "Saying it doesn't make it so."

Words have meaning. If they are as fluid as you suggest then truth is indiscernible. You claimed “Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members.” Therefore you, not I, have the responsibility to prove “working relationship” = “membership.”

David Rhoades
David Rhoades

February 15th, 2006, 3:42 pm #85


Like I have previously stated; "My original post should have said all of these organizations are connected in one way or the other, to achieve their ecumenical goals"

To save time I used the word "membership" which may not have been the best terminology.

As an example the United Nations has memberships. If I said that both the United States and the National Rifle association were members of the United Nations, I would be technically wrong or technically correct, depending on how you looked at it.

Technically, the United Nations only has memberships for countries, however they do have what they call NGO (Non Governmental Organizations) that can be members (a different kind of members)as well.

Those that have studied the organizational charts of these various groups realize that there is not a clear organizational structure, even though they are all connected.

It's mean't to be obscure.

If you can't agree that the Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches are together in their ecumenical goals in some sort of relationship, then we can't take this any futher.

By the way I never said The Church of Christ was a member of the WCC. All I was eluding to was that some Sunday School materials were coming from another church body that were members of the WCC, UNknowlingly by the Church of Christ.



Joe Spivy
Joe Spivy

February 15th, 2006, 5:32 pm #86


To say the WCC and RCC have some similar goals in terms of ecumenism, though the means of acheiving it come from such vastly different perspective it is doubtful they will ever agree, OK, that I'll concede.

Though it may be best we not go much farther I should explain: I never thought you were implying that churches of Christ were a part of the WCC or sympathetic to the organization or its means of achieving "unity"

The confusion between "Christian Church (Disciples/Disciples of Christ)" and "Christian Church" is understandable. Just look at the names--it is easy to miss the "chalice" symbol or the word Disciples which is often to the side or underneath.

Just for the record, the materials sold by 21st Century Christian (in which I have no vested interested and which we don't use) are from the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (aka Independent Christian Church). They, like Churches of Christ, have a common history with the Christian Church/Disciples. It simply took them longer to recognize the liberal theological base of the Disciples and so it took them longer to recognize they could not enjoy fellowship with them (or even be considered a part of them).

The independents have no denominational structure, no headquarters, no governing body, etc. Each congregation is autonomous. Thus, the Christian Church referenced with a relationship with a Church of Christ publishing house is not the Christian Church whose membership is in the WCC.


April 25th, 2006, 10:03 pm #87

Why did you STOP and NOT quote THE meaning of the Covenant of Grace given by the promise of the Spirit of Christ in order to be a true ISRAELITE and NOT a Jews under the Law of Moses as a curse?
  • <font color=red>Gal 3:26 FOR ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Gal 3:27 FOR as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise. </font>
Abraham lived under a COVENANT OF GRACE: he was justified by faith because he obeyed God's laws and commands.
  • God brought Israel out of Egypt and gave them a restatement of that called The Book of the Covenant.

    The people repudiated Grace by rising up to PLAY in musical worship of the trinity. The Law of Moses to legislate for the lawless was BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY.

    God saw this as their PRAYER to return to paganism. Therefore, Stephen and many others say that God TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOSTS.

    The Book of the Covenant was revoked, the tablets broken and restated to fit the Jew's new PAGANISM.

    The SABBATH never meant A DAY OF WORSHIP: both some FIRST DAYS and later all "one out of seven" days was to hold a Holy Convocation. That meant to REST and READ or REHEARSE the Word which any APT elder could do from memory.

    This was to QUARANTINE the Isralites FROM the SABBATH day "worship" which was BABYLONIAN as was the TITHE. The Babylonian worship was--like modern churchianity--where the people SERVED the gods by serving the AGENTS of the "gods" with food, drink, singing, dancing and sexual and homosexual pleasures.

    The SABBATH meant REST just as Jesus died to give us REST from the burdens laded on by the self-serving clergy. REST in the literature means: "Stop the singing, stop the instruments, stop the rhetoric and just REST." SABBATH outlaws "sending out ministers" and "speaking your own words."
Ezek 20:6 In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them,
  • to bring them forth of the land of Egypt
    into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey,
    which is the glory of all lands:
Ezek 20:7 Then said I unto them,
  • Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes,
    and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt:
    I am the Lord your God.
  • <font color=blue>Shiqquwc (h8251) shik-koots'; or shiqquc shik-koots'; from 8262; disgusting, i. e. filthy; espec. idolatrous or (concr.) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing)</font>
Ezek 20:8 But they rebelled against me,
  • and would not hearken unto me:
    they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes,
    neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said,
    I will pour out my fury upon them,
    to accomplish my anger against them
    in the midst of the land of Egypt.
Ezek 20:9 But I wrought for my names sake,
  • that it should not be polluted before the heathen,
    among whom they were, in whose sight
    I made myself known unto them,
    in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
Ezek 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt,
  • and brought them into the wilderness.
<font color=red>God gave the ten words and the oral version of The Book of The Covenant. </font>

This directly connects the promise made to Abraham and Jesus as the SEED. We become HEIRS of the promise by being baptized into Christ.
Ezek 20:11 And I gave them my statutes,
  • and shewed them my judgments,
    which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths,
  • to be a sign between me and them,
    that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
Ezek 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:
  • they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments,
    which if a man do, he shall even live in them;
    and my sabbaths they greatly polluted:
    then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Ezek 20:14 But I wrought for my names sake,
  • that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.
<font color=red>The righteous decision would be to leave Israel in the wilderness. Again, god had to protect His people to protect His Name: </font>

Ezek 20:15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness,
  • that I would NOT bring them into the land which I had given them,
    flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;
Ezek 20:16 Because they despised my judgments,
  • and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths:
    for their heart went after their idols.
The word POLLUTED is the same word defining how Lucifer was CAST OUT of heaven and how Jesus CAST OUT the musical ministrels--like one ejects dung:
  • <font color=blue>Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute) - defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

    "The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

    "In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the MUSICAL form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).</font>
Ezek 20:17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them,
  • neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness.
Ezek 20:18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness,
  • Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers,
    either observe their judgments,
    nor defile yourselves with their idols:
Ezek 20:19 I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;

Ezek 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they
  • shall be a SIGN between me and you [ISRAELITES], that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.
Ezek 20:21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me:
  • they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them,
    which if a man do, he shall even live in them;
    they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them,
    to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Ezek 20:22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand,
  • and wrought for my names sake,
    that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen,
    in whose sight I brought them forth.

    <font color=red>The idolatrous worship of Apis at Mount Sinai sentenced Israel to captivity and almost total destruction -- then and there -- because they would always be unfaithful to God. Therefore, He gave them a law which could not give life (as the Covenant could have) and helped them on their way to destruction when they "fired" Him and demanded a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations: </font>
Ezek 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness,
  • that I would scatter them among the heathen,
    and disperse them through the countries;
Ezek 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments,
  • but had despised my statutes,
    and had polluted my sabbaths,
    and their eyes were after their fathers idols.
Ezek 20:25 Wherefore
  • I gave them also statutes that were not good,
    and judgments whereby they should not live;
Ezek 20:26 And I polluted them in their own gifts,
  • in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb,
    that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

    <font color=blue>Ac.7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? </font>
Stephen alludes to the writings of Amos which ILLUSTRATES the musical, idolatrous worship of the nation of Israel including the APIS bulls. When you REJECT God's Word He sends you strong delusions.

Again: the Sabbath was for REST. That QUARANTINED them from being able to travel to the CANAANITE or BABYLON "Sabbath Day Worship" rituals which--like most of Christianism--is for entertainment at a HIGH PRICE. The only WORSHIP word which they performed and used by Paul for the EKKLESIA or "school of the Bible" was to GIVE HEED to "that which is written" or "Scripture." That is the SAME restriction as the Holy Convocation.

At the time of Christ the THREAT was SUN worship in which all "musical worship" speaks of pleasuring, sexuality, homosexuality and TAKING AWAY MONEY. Therefore, as the FIRST day was the BEGINNING of creation and the EIGHTH DAY was the beginning again of activity, the Lord's Day was to QUARANTINE Christians FROM religious worship rituals. Jesus still DID NOT call it a DAY OF WORSHIP but a DAY OF REST. Clergy makes it certain that SUNDAY is the most ANXIETY CREATING, wearing day of the weak. It is OK to remember the Sabbath and keep it HOLY but it is NOT ok and was NEVER ok to make it a DAY OF WORSHIP where the CLERGY gets PAID for LADING BURDENS.

Wow. I don't usually follow these kinds of online blogs. They lead exactly nowhere. They are an end unto themselves and have very little if any redeeming value or even collateral spirituality. This one is no different. I'm going to have my one say and then I won't post again. All of this smacks of prideful, vain self-promotion. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are writing daily "books" of information that has no hope of saving a single lost soul or encouraging a single hurting heart. If you spent have the energy on the "weightier" matters, heaven would be singing joyfully over the lost souls that have been redeemed. You sound like a bunch of Pharisees trying to see who has the biggest and best refence Bible. Paul understood what was really important and told the church at Colasse as much as a preface to combatting heresy in that church:

I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (Col. 2:1-4)

There are a lot of "fine sounding arguments" here that emphasise style over substance and form over function. Please, gentlemen, I pray that you can get over yourselves and get back to the real work of the church - Seeking and saving the lost; not an endless search for the truth. God has already cornered the market on that one.

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

April 26th, 2006, 2:43 am #88

This is not a BLOG which is reserved for disfunctional women and underemployed males. This is a Viper Defense Forum.

Good! pull the pigtail and run, hey? The seven SPIRITS which would rest on Messiah or the Branch were ALL forms of Divine knowledge. (see Isaiah 11:1f for the first time). These are prefigured by the LAMPS of the Menorah in the Holy Place. This is the type of the church of Christ which has the SOLE TASK of making the wisdom of God known to mankind and to supernatural beings. This is to prove that the WORD of God can defeat the rituals of Satan which appeal to the FLESH.
  • <font color=blue>Col 2:1 FOR I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

    Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. </font>
Both Paul and Peter warn us to speak that which has been delivered to us because it was delivered by eye and ear witnesses and given the supernatural memory to write us a MEMORY. That left us a MARKER so that anyone who teaches otherwise is a FALSE TEACHER. You may remember that the SERPENT who wholly seduced Eve is identified as a Musical Enchanter.
  • <font color=blue>Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should BEGUILE you with enticing words. </font>
Now, if you stop TOO SOON everyone will know that you may be a SEDUCER and just don't want people to know the REST OF THE STORY?
  • <font color=blue> Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

    Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: </font>
To be IN CHRIST one must be BAPTIZED INTO Christ. Now, one of the SEDUCTIONS we are fighting against is the denial of the need for baptism. You seem to suggest some mystical union with the SPIRIT Christ and not the SUFFERING SERVANT who will only be found OUTSIDE of the crows suffering reproaches.

To receive Christ is to receive THE FAITH and THE FAITH is taught and not caught.
  • <font color=blue>Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye HAVE BEEN TAUGHT , abounding THEREIN with thanksgiving.

    Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. </font>
The "trinity" is never seen as THREE PEOPLE with the "holy spirit person" left over to let people CHANGE to fit the CULTURE.
  • <font color=blue> Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

    The WORD is the LOGOS or Hebrew DABAR.
    The LORD is Jehovah and Jesus in prophecy is JEHOVAH- SAVES while the FATHER is Jehovah- Righted.
    The BREATH is the word SPIRIT.
    DANGER, Will Robinson, DANGER</font>
That means that the OPERATIVE CONFESSION is that you must believe that CHRIST came fully in the FLESH. The CHRIST OF GOD is 100% God who has momentarily LAID ASIDE His full glory and majesty.



If you deny BAPTISM then you cannot have A holy spirit (not a twin) or A good conscience: that is you cannot be a Disciple meaning a Christian.

Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS which by definition means one who COMPLIES
  • <font color=blue>Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Col 2:10 And ye are complete IN him, which is the head of all principality and power: </font>
Paul says that salvation by FAITH means being BAPTIZED INTO Christ or His Body. You cannot get INTO the body by just believing in the body.
  • <font color=blue>Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. </font>
A person who is dead in sins does not mean unconsious.
  • <font color=blue>1Ti.5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.

    Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; </font>
The SABBATH was to give REST and not do ceremonial legalism. I will stop here but you THESIS is proven wrong the more you read Paul's OUTLAWING even discussing personal diversities in Romans 14 and then went DIRECTLY into Romans 15 where he defined the SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible. The FIRST thing he outlaws is the PERSONAL PLEASING one another. This means to AROUSE people into an excited state of mind. The METHOD was alsays arousal singing--called enchantment or sorcery--and instruments. This was THE MEANING of heresy where someone with a VESTED interest LIFTS YOU UP with music to CARRY YOU AWAY for their own uses. The word KLEPTOMAI is closely related. In the Old Testament prophecies literally fulfilled they would AROUSE Jesus to REPROACH Him which was to expose his nakedness. Now, surely you don't believe that is a LIBERTY or "bull's eye thing?"

Sorry, fella, but you will NEVER find the LUSTED WORD Psallo which does NOT point to older males plucking a harp in order to get the "hair pluched" boy minister ready for the MOST IMPORTANT act of "worship."

I suppose that if we BUY INTO the "Just Jesus heresy" that will leave the hucksters free to fill in the blanks. I assuredly feel the pain when the "back pews" who have ALWAYS been silenced by professionals get their TONGUE and a pulpit. However, you need to become a teacher "of that which has been taught" and a "singer" of "that which is written" meaning "scripture" as the only way to edify or educate, glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY.

The cat is out of the bag and there is NO TURNING BACK: Jesus has been unchained and for the first time in history honest teachers can do an end run around truth squelchers and GO into the whole world and preach the gospel which has ALWAYS been an offense.

You may have disappeared but hundreds of others will know that you thought that you could throw a little sand into the gears and the MAD MACHINE would grind to a halt.

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

October 16th, 2006, 8:44 am #89



One of the signs of the "church growth movement" is the presence of a "worship leader". What is a worship leader?

First, to understand what is happening, you must know about the World Council of Churches. One of its goals is to bring all Churches, Muslin, Christian, Buddhist, Wicca, occultist and pagan religions of all sorts together under one umbrella. They don't hide this.

It was determined around 1962 that the best way to accomplish this goal was through a charismatic and contemporary music format. The best way to implement these changes was through a slow and gradual infiltration, which has become known (among other things) as the "church growth movement."

What we see today, with the rise of the "worship leader," is one of the tools that brings about change in the church. Since "music" is the key to make all this happen, then the "worship leader" will also be the "music" leader.

These people think the word of God needs a little help to reach all the "‘unchurched’ and ‘disenchanted." The "worship leader” has also become a big part of their "outreach ministry."

One of the Deacons at my former church asked the Elders about "worship leaders." Now, these men claim not to be working in "lock step" with the "Church Growth movement," but they sure know about "worship leaders," This what they said:

This is a want ad for a "worship leader:"(3)

Job Description: St Matthew’s Lutheran Church is passionate about reaching out to the richly diverse and secular neighbors whom we share the freeway with. We are looking for a Minister of Worship & Celebration (Lay or Ordained) who is wired to empower heart-felt worship using today’s music, multi-media and the arts. We are a grace driven ministry that relies upon team building to reach those who normally would not check out church. We tend to be a bit irreverent. We bring our coffee into worship and do not tend to attract the squeaky clean. We are looking for a leader who knows it’s not about them
There are magazines and web sites(3) dedicated to the “worship leader." This has become a big business. Here is an excerpt form a recent article in a "worship leader" magazine telling a little about what they believe:

The Spoken Voice
1. Speaking - Psalm 34:1 says, "I will extol the Lord at all times; his praise will always be on my lips."
2. Shouting - Psalm 27:6 says, "Then my head will be exalted above the enemies who surround me; at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy; I will sing and make music to the Lord."
3. Singing - Psalm 47:6 says, "Sing praises to God, sing praises to our King, sing praises."

Our Posture
1. Bowing - Psalm 95:6 says, "Come let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker."
2. Standing - Psalm 119:120 says, "My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws."
3. Dancing - Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp."

Our Hands
1. Playing Instruments - Psalm 33:2, 3 says, "Praise the Lord with the harp; make music to him on the ten stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy."
2. Clapping - Psalm 47:1 says, "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy."
3. Lifting Hands - Psalm 63:4 says, "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands."
They always give David as their license, but, God tells us in Amos 6:5--Woe to those that act like David:

AMOS 6:5
"That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David;"

You may ask, is a "worship leader" Biblical? In a way, they are. You see God created the first "worship leader".

Ezekiel 28:13-16
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones

Note: "tambrels" are tamborines and "pipes" are wind instruments.

It's no wonder that Satan is called the "enchanter." He has been using music from the very beginning to seduce his prey. It started early with the Bablyonian and Egyptian civilizations in which they would dance, clap, sing and play to their gods. The only thing most contemporary Churches are not doing presently is bringing the gods clean cloths everyday.

From the continent of Africa, where Voodoo chants called up the evil spirits to the shores of America , Satan has always been the user of music and the "worship leader" extraordinaire.

11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.
12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Let's take a look at how Satan uses others to seduce us with his music:

From Musician Carlos Santana:

Santana admits that his success is tied to a spiritual entity. Santana also claims that he has contact with the spirits of musicians who have died, such as Jimi Hendrix and Miles Davis. Santana has claimed that other artists who participated on his album, Supernatural, were brought to him supernaturally to be a part of Metatron's project. He claimed that they heard his music, or were communicated to in dreams, and were told they were to be part of the project.(1)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)

Eminem is the most successful artist of the 21st century. His Marshall Mathers LP sold an incredible 1.76 million copies in its first week, which is the highest first-week sale for a solo artist in history:

" I take seven [kids] from [columbine] and stand 'em all in line. Add an AK-47, a revolver, a nine, a Mac-11 and this ought to solve this problem of mine. And that's a whole school of bullies shot up all of the time, 'cause I'm Shady…"

" I take each individual degenerate's head and reach into it, just to see if he's influenced by me, if he listens to music, and if he feeds into this sh**, he's an innocent victim, and becomes a puppet on the string…"
Rolling Stone admitted:

"A song or an album can change your life; a great concert will change it on the spot."

Tori Amos, who said that Lucifer sits at her piano and helps her with her music, said:

" Music is the most powerful medium in the world because of the frequencies. You're hitting places in people that remind them that they are more than just this functional being."

Science writer and composer, Robert Jourdain, wrote in his book, Music, The Brain And Ecstacy:

" Music seems to be the most immediate of all the arts. …Music possesses us. …It really is as if some 'other' has entered not just our bodies, but our intentions, taking us over."

Medical Dr. and brain specialist, Richard Pellegrino, who is a consultant to the entertainment industry, wrote an article for Billboard Magazine , about the power of music. Dr. Pellegrino speaks of the incomparable power of music upon the human brain, stating that music has the uncanny power to:

"… trigger a flood of human emotions and images that have the ability to instantaneously produce very powerful changes in emotional states."

Pellegrino went on to declare:

" Take it from a brain guy. In 25 years of working with the brain, I still cannot affect a person's state of mind the way that one simple song can."

Eminem states in his song, Marshall Mathers:

"I think I was put here to…destroy your little 4-year-old boy or girl."

Frank Zappa, who was quite anti-Christ, said that when he saw a fish on the back of someone's car he identified them as the enemy. He also admitted to the incredible power and influence rock music has over the human race. In an article he wrote for Life Magazine, he stated:

"The ways in which sound affects the human organism are myriad and subtle. The loud sounds and bright lights of today are tremendous indoctrination tools.
AC/DC was up-front with their fans when they made it clear that they not only found their fame in a rock band by Satan's power, but that they desired to drag their listeners into eternal damnation with them, "if God's on the left, I'm on the right…I'm gonna take ya to hell…I'm gonna get'cha-Satan got 'cha, Hell's Bells…If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine."
Michael Jackson:

"When I hit the stage it’s all of a sudden a magic from somewhere that comes and the spirit just hits you, and you lose control of yourself."

"I wake up from dreams and go, ‘Wow! Put this down on paper!’ The whole thing is strange. You hear the words, everything is right there in front of your face. And you say to yourself, ‘I’m sorry, I just didn’t write this. It’s there already’. I feel that somewhere, someplace, it’s all been done, and I’m the courier bringing it into the world."

From these two sites (1)(2) alone I count well over 85 well known and famous music performers in all areas of music, Christian, blues, and Rock N Roll, that profess to be Satanically driven, or use pagan symbolism in their performances.

This list includes people like Robert Johnson-The Father of Blues, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, and even Amy Grant!

Dear Lord, please forgive us for what we have brought into your Church.

(1) They Sold Their Souls For Rock N Roll
(2) What's Wrong With Christian Rock?
(3) Experiencing Worship - A Resource Guide For the Worshiper and Worship Leader
(4) The Deacons Beg For Answers, and The Elders Reply ... 1035417954

Read Secret Conversion Parts 1-6 ... ersion.htm

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I was just re-reading the initial message at the top—what a painful reminder!!!!! How far certain congregations have gone and arrived at this venture at the expense of the saints’ collection? Can someone honestly search the Scripture and identify the true purpose for letting one “lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come”?

What about I Corinthians 16:
  • [1] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    [2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    [3] And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
Indeed, one of the signs of the Church Growth Movement is the presence of a “Worship Leader.”

It is no secret that at Madison, the “Worship Leader” is:
  • ”… responsible for planning all areas of the worship service and then presenting these plans to the worship committee. This includes the Lord’s Supper, giving, prayers, and the reading of the Lord’s Word as well as the song service.”
Note from the preceding list that all aspects of the “worship service” are included, with the exception of the sermon delivery. Yeah, right, it justifies the full-time employment of a “worship leader”—a very significant “staff” member in the assembly of the saints. Really!?! This sounds more like some kind of a spiritual disease. Don’t I hear “staff infection”?

This past Sunday, Madison’s “Worship Leader” returned after a two-week absence. Someone or something must have prompted him to defend his “spiritual” task that “musical worship”— the way of “leading the congregants into God’s holy presence” —is not entertainment at all. But, you see, “entertainment” is a broad term. But, then, according to the church growth guru, Rick Warren, contemporary-charismatic music [especially with instruments and the band] is the methodology for attracting or demanding the attention of the “un-churched.” Well, call it “holy entertainment” or “redemptive entertainment” or “eternal entertainment” or whatever.

The “Worship Leader” also reminded the congregation that the non-Church-of-Christ professors at Abilene Christian University are impressed with the non-instrumental “congregational” singing in churches of Christ. [Wow! Was that really new news? I thought our congregations were known for “congregational” singing all along. He also compared Madison [his worship-leading congregation … Atta-Boy!] with other congregations who have somewhat departed from the 4-part harmony --- like, hmmm, whose fault is that?

Well, whose fault is that? Let me just very briefly state what has really happened since the advent of the “worship leader” thingy and the “Praise Team” thingy and contemporary-charismatic 7-11 praise music that has rendered the hymns almost extinct, along with the big screen that displays words ONLY, etc.?