Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

June 5th, 2003, 11:17 pm #31

SECRET CONVERSION PART 7

GIVE US A WORSHIP LEADER

One of the signs of the "church growth movement" is the presence of a "worship leader". What is a worship leader?

First, to understand what is happening, you must know about the World Council of Churches. One of its goals is to bring all Churches, Muslin, Christian, Buddhist, Wicca, occultist and pagan religions of all sorts together under one umbrella. They don't hide this.

It was determined around 1962 that the best way to accomplish this goal was through a charismatic and contemporary music format. The best way to implement these changes was through a slow and gradual infiltration, which has become known (among other things) as the "church growth movement."

What we see today, with the rise of the "worship leader," is one of the tools that brings about change in the church. Since "music" is the key to make all this happen, then the "worship leader" will also be the "music" leader.

These people think the word of God needs a little help to reach all the "‘unchurched’ and ‘disenchanted." The "worship leader” has also become a big part of their "outreach ministry."

One of the Deacons at my former church asked the Elders about "worship leaders." Now, these men claim not to be working in "lock step" with the "Church Growth movement," but they sure know about "worship leaders," This what they said:

"IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANNING ALL AREAS OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE
AND THEN PRESENTING THESE PLANS TO THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE. THIS INCLUDES
THE LORD’S SUPPER, GIVING, PRAYERS, AND THE READING OF THE LORD,S WORD AS
WELL AS THE SONG SERVICE"(4)
***********
This is a want ad for a "worship leader:"(3)

Job Description: St Matthew’s Lutheran Church is passionate about reaching out to the richly diverse and secular neighbors whom we share the freeway with. We are looking for a Minister of Worship & Celebration (Lay or Ordained) who is wired to empower heart-felt worship using today’s music, multi-media and the arts. We are a grace driven ministry that relies upon team building to reach those who normally would not check out church. We tend to be a bit irreverent. We bring our coffee into worship and do not tend to attract the squeaky clean. We are looking for a leader who knows it’s not about them
**********
There are magazines and web sites(3) dedicated to the “worship leader." This has become a big business. Here is an excerpt form a recent article in a "worship leader" magazine telling a little about what they believe:

The Spoken Voice
1. Speaking - Psalm 34:1 says, "I will extol the Lord at all times; his praise will always be on my lips."
2. Shouting - Psalm 27:6 says, "Then my head will be exalted above the enemies who surround me; at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy; I will sing and make music to the Lord."
3. Singing - Psalm 47:6 says, "Sing praises to God, sing praises to our King, sing praises."

Our Posture
1. Bowing - Psalm 95:6 says, "Come let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker."
2. Standing - Psalm 119:120 says, "My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws."
3. Dancing - Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp."

Our Hands
1. Playing Instruments - Psalm 33:2, 3 says, "Praise the Lord with the harp; make music to him on the ten stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy."
2. Clapping - Psalm 47:1 says, "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy."
3. Lifting Hands - Psalm 63:4 says, "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands."
**********
They always give David as their license, but, God tells us in Amos 6:5--Woe to those that act like David:

AMOS 6:5
"That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David;"

You may ask, is a "worship leader" Biblical? In a way, they are. You see God created the first "worship leader".

Ezekiel 28:13-16
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones

Note: "tambrels" are tamborines and "pipes" are wind instruments.

It's no wonder that Satan is called the "enchanter." He has been using music from the very beginning to seduce his prey. It started early with the Bablyonian and Egyptian civilizations in which they would dance, clap, sing and play to their gods. The only thing most contemporary Churches are not doing presently is bringing the gods clean cloths everyday.

From the continent of Africa, where Voodoo chants called up the evil spirits to the shores of America , Satan has always been the user of music and the "worship leader" extraordinaire.

Isaiah14:11-12
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.
12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!

Let's take a look at how Satan uses others to seduce us with his music:

************
From Musician Carlos Santana:

Santana admits that his success is tied to a spiritual entity. Santana also claims that he has contact with the spirits of musicians who have died, such as Jimi Hendrix and Miles Davis. Santana has claimed that other artists who participated on his album, Supernatural, were brought to him supernaturally to be a part of Metatron's project. He claimed that they heard his music, or were communicated to in dreams, and were told they were to be part of the project.(1)

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)
************

Eminem is the most successful artist of the 21st century. His Marshall Mathers LP sold an incredible 1.76 million copies in its first week, which is the highest first-week sale for a solo artist in history:

" I take seven [kids] from [columbine] and stand 'em all in line. Add an AK-47, a revolver, a nine, a Mac-11 and this ought to solve this problem of mine. And that's a whole school of bullies shot up all of the time, 'cause I'm Shady…"

" I take each individual degenerate's head and reach into it, just to see if he's influenced by me, if he listens to music, and if he feeds into this sh**, he's an innocent victim, and becomes a puppet on the string…"
************
Rolling Stone admitted:

"A song or an album can change your life; a great concert will change it on the spot."
***********

Tori Amos, who said that Lucifer sits at her piano and helps her with her music, said:

" Music is the most powerful medium in the world because of the frequencies. You're hitting places in people that remind them that they are more than just this functional being."
***********

Science writer and composer, Robert Jourdain, wrote in his book, Music, The Brain And Ecstacy:

" Music seems to be the most immediate of all the arts. …Music possesses us. …It really is as if some 'other' has entered not just our bodies, but our intentions, taking us over."
**********

Medical Dr. and brain specialist, Richard Pellegrino, who is a consultant to the entertainment industry, wrote an article for Billboard Magazine , about the power of music. Dr. Pellegrino speaks of the incomparable power of music upon the human brain, stating that music has the uncanny power to:

"… trigger a flood of human emotions and images that have the ability to instantaneously produce very powerful changes in emotional states."

Pellegrino went on to declare:

" Take it from a brain guy. In 25 years of working with the brain, I still cannot affect a person's state of mind the way that one simple song can."
********

Eminem states in his song, Marshall Mathers:

"I think I was put here to…destroy your little 4-year-old boy or girl."
********

Frank Zappa, who was quite anti-Christ, said that when he saw a fish on the back of someone's car he identified them as the enemy. He also admitted to the incredible power and influence rock music has over the human race. In an article he wrote for Life Magazine, he stated:

"The ways in which sound affects the human organism are myriad and subtle. The loud sounds and bright lights of today are tremendous indoctrination tools.
********
AC/DC was up-front with their fans when they made it clear that they not only found their fame in a rock band by Satan's power, but that they desired to drag their listeners into eternal damnation with them, "if God's on the left, I'm on the right…I'm gonna take ya to hell…I'm gonna get'cha-Satan got 'cha, Hell's Bells…If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine."
********
Michael Jackson:

"When I hit the stage it’s all of a sudden a magic from somewhere that comes and the spirit just hits you, and you lose control of yourself."

"I wake up from dreams and go, ‘Wow! Put this down on paper!’ The whole thing is strange. You hear the words, everything is right there in front of your face. And you say to yourself, ‘I’m sorry, I just didn’t write this. It’s there already’. I feel that somewhere, someplace, it’s all been done, and I’m the courier bringing it into the world."
*******

From these two sites (1)(2) alone I count well over 85 well known and famous music performers in all areas of music, Christian, blues, and Rock N Roll, that profess to be Satanically driven, or use pagan symbolism in their performances.

This list includes people like Robert Johnson-The Father of Blues, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, and even Amy Grant!

Dear Lord, please forgive us for what we have brought into your Church.



(1) They Sold Their Souls For Rock N Roll
http://www.goodfight.org/
(2) What's Wrong With Christian Rock?
http://www.freedomministries.org.uk/godwin/index.shtml
(3) Experiencing Worship - A Resource Guide For the Worshiper and Worship Leader
http://www.experiencingworship.com/
(4) The Deacons Beg For Answers, and The Elders Reply
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/mes ... 1035417954

Read Secret Conversion Parts 1-6
http://www.concernedmembers.com/editori ... ersion.htm

Zoe has the people restless in Phoenix because they know that the church will be discorded more and more. ZOE'S theme for their Look to the Hills (Where the mountain gods live) conference is:

--------A CONSUMING FIRE: AN EXPERIENCE IN WORSHIP--------

Lest you think this unusual look at this quote from another group trying to light your fires with body worship:

A Web Page "Spreading the fire" Fuel the Fire

----"The nature of a fire is to spread, but how can we expect the fire to grow and to CATCH ONTO others if ours is only a CANDLE-sized flame? The best way to witness to your friends is to show them by example. When Non-Christians see the INFERNO in our lives they will find it IRRESISTIBLE and will be drawn like moths."

INFERNO means "HELL or suggesting hell." The CONSUMERS WITH FIRE literally invite you to participate in HELL right now. But God always MARKS them with some sign so that those awake will not turn into toast.

HERE IS THE MARK. The cute Zoe in Phoenix invitation to a burning is quoted from Hebrews. Obviously God has MOCKED the whole group in that they DEFINE just whom will be CONSUMED by God's fire: those who do not approach God with REVERENCE AND HOLY FEAR. After all, there is a big gap between the God of the Universe and a lover. The "emerging church" revelations often make appeals to rituals muck like witchcraft. Music was always a favorite WEAPON to seduce you. The FAMILIAR SPIRIT of the witch of Endor was an empty wineskin as an echo chamber with much the meaning of the harp and Pauls "echoing bronze."

Paul, as usual, directs us back to an earlier CONSUMING fire and tells us why they turned into toast:

----"See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they ESCAPED NOT who REFUSED him that spake on earth, MUCH MORE shall not we escape, if we TURN AWAY from him that speaketh from heaven: Heb. 12:25

You know how the latter day apostles MOCK the idea of using Nadab and Abihu. Matthew Henry notes:

---"Him that spake on earth: MOSES, who spoke on the part of God to the Hebrews, every transgression of whose word received a just recompense of reward, none being permitted to escape punishment; consequently, if ye turn away from Christ, who speaks to you from heaven, you may expect a MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, the offense against God being so much the MORE HEINOUS, as the privileges slighted are more important and glorious. Matthew Henry

Those who REFUSE Paul's use of Nadab and Abihu must KNOW that the candle has been lit and if they are good AGENTS they must ridicule anyone who would refer to God's types or PATTERNS. That includes the WHOLE BIBLE exept the core gospel of "seven facts about God." Who can be so gullible as to drink Jones Town Koolaid? You dear brother are just as vulnerable when you mock the Word of God or those who quote it.

ALL musical "teamsters" REFUSE AND TURN AWAY from Christ Who still speaks from heaven through His word. Furthermore, they deliberately try to keep others from hearing the WORDS or songs of Lord Jesus Christ Who is the Spirit of the Prophets. All "singing" which is not TEACHING is a SIN. How better than to SUBSTITUTE one's on silly but VEILING ditties? I don't accept that these people are SINCERE for one second.

THOSE WHO REFUSED MOSES FROM EARTH: "And there went out FIRE from the Lord, and DEVOURED them, and they died before the Lord. Lev 10:2

REFUSING CHRIST WHO HAS SPOKEN FROM HEAVEN and REFUSING to worship Him with fear and reverence will make you the MOTHS who "COME TO THE LIGHT" and get zapped. Why? How is treating a Holy God as someone to be entertained or seduced so much more WICKED and deserving a worse punishment than "strange fire?? They DELIBERATELY "block the gate" to those seeking the Kingdom of God within and the only thing worse than PHYSICAL BURNING is SPIRITUAL AND ETERNAL BURNING. That is what Paul said and that is why as good little AGENTS they need to tell you that the epistles are just garbage.

-------"For our God is a CONSUMING fire. Heb.12:29

REVERENCE is: Aidos (g127) ahee-doce'; perh. from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.

When the feminine or effeminate swing and sway and clap and sing silly, erotic praise songs, they CANNOT be reverent and they MANUFACTURE irreverence. There is no such thing as reverent DRAMA or HAND CLAPPING or oohing and aahing. People want you to COME TO THE LIGHT to feed the beast. If they can ONCE make you connect spiritual worship to sexuality by musical stroking it is harder to kick than Crack.

GOODLY FEAR is: Eulabeia (g2124) yoo-lab'-i-ah; from 2126; prop. caution, i.e. (religiously) reverence (piety); by impl. dread (concr.): - fear (- ed).

Most "team worshipers" sing, clap, dance, use drama which have their origin in Lucifer or Sophia/ Zoe before he/she was CAST OUT of heaven along with his "worshipers." There can be no Godly fear and God is MOCKING them with blindness to MARK and lead out others who are blind.

True "worship" is like a "dog licking his master's feet" because a human approaching God in the Most Holy Place comes boldly but not with DELIBERATE IRREVERANCE.

You can pay up to $86.00 dollars for "all the bells and whistles'by the time you get to Phoenix plus transportation, housing, food and etc. Do you know why they try so urgently to spend the LORD'S MONEY defeating the LORD'S WORD?

You can learn about "praise", creative programming, technology, a new agape which probably you cannot DO in church on the Lord's day (Sabbath is Saturn is 666). visual arts, worship experience, worship ministry, media, audio, technology, blended worship.

Wittingly or half-wittingly they are inviting you to be trained in exactly those SKILLS which Paul said got Nadab and Abihum consumed and will get YOU consumed. God WILL NOT be mocked and your soul will also burn in the INVITED TO Inferno.

-------

Of Lucifer who is Zoe or Sophi-Zoe, Origen translated it:

"I gave thee for a SHOW and a MOCKERY on account of the multitude of thy sins, and of thine iniquities:

-----"because of thy trade (musical trade and CDs) thou hast polluted (play the flute, pollute, prostitute) thy holy places. And I shall bring forth fire from the MIDST of thee, and it shall devour thee, and I shall give thee for ashes and cinders on the earth in the sight of all who see thee: and all who know thee among the nations shall mourn over thee. Thou hast been made destruction, and thou shalt exist no longer for ever." (Ezek. 28:)

IT IS A FACT: GOD USES THEIR OWN BREATH TO CONSUME THEIR SPIRITS.

The Babylon Harlot has her worship ministers: the SINGING musicians are muses (locusts). As Lucifer was cast out of heaven for TRAFFICKING, the end time harlot is a blend of false religion, musicians to fool the fools and commerce. She is cunning because she disguises her weapons of wind, string and percussion instruments in the bodies of an organic musical instrument.

http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html

Added pictures of FIRE worship where music meant CONSUMING YOUR CHILDREN in CANAAN LAND.

Ken
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Moselle
Moselle

June 24th, 2003, 4:38 am #32

Worship leaders in the Bible? What about the term "music minister" as we call a man at our church? I don't know if that term makes it more palatable for those of you who seem to hate us who believe in using instruments... All I know is that here's one example of those who were responsible for the instrumental music in God's temple:
1 Chronicles 9:33
"Those who were musicians, heads of Levite families, stayed in the rooms of the temple and were exempt from other duties because they were responsible for the work day and night."
Those who were musicians... they were gifted in music, and were responsible their work as such... would God not want those who were gifted as such to be responsible for working in it day and night (as Scott, our dear music minister does!) to lead his people in praises? I believe He would.

As for music in praise to our Lord, there are more verses that support it than I'd care to count. Here are just a few. I'm sure you've heard them before, and I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind, but I have to live by my ideal of speaking where God's word speaks.

1 Kings 10
11 Hiram's ships brought gold from Ophir; and from there they brought great cargoes of almugwood and precious stones. 12 The king used the almugwood to make supports for the temple of the LORD and for the royal palace, and to make harps and lyres for the musicians. So much almugwood has never been imported or seen since that day.


Psalm 27
5 For in the day of trouble
he will keep me safe in his dwelling;
he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle
and set me high upon a rock.
6 Then my head will be exalted
above the enemies who surround me;
at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make music to the LORD .

Psalm 33
1 Sing joyfully to the LORD , you righteous;
it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
2 Praise the LORD with the harp;
make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.
3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully, and shout for joy.

I love you all... whether you agree with me or not, I will not be angry, because we are all one body, baptized for the remission of sins into Christ Jesus our Lord.

Moselle
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

June 24th, 2003, 9:09 pm #33

Although there are obviously sharp discussions taking place on this website, I doubt (and sincerely hope) that hate is not the motivation behind any of them. I dare say that the majority of the "hateful" posts come from those advocating unscriptural change in Christ's church.

Speaking of scripture, I'm glad that you included some in your reply. The scriptures settle any and all issues. However, I didn't see any New Testament authority for using instrument music during worship in your post. Is it because there is none? If we can rely on Old Testament/Mosaic authority, then I'm sure you wouldn't object to offering animal sacrifices and burning incense instead of taking the Lord's Supper?? No, I thought not.

Please refer to Leviticus 10:1-3, an example of progressing beyond what God commands. This example even deals directly with worship - in doing something that "God had NOT commanded". Compare that with I Corinthians 4:6, where Paul tells us to "not go beyond what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one another". In II John 8-10, we are warned to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". The derivative of the Greek root word for "goes on ahead" means "progress".

I applaud your statement: "... I have to live by my ideal and speak where God's word speaks";however, we can't pick which part to follow. "All scripture is given by inspiration" and it must be "rightly divided".

Mark Waggoner

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Jeremy
Jeremy

June 25th, 2003, 3:19 am #34

I was always told that we are not to follow the Old Law, as it was abolished and replaced with the New Law. It doesn't say that the Old Testament was abolished, just the Old Law. And from what I was told, the Book of the Law consists of the first five books of the Bible (for those that aren't familiar, that'd be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

The Law it refers to, if my Bible classes have been accurate, pertains exactly to what you're talking about -- we don't have to sacrifice animals, because Jesus was our ultimate sacrifice. The Israelites lived under a system of some 600-odd laws, which were removed when Jesus died to take away our sins.

The music that is mentioned in Psalms is not condemned, and it's not a part of the Old Law. It is a part of the Old Testament. Please note the difference. I'm not completely advocating their use in the church; I've grown up without them and it just seems normal to me. You grew up hearing that they are condemned and are instruments of Satan, so you still see it as that. The use of instruments in the Old Testament did not seem to be included in the actual Old Law teachings, so if you ask me, they would continue to be valid during the New Testament times. To me, that's just syllogism. But since I'm posting on this site, I guess that's called "being a change agent".
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Mark
Mark

June 25th, 2003, 4:24 am #35

Although there are obviously sharp discussions taking place on this website, I doubt (and sincerely hope) that hate is not the motivation behind any of them. I dare say that the majority of the "hateful" posts come from those advocating unscriptural change in Christ's church.

Speaking of scripture, I'm glad that you included some in your reply. The scriptures settle any and all issues. However, I didn't see any New Testament authority for using instrument music during worship in your post. Is it because there is none? If we can rely on Old Testament/Mosaic authority, then I'm sure you wouldn't object to offering animal sacrifices and burning incense instead of taking the Lord's Supper?? No, I thought not.

Please refer to Leviticus 10:1-3, an example of progressing beyond what God commands. This example even deals directly with worship - in doing something that "God had NOT commanded". Compare that with I Corinthians 4:6, where Paul tells us to "not go beyond what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one another". In II John 8-10, we are warned to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". The derivative of the Greek root word for "goes on ahead" means "progress".

I applaud your statement: "... I have to live by my ideal and speak where God's word speaks";however, we can't pick which part to follow. "All scripture is given by inspiration" and it must be "rightly divided".

Mark Waggoner
Brother Mark:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate not being attacked by you, as I was worried I would be (I've been reading a lot on this site!), and will answer your questions as best as possible.

The "hateful" comments I have read in fact have not come from those who "advocate changing the scriptures" as you have suggested. Rather, they have come from traditionalists who seem that they would rather confuse most readers than give a clear message to all. I certainly don't know if this is their intent, and I hope not, but I know that there are many posts that I simply have to skip, as I am not educated enough in languages like "Subblish" to understand the meaning of what they are trying to say.

As for there not being any scriptures in the New Testament SPECIFICALLY CONDONING instrumental worship, many searches through my own Bible and several concordances do not bring up any SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNING it. The Bible says to sing hymns- where in the New Testament does it say they were not accompanied? I know that Ephesians 5:19b it tells us to "sing and make music in your heart." For many of us, the music in our hearts means joy, peace, love... Singing and making music in my heart is a part of my everyday life. I praise God because my heart knows nothing else. I do so by "singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."

I read the passage from Leviticus that you referred to. I also read the preceding chapters. From your point of view that you presented to me, this has to do with sacrifices- the Old Testament form of atonement, so it should not be a valid point anyway. It is also in the Old Testament, so it doesn't really "count" as a true example.

As for going beyond what is written, isn't taking things to a right-wing extreme in one direction the same as taking things to a severe liberal position in the other? If you read the verses leading up to verse 6 in 1 Corinthians 4, you will see that the entire discussion is about judging others "before the appointed time" and we are to "wait until the Lord comes." At the end of verse 5, it states that his light "will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." The entire text of verse 6 is as follows: "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, 'Do not go beyond what is written.' Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." Paul states here that he is instructing them how to discern the MEANING OF A SAYING. Where was your contextual basis for this point?

2 John 1:8-10 in fact does state that we are to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". Were you aware that the Amish also use this verse as part of a scriptural basis for the way they live? They believe those who make progress are doomed. I believe, as do many others, that this passage is dealing with those who present a new gospel, who "make progress" with the words of Jesus... that is to go ahead with their own version of the plan of salvation.

Isn't salvation by God's grace more important than whether instruments are used in His church? Let me ask you this... and Mr. Subblett I'm sure I'll hear from you, so answer this question for me.

I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Hebrews 11:6) I have repented of my sins. (Luke 13:3-5, Luke 15:7, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) I have confessed the name of the Lord (Matthew 10:32-33, Mark 8:38, 1 Timothy 6:12-13, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:36-37) I have been baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins (Matthew 28:10-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 16:33, Acts 8:36-39, Romans 6:4-6, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5). The church is Christ's body. To be saved, I am a part of His body. He HIMSELF is the head over it. (Matthew 16:18, Acts 2:47, Acts 20:28, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:22-23, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Colossians 1:23, Ephesians 4:15, Hebrews 12:23) My obedience in faith, repentance, confession and baptism also makes us a member of the body of Christ, both happen simultaneously. If I remain faithful until death, then the Lord will take me to Himself. (2 Peter 1:5-12, Matthew 24:13, Revelations 2:10, Revelations 2:26-27, Revelations 3:10, Revelations 3:21) I am faithful to my Lord. I study His word, I pray, I sing His praises, I attempt to live my life as a continual prayer and song to please Him. Because I agree that using musical instruments in the service is acceptable (and even pleasing!) to God, does this mean in your eyes that I am going to hell?

I read somewhere else on this site (I believe in one of the sponsored links) that one of the reasons that community churches are not Christian is because of the extra conditions, such as signing covenants, they impose on those who wish to be members of the church. Is not requiring that they do not wish to use instruments in worship, or requiring that they don't clap hands also imposing a condition on being a member of the body of Christ?

Going back to your reference in 1 Corinthians 4, Mark... if we follow our eyes in the natural progression to the end of the chapter, we see in verses 21 and 22 the following:
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?"

I don't know about any other people that agree with my viewpoints on music in the worship service, but I feel thoroughly "whipped"

In Sisterly Love,
Moselle
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

June 25th, 2003, 6:24 pm #36

I was always told that we are not to follow the Old Law, as it was abolished and replaced with the New Law. It doesn't say that the Old Testament was abolished, just the Old Law. And from what I was told, the Book of the Law consists of the first five books of the Bible (for those that aren't familiar, that'd be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

The Law it refers to, if my Bible classes have been accurate, pertains exactly to what you're talking about -- we don't have to sacrifice animals, because Jesus was our ultimate sacrifice. The Israelites lived under a system of some 600-odd laws, which were removed when Jesus died to take away our sins.

The music that is mentioned in Psalms is not condemned, and it's not a part of the Old Law. It is a part of the Old Testament. Please note the difference. I'm not completely advocating their use in the church; I've grown up without them and it just seems normal to me. You grew up hearing that they are condemned and are instruments of Satan, so you still see it as that. The use of instruments in the Old Testament did not seem to be included in the actual Old Law teachings, so if you ask me, they would continue to be valid during the New Testament times. To me, that's just syllogism. But since I'm posting on this site, I guess that's called "being a change agent".
People wrote and sang their own songs. David even sang and meditated on a Psalm ON MY BED. That means that David spoke a Psalm to himself and meditated on it in his heart. Even in the Synagogue people cantillated (not singing as we know it) the PROSE parts of the writings before they began SPEAKING to one another with the poetic or metrical material. This metrical version can be divided into 5 books to somewhat parallel the Torah.

Lu.24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the PSALMS, concerning me.

Paul's use of Psalmns, Hymns and Spiritual songs are all clearly defined (especially in the Greek version) as TYPES of the metrical material in the BOOK of Psalms. In addition, the Maschal or Maskil (?) were dark sayings or proverbs in the Book of the Psalm.

The synagogue or church in the wilderness (Qahal) was for TEACHING the Word of God. They were allowed to CALL the assembly with the silver trumpets. However, when they assembled as a SCHOOL the triumph over or "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord" was forbidden in Numbers 10:7. It was just common decency that people didn't sing, play, dance and clap their hands as the WARRIOR'S chant when God was speaking through Moses or others.

It is quite proper to sing or as Paul would day, SPEAK a Psalm about bashing out the heads of little Babylonian babies if it is used to SPEAK OR PREACH one to another and explain the meaning as a sermon. The prose record fills in the details.

Paul outlawed anything which would create SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT which was the goal of the "alarm" or "triumph over" condemned for the synagogue in Romans 15. THEN you can "glorify God with ONE MOUTH and ONE VOICE by reciting "that which is written." That which is written is by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11)

Most of the Psalms make no mention of instruments; when instruments are mentioned the purpose is magical or condemning.

http://www.piney.com/MuArndt.html

Look at the color-coded chart to see that the colors indicate a PROCESSIONAL, new moons, symbolic, VENGEANCE, arousal or AWAKENING the HARP, FEAR of being cast off, historical warning, prophetic. None of them are remotely related to "congregational worship" because the people's congregation always met in a form of the synagogue and "there was never a praise service in the synagogue" any more than you hire one to help you teach your chemistry class.

Psalms are actually DEMANDED to "teach that which is written" but NEVER for a pagan "praise service" trying to get cozy with a Spirit God. The commanded ACT is teaching. With Jesus the SINGING was "grieving out" a hymn. And it is His Death, not the resurrection of ISHTAR, which we are to honor with REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR because: "God is God and you are not."

Ken
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 25th, 2003, 7:06 pm #37

I was always told that we are not to follow the Old Law, as it was abolished and replaced with the New Law. It doesn't say that the Old Testament was abolished, just the Old Law. And from what I was told, the Book of the Law consists of the first five books of the Bible (for those that aren't familiar, that'd be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

The Law it refers to, if my Bible classes have been accurate, pertains exactly to what you're talking about -- we don't have to sacrifice animals, because Jesus was our ultimate sacrifice. The Israelites lived under a system of some 600-odd laws, which were removed when Jesus died to take away our sins.

The music that is mentioned in Psalms is not condemned, and it's not a part of the Old Law. It is a part of the Old Testament. Please note the difference. I'm not completely advocating their use in the church; I've grown up without them and it just seems normal to me. You grew up hearing that they are condemned and are instruments of Satan, so you still see it as that. The use of instruments in the Old Testament did not seem to be included in the actual Old Law teachings, so if you ask me, they would continue to be valid during the New Testament times. To me, that's just syllogism. But since I'm posting on this site, I guess that's called "being a change agent".
Jeremy:

In Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, there are numerous references to: (1) tithe, (2) tithes or (3) tithing. Why is Madison’s preacher, as some others in other congregations do, too, now teach and preach on “tithing”? I agree with you -- but it’s also common knowledge -- that the Old Testament portion of the Holy Scriptures has not been abolished. I believe you should bring this to Dr. White’s attention that this law or command [of TITHING] is no longer applicable to New Testament Christians.

I’ll make a correction to your statement regarding music. It’s true that MUSIC is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. And so is “MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS”! But you need to discover for yourself that in no instances were they ever used in the WORSHIP assembly. The passages are in reference to honoring kings and rulers and, in many instances, to idolatrous worship.

But you must agree with me that the Old Testament is really congruent to the peoples of the world and their practices AT/OF THE TIME, just as the New Testament contains doctrines and beliefs that “New Testament” Christians must adhere to in our time. We must not get the purposes for having both testaments confused. Does it mean we should disavow or disregard the Old Testament? No! No! No! There are principles that are unchanging and consistent in both sections of the Bible. But commands and practices change. Dispensations change. I believe, as the Bible says, that there is merit to learning something about the past … you know … that thing that we call “history.” But that’s the extent of it: HISTORY. It is good to know, for example, that prophecies contained in the Old Testament, have been fulfilled, such as: the coming of our Savior and the establishment of the His church.

Finally, let me just quote to you so that many people will not be confused any longer: “FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4).

Donnie Cruz
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

June 25th, 2003, 11:32 pm #38

Brother Mark:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate not being attacked by you, as I was worried I would be (I've been reading a lot on this site!), and will answer your questions as best as possible.

The "hateful" comments I have read in fact have not come from those who "advocate changing the scriptures" as you have suggested. Rather, they have come from traditionalists who seem that they would rather confuse most readers than give a clear message to all. I certainly don't know if this is their intent, and I hope not, but I know that there are many posts that I simply have to skip, as I am not educated enough in languages like "Subblish" to understand the meaning of what they are trying to say.

As for there not being any scriptures in the New Testament SPECIFICALLY CONDONING instrumental worship, many searches through my own Bible and several concordances do not bring up any SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNING it. The Bible says to sing hymns- where in the New Testament does it say they were not accompanied? I know that Ephesians 5:19b it tells us to "sing and make music in your heart." For many of us, the music in our hearts means joy, peace, love... Singing and making music in my heart is a part of my everyday life. I praise God because my heart knows nothing else. I do so by "singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."

I read the passage from Leviticus that you referred to. I also read the preceding chapters. From your point of view that you presented to me, this has to do with sacrifices- the Old Testament form of atonement, so it should not be a valid point anyway. It is also in the Old Testament, so it doesn't really "count" as a true example.

As for going beyond what is written, isn't taking things to a right-wing extreme in one direction the same as taking things to a severe liberal position in the other? If you read the verses leading up to verse 6 in 1 Corinthians 4, you will see that the entire discussion is about judging others "before the appointed time" and we are to "wait until the Lord comes." At the end of verse 5, it states that his light "will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." The entire text of verse 6 is as follows: "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, 'Do not go beyond what is written.' Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." Paul states here that he is instructing them how to discern the MEANING OF A SAYING. Where was your contextual basis for this point?

2 John 1:8-10 in fact does state that we are to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". Were you aware that the Amish also use this verse as part of a scriptural basis for the way they live? They believe those who make progress are doomed. I believe, as do many others, that this passage is dealing with those who present a new gospel, who "make progress" with the words of Jesus... that is to go ahead with their own version of the plan of salvation.

Isn't salvation by God's grace more important than whether instruments are used in His church? Let me ask you this... and Mr. Subblett I'm sure I'll hear from you, so answer this question for me.

I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Hebrews 11:6) I have repented of my sins. (Luke 13:3-5, Luke 15:7, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) I have confessed the name of the Lord (Matthew 10:32-33, Mark 8:38, 1 Timothy 6:12-13, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:36-37) I have been baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins (Matthew 28:10-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 16:33, Acts 8:36-39, Romans 6:4-6, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5). The church is Christ's body. To be saved, I am a part of His body. He HIMSELF is the head over it. (Matthew 16:18, Acts 2:47, Acts 20:28, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:22-23, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Colossians 1:23, Ephesians 4:15, Hebrews 12:23) My obedience in faith, repentance, confession and baptism also makes us a member of the body of Christ, both happen simultaneously. If I remain faithful until death, then the Lord will take me to Himself. (2 Peter 1:5-12, Matthew 24:13, Revelations 2:10, Revelations 2:26-27, Revelations 3:10, Revelations 3:21) I am faithful to my Lord. I study His word, I pray, I sing His praises, I attempt to live my life as a continual prayer and song to please Him. Because I agree that using musical instruments in the service is acceptable (and even pleasing!) to God, does this mean in your eyes that I am going to hell?

I read somewhere else on this site (I believe in one of the sponsored links) that one of the reasons that community churches are not Christian is because of the extra conditions, such as signing covenants, they impose on those who wish to be members of the church. Is not requiring that they do not wish to use instruments in worship, or requiring that they don't clap hands also imposing a condition on being a member of the body of Christ?

Going back to your reference in 1 Corinthians 4, Mark... if we follow our eyes in the natural progression to the end of the chapter, we see in verses 21 and 22 the following:
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?"

I don't know about any other people that agree with my viewpoints on music in the worship service, but I feel thoroughly "whipped"

In Sisterly Love,
Moselle
Moselle, I don't know how I get across the point that we are not talking about you other than to answer specific questions.

Now, If my name were Jesus or Jehovah- Saved I might give you a good grade for all of your works. However, it is carefully taught DIVERSION to try to define the evil uses to which MUSIC is put by testing it by ME or THEE. If you turn out to be the Messiah and I turn out to be Satan, not one jot or tittle will change in the inspired Word.

The other deliberate lie is about Godly commands, examples and inferenes, and about the silence of Scripture. The Bible beginning in the garden of Eden is not silent about Satan's WHOLLY SEDUCTION of Eve, or as it does a flashback to the heavenly realm where he/ she led the angels astray. The CARNAL WEAPON or LIFELESS instrument was MUSIC which always went along with other devices to duct-tape the mouth of God.

Where the preachers lustfully lie about silence and commands, I have posted a stream of quotations from the Bible and historical writers to PROOVE that what is called "legalistic" flows out of the heart of God. Scripture is NOT SILENT about honoring God's Silence.

Contrary to your false trail of tears, I don't do HEAVEN or HELL but all of the Biblical and contemporary writings during that time proves that DOING music for the synagogue (not church) violates the law given to the Israelites for "the church in the wilderness." Other passages try to SILENCE the words of Christ. If you are singing secular tunes with instruments no lawyer on the face of the earth could prove that you are worshipping God, meaning TO GIVE HEED to Him.

I don't jump into musical churches as they deliberately organize to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT to steal non-instrumental churches. You cannot name a single non-instrumental church in history which sent out "evangelists" to use the law to force people to use instruments and pay "taxes."

This site is primarily directed at churches which HAVE BEEN or are BEING confiscated by bandits as evil as history knows of. So, if you are not stealing a non- instrumental church, just cool it. Maybe someone will send your list of works on ahead but as you see them as LAW they will all fall into dust if you conspire to TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE during "class time."

Ken
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

June 26th, 2003, 12:01 am #39

Brother Mark:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate not being attacked by you, as I was worried I would be (I've been reading a lot on this site!), and will answer your questions as best as possible.

The "hateful" comments I have read in fact have not come from those who "advocate changing the scriptures" as you have suggested. Rather, they have come from traditionalists who seem that they would rather confuse most readers than give a clear message to all. I certainly don't know if this is their intent, and I hope not, but I know that there are many posts that I simply have to skip, as I am not educated enough in languages like "Subblish" to understand the meaning of what they are trying to say.

As for there not being any scriptures in the New Testament SPECIFICALLY CONDONING instrumental worship, many searches through my own Bible and several concordances do not bring up any SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNING it. The Bible says to sing hymns- where in the New Testament does it say they were not accompanied? I know that Ephesians 5:19b it tells us to "sing and make music in your heart." For many of us, the music in our hearts means joy, peace, love... Singing and making music in my heart is a part of my everyday life. I praise God because my heart knows nothing else. I do so by "singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."

I read the passage from Leviticus that you referred to. I also read the preceding chapters. From your point of view that you presented to me, this has to do with sacrifices- the Old Testament form of atonement, so it should not be a valid point anyway. It is also in the Old Testament, so it doesn't really "count" as a true example.

As for going beyond what is written, isn't taking things to a right-wing extreme in one direction the same as taking things to a severe liberal position in the other? If you read the verses leading up to verse 6 in 1 Corinthians 4, you will see that the entire discussion is about judging others "before the appointed time" and we are to "wait until the Lord comes." At the end of verse 5, it states that his light "will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." The entire text of verse 6 is as follows: "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, 'Do not go beyond what is written.' Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." Paul states here that he is instructing them how to discern the MEANING OF A SAYING. Where was your contextual basis for this point?

2 John 1:8-10 in fact does state that we are to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". Were you aware that the Amish also use this verse as part of a scriptural basis for the way they live? They believe those who make progress are doomed. I believe, as do many others, that this passage is dealing with those who present a new gospel, who "make progress" with the words of Jesus... that is to go ahead with their own version of the plan of salvation.

Isn't salvation by God's grace more important than whether instruments are used in His church? Let me ask you this... and Mr. Subblett I'm sure I'll hear from you, so answer this question for me.

I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Hebrews 11:6) I have repented of my sins. (Luke 13:3-5, Luke 15:7, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) I have confessed the name of the Lord (Matthew 10:32-33, Mark 8:38, 1 Timothy 6:12-13, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:36-37) I have been baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins (Matthew 28:10-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 16:33, Acts 8:36-39, Romans 6:4-6, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5). The church is Christ's body. To be saved, I am a part of His body. He HIMSELF is the head over it. (Matthew 16:18, Acts 2:47, Acts 20:28, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:22-23, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Colossians 1:23, Ephesians 4:15, Hebrews 12:23) My obedience in faith, repentance, confession and baptism also makes us a member of the body of Christ, both happen simultaneously. If I remain faithful until death, then the Lord will take me to Himself. (2 Peter 1:5-12, Matthew 24:13, Revelations 2:10, Revelations 2:26-27, Revelations 3:10, Revelations 3:21) I am faithful to my Lord. I study His word, I pray, I sing His praises, I attempt to live my life as a continual prayer and song to please Him. Because I agree that using musical instruments in the service is acceptable (and even pleasing!) to God, does this mean in your eyes that I am going to hell?

I read somewhere else on this site (I believe in one of the sponsored links) that one of the reasons that community churches are not Christian is because of the extra conditions, such as signing covenants, they impose on those who wish to be members of the church. Is not requiring that they do not wish to use instruments in worship, or requiring that they don't clap hands also imposing a condition on being a member of the body of Christ?

Going back to your reference in 1 Corinthians 4, Mark... if we follow our eyes in the natural progression to the end of the chapter, we see in verses 21 and 22 the following:
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?"

I don't know about any other people that agree with my viewpoints on music in the worship service, but I feel thoroughly "whipped"

In Sisterly Love,
Moselle
Moselle

There isn't much to gain by debating which "side" posts the most venomous statements. I have been repeatedly attacked by cowardly, anonymous people who appear to enjoy a fight rather than a discussion. I choose to stand by the Bible as my sole source of authority; not plotting a "conservative", "liberal", or "moderate" course. The truth is the truth.

I very much appreciated (and agree with) your detailed description of coming to salvation. Christ adds one to His assembly when that person accepts His grace through faithful obedience. From your posts, I see that you also believe this to be true. However; our particular disconnect appears to be one of scriptural authority, which includes the issue of instrumental music in worship to God and whether or not this is a "salvation issue". We should all respect God's authority and never be presumptuous concerning anything we do during worship or in our everyday lives, for that matter.

I found it ironic that in your first post, you listed Old Testament passages to support your initial argument but said that my point concerning Leviticus 10 "didn't count" because it was in the Old Testament. The offering of "strange fire" was an act of worship of the priests. This wasn't a violation of a "thou shalt not", it was something that "God commanded them not". In other words, God was silent on this issue! That was my reason for quoting that passage. If the Bible has to tell us EVERYTHING that we cannot do, a human being could not print, read, or carry it because it would be an endless document. Also, there would be no end to what is "authorized": "let's shoot off pyrotechnics during worship and really liven it up - the Bible doesn't say not to". Just because something is done in the name of worship does not mean God will accept it (cf. Mt. 7:21-29). We must worship both "in spirit and truth" doing "all in the name of the Lord (John 4:24; Col. 3:17).

I cannot pass judgment upon you, Moselle. I can only say that the New Testament does not authorize many things practiced today, instrumental music being but one of them. Let me respond to your question with a question: are you so absolutely convinced that instrumental music is pleasing to God so that you will wager your soul's eternal destination over it?

Mark
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Moselle
Moselle

June 26th, 2003, 1:46 pm #40

Mark:

I was referring to the point that you made, when I said that it didn't "count." There again goes my little bite of sarcasm that I need to get rid of- and probably doesn't come across on a computer screen.
:-)

As to my eternal salvation... I am sure, 100% that I am saved and going to heaven. What you've just given me is the red fish argument... "You can't be sure you're right, so why don't you just join up with us?" Well I AM SURE THAT I AM SAVED!!! I am not sure I'm right on the musical instrument issue, because there is NO CLEAR CUT STATEMENT CONDONING OR CONDEMNING THEM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. It does not say in ANY of Paul's letters or Jesus' instructions, "Do not use musical instruments when you join together, But rather praise the Lord with your mouth only." If it said anything remotely close to that, I'd agree with you, and leave my church. My church has shown me Christian love. They preach the gospel of salvation. I am a part of a family who loves me. Mark- I'm going to heaven. I'm so sure of this that yes, I would risk hearing musical instruments in worship. Because God hears praise, and he loves it.

Now, since this is the last day that I'm posting (you can find my reasons in a post under the topic I started), I would like to say goodbye and good luck to all of you. I will still check in occasionally to read, but mostly to check on what prayer needs exist. I need to get ready for work, so y'all have a good day...

Love in Christ... MOSELLE
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