Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

April 10th, 2003, 5:15 pm #11

Donnie,

I’ve known you at a distance for about 18 months. I’ve spoken with you face to face on a few occasions. I’ve always been cordial and polite to you. I’ve offered to study with you to find the truth in God’s Word, but you have chosen not to do that. Your anger with Keith Lancaster and his role at Madison seems to have consumed you. This last post is evidence of how the devil has distorted your mind and heart. You have chosen the scripture. Now let it speak to your heart. Here it is in its entirety in a basic English translation. Feel free to use any translation including the original Greek if you choose. The message is the same. The words in “UPPERCASE ARE FOR EMPHASIS.”

Eph 4:1 I, a prisoner in the Lord, encourage you to live the kind of life which proves that God has called you.
EPH 4:2 BE HUMBLE AND GENTLE IN EVERY WAY. BE PATIENT WITH EACH OTHER AND LOVINGLY ACCEPT EACH OTHER.
EPH 4:3 THROUGH THE PEACE THAT TIES YOU TOGETHER, DO YOUR BEST TO MAINTAIN THE UNITY THAT THE SPIRIT GIVES.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit. In the same way you were called to share one hope.
Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything.
Eph 4:7 God's favor has been given to each of us. It was measured out to us by Christ who gave it.
Eph 4:8 That's why the Scriptures say: "When he went to the highest place, he took captive those who had captured us and gave gifts to people."
Eph 4:9 Now what does it mean that he went up except that he also had gone down to the lowest parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 The one who had gone down also went up above all the heavens so that he fills everything.
Eph 4:11 He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church.
EPH 4:12 THEIR PURPOSE IS TO PREPARE GOD'S PEOPLE, TO SERVE, AND TO BUILD UP THE BODY OF CHRIST.
EPH 4:13 THIS IS TO CONTINUE UNTIL ALL OF US ARE UNITED IN OUR FAITH AND IN OUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT GOD'S SON, UNTIL WE BECOME MATURE, UNTIL WE MEASURE UP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE STANDARD.
EPH 4:14 THEN WE WILL NO LONGER BE LITTLE CHILDREN, TOSSED AND CARRIED ABOUT BY ALL KINDS OF TEACHINGS THAT CHANGE LIKE THE WIND. WE WILL NO LONGER BE INFLUENCED BY PEOPLE WHO USE CUNNING AND CLEVER STRATEGIES TO LEAD US ASTRAY.
EPH 4:15 INSTEAD, AS WE LOVINGLY SPEAK THE TRUTH, WE WILL GROW UP COMPLETELY IN OUR RELATIONSHIP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE HEAD.
EPH 4:16 HE MAKES THE WHOLE BODY FIT TOGETHER AND UNITES IT THROUGH THE SUPPORT OF EVERY JOINT. AS EACH AND EVERY PART DOES ITS JOB, HE MAKES THE BODY GROW SO THAT IT BUILDS ITSELF UP IN LOVE.
EPH 4:17 SO I TELL YOU AND ENCOURAGE YOU IN THE LORD'S NAME NOT TO LIVE ANY LONGER LIKE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. THEIR MINDS ARE SET ON WORTHLESS THINGS.
EPH 4:18 THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE DARK. THEY ARE EXCLUDED FROM THE LIFE THAT GOD APPROVES OF BECAUSE OF THEIR IGNORANCE AND STUBBORNNESS.
Eph 4:19 Since they no longer have any sense of shame, they have become promiscuous. They practice every kind of sexual perversion with a constant desire for more.
Eph 4:20 But that is not what you learned from Christ's teachings.
Eph 4:21 You have certainly heard his message and have been taught his ways. The truth is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught to change the way you were living. The person you used to be will ruin you through desires that deceive you.
EPH 4:23 HOWEVER, YOU WERE TAUGHT TO HAVE A NEW ATTITUDE.
RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY. EPH 4:24 YOU WERE ALSO TAUGHT TO BECOME A NEW PERSON CREATED TO BE LIKE GOD, TRULY
EPH 4:25 SO THEN, GET RID OF LIES. SPEAK THE TRUTH TO EACH OTHER, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL MEMBERS OF THE SAME BODY.
EPH 4:26 BE ANGRY WITHOUT SINNING. DON'T GO TO BED ANGRY.
EPH 4:27 DON'T GIVE THE DEVIL ANY OPPORTUNITY TO WORK.
Eph 4:28 Thieves must quit stealing and, instead, they must work hard. They should do something good with their hands so that they'll have something to share with those in need.
EPH 4:29 DON'T SAY ANYTHING THAT WOULD HURT ANOTHER PERSON. INSTEAD, SPEAK ONLY WHAT IS GOOD SO THAT YOU CAN GIVE HELP WHEREVER IT IS NEEDED. THAT WAY, WHAT YOU SAY WILL HELP THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.
EPH 4:30 DON'T GIVE GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT ANY REASON TO BE UPSET WITH YOU. HE HAS PUT HIS SEAL ON YOU FOR THE DAY YOU WILL BE SET FREE FROM THE WORLD OF SIN.
EPH 4:31 GET RID OF YOUR BITTERNESS, HOT TEMPERS, ANGER, LOUD QUARRELING, CURSING, AND HATRED.
EPH 4:32 BE KIND TO EACH OTHER, SYMPATHETIC, FORGIVING EACH OTHER AS GOD HAS FORGIVEN YOU THROUGH CHRIST.

Donnie, I pray that God will deliver you from your torment. I pray that He will open your eyes and reveal to you how you can serve Him and Him only. I pray that He will bless you richly with opportunities to serve Him and wisdom to discern what opportunity truly looks like. I pray that you will come to Him daily as an empty vessel for His use. I pray that you will come with no preconceived ideas of what God wants from you today. Just be available to serve Him with every fiber of your being.

Your brother in Christ,

Chuck Sonn
Chucky, Donnie just told you that SOMEONE at A CAPPELLA is apparently LYING about the membership to BOOTSTRAP his own "ministry" to teach others how to destroy a church. Why not address A Cappella (the Pope's boys) and ask them to cease and desist. They PROSPER only when they can deny their GROWTH RATE.

If some elder person tells the paper that you have a membership of 5,000 and lost only 50 why does that make Donnie "BESIDE HIMSELF?"

If the TEAM began in 1998 with 3000 and others count about half that many then is THAT speaking the truth in love?

You quote all of those passages which SHOULD be quoted to YOU GUYS who VIOLATED EVERY ONE OF THEM. Your songs STILL don't "speak the truth" in any sense.

God ordained LEADERS--not to sing and clap and make love to God--to prepare people for MINISTRY.

UNDER LYNN ANDERSON AND SHELLY YOU LEARN HOW TO "BLOW THE WINDS OF CHANGE" TO CONVERT THE CHURCH INTO A THEATER FOR UNHOLY ENTERTAINMENT. HOWEVER, IN CONTEXT,PAUL SAID:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the SLIGHT of men, and CUNNING CRAFTINESS whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Don't tell the world that they have to preach in love to those who LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE. Jesus gave us permission to RESIST thieves.

JESUS CALLED THEM THE SEED OF VIPERS, CHILDRIN OF THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL. Chucky says "Don't rock da boat." Now, while you FIGHT OFF the cunning craftsmen with one hand DON'T FORGET to:

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the HEAD, even Christ:

Paul is NOT speaking to those CUNNING serpent people but to the ASSEMBLY. He says here exactly what he will say in the NEXT chapter. Paul said that BEFORE they were INVOLVED IN what DONNIE is defining:

4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful LUSTS;

4:23 And be RENEWED in the SPIRIT of your MIND;

WHY? Why that is the Most Holy Place where we meet God ONE AT A TIME. You cannot do that by RENEWING your CLAQUE TEAM about when and how to BODY DRUM. You learn that from VOODOO.

4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true HOLINESS.

JESUS SAID THAT THE CLERGY WERE LIARS AND SONS OF THE DEVIL. WHY? WHY BECAUSE "They Speak ON THEIR OWN." That is, they just MAKE UP songs and sermons. But, Paul said:

4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak EVERY man TRUTH with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

THAT ELEMINATES SELF-SPEAK as LYING AND IT MAKES impossible upbuilding. EDIFICATION DEPEND ON "EVERY MAN WITH HIS NEIGHBORS." OTHERWISE YOU HAVE "RESPECT OF PERSONS" AND WORSHIP "TALENT."

WHY IS DRUNK ON IGNORANCE BETTER THAN DRUNK ON WINE?

5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

It is SPIRIT speaking ONLY if it is the WORDS OF CHRIST which are "spirit and life." You guys are SPEAKING the spirit of the PERFORMING ARTS and not of Christ.

5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

IF YOU CAN READ THEN "MAKING MELODY IN THE HEART" cannot mean MAKE HARMONY IN YOUR NERVE ENDINGS.

Jesus said that worship is COUNTED only if it is IN SPIRIT. This is THE PLACE of the human mind and NO SINGER OF LOVE SONGS CAN GO THERE.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Co.3:18

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;

----but, by manifestation of the TRUTH, commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2

------------
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17

Praying ALWAYS with all prayer and supplication IN the SPIRIT, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Eph 6:18

For we are the circumcision, which
---worship God IN the SPIRIT
---and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
-----and have no confidence IN the FLESH. Philippians 3:3

SPIRIT IS CONTRASTED WITH FLESH. "Holy rolling" is NOT contrasted with the FLESH.

Judaism (musical sacrificers), Tithing etc. is trying to worship IN THE FLESH.

God ONLY ACCEPTS worship IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT but your TEAMSTERS are trying to CUNNINGLY STIR UP THE FLESH.

You CANNOT worship in THE SPIRIT by stroking your body.

DONNIE is speaking the truth in LOVE. Why else would he fool with a totally PERVERTED system of false worship?

You guys HAVE TO HATE the widows to run them off and steal their church houses. You HAVE to hate people to make worship into a MASSAGE PARLOR used to FIRE UP the lust of the flesh ABSOLUTELY PROVEN by the singy clapping and the ABSOLUTE inability to see who DELIBERATELY SOWED DISCORD. Doubt that? Don't. The Andersonian or Hegeling Dialectic CONFESSES to pushing the church to the BRINK in order to make it change.

And what is the PRODUCT of this NEOISM: Why, little children and women RULE OVER YOU and make you sing and clap.

Don't bite, Donnie, you are doing just what JESUS did and they LOVED Him to Death. And you are doing just what Paul did and they CALLED HIM MAD.

Ken Sublett
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John Paul George Jr
John Paul George Jr

April 10th, 2003, 5:31 pm #12

Ken why don't you just give it another try on the hamster wheel as you keep spinning and turning in all sorts of directions? FYI Ken and the rest of you who view this site. In reference to the acappella website the information regarding the Madison Church of Christ and its membership hasn't been updated in years. If you are so concerned or that technical about numbers call the church office and find out for yourself.

John Paul George, Jr
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Eddie
Eddie

April 10th, 2003, 6:09 pm #13

Chuck,

With little amount of time that I have, let me respond to your defense of this contemporary CONCEPT of “WORSHIP LEADER,” which in itself is a usurpation of the authority of Christ. Hopefully, I will have more time to continue this discourse soon. Above all, let me assure you that I have the full confidence in what the Holy Scripture teaches, and, yes, as a soldier of Christ, I detest it when known and prominent teachers and leaders compromise and twist the truth to further their agenda and popularity and pride and business endeavors. I have nothing against Keith Lancaster as a human being. In fact, I “voted” for him a million times when a “song leader” was about to be selected at the time. There was not the slightest hint then as to which direction he was taking the Madison body. Just to make the story short, you know what have been the developments in recent months.

You, Chuck, and others are in this dream world and convinced that the eventual upheaval at Madison did not occur as a result of the gradual and subtle culture-driven church growth scheme endorsed and implemented by the church’s leadership. You need to stop denying the FACT that 90% of church conflicts evolves and is due to worship issues. And you and Keith Lancaster and the WORSHIP committee of Keith and [ONLY ONE OF several elders] Buck Dozier … are not willing to give it a try resorting to the WORKABLE worship format of the past -– NO WORSHIP LEADER, NO MUSICIANS (KEITH’S PRAISE TEAM OR CHOIR) -– just plain congregational singing at its best efforts.

To start with, let me just state these few statements as they relate to the entire fourth chapter of Ephesians, which I strongly believe in, but which Keith Lancaster needs to look at more deeply:

--- HUMILITY and LOVINGLY ACCEPTING EACH OTHER. As much as your WORSHIP LEADER is “sincerely” stating, “give all the praise to God and not to me,” he continues to be full of pride and ego as a masterful musician of musicians. It’s time he accepts and admits the fact that the introduction of this “contemporary worship format” as an alternative has driven away many of his brethren in Christ. Does he really believe this “lovingly accepting each other” bit, or is he more concerned about continuing to advertise his musical talent?

--- MAINTAINING THE UNITY THAT THE SPIRIT GIVES. There may be UNION in having separate and different worship formats –- “TRADITIONAL” and “CONTEMPORARY” … but there is definitely not “UNITY OF THE SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE.” There is no UNITY in DIVERSITY!!!

--- GAVE US “WORSHIP LEADERS.” Nowhere to be found! “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors [elders] and teachers. (Ephesians 4:11, KJV) Jesus, the mediator and High Priest, is the ONLY worship leader and the only one to “CALL us to worship.” Jesus said so, in our worship of the Father in heaven, in John 4:21, 23-24: “Jesus saith … But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

--- MEASURE UP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE STANDARD. Indeed! Indeed! Keith’s and the PRAISE TEAM’s performances are NOT THE STANDARD.

--- “TOSSED AND CARRIED ABOUT BY ALL KINDS OF TEACHINGS THAT CHANGE LIKE THE WIND [definitely like 'navigating the winds of CHANGE']. WE WILL NO LONGER BE INFLUENCED BY PEOPLE [church leaders who have succumbed] WHO USE CUNNING AND CLEVER STRATEGIES TO LEAD US ASTRAY." Self-explanatory, isn’t it?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TO BE CONTINUED …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz
Donnie,
You wrote:
"And you and Keith Lancaster and the WORSHIP committee of Keith and [ONLY ONE OF several elders] Buck Dozier … are not willing to give it a try resorting to the WORKABLE worship format of the past -– NO WORSHIP LEADER, NO MUSICIANS (KEITH’S PRAISE TEAM OR CHOIR) -– just plain congregational singing at its best efforts."

It is my opinion, if you will attend and report on the 8am service, you will have to retract this statement.

It is also my belief, you have NEVER discussed these issues with Buck or Keith.

RO 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

RO 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

1CO 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother goes to law against another--and this in front of unbelievers!

COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?


9 Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!


15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

Donnie, is there any slight possibility that any of this applies to you?


Eddie
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Eddie
Eddie

April 10th, 2003, 6:19 pm #14

Chucky, Donnie just told you that SOMEONE at A CAPPELLA is apparently LYING about the membership to BOOTSTRAP his own "ministry" to teach others how to destroy a church. Why not address A Cappella (the Pope's boys) and ask them to cease and desist. They PROSPER only when they can deny their GROWTH RATE.

If some elder person tells the paper that you have a membership of 5,000 and lost only 50 why does that make Donnie "BESIDE HIMSELF?"

If the TEAM began in 1998 with 3000 and others count about half that many then is THAT speaking the truth in love?

You quote all of those passages which SHOULD be quoted to YOU GUYS who VIOLATED EVERY ONE OF THEM. Your songs STILL don't "speak the truth" in any sense.

God ordained LEADERS--not to sing and clap and make love to God--to prepare people for MINISTRY.

UNDER LYNN ANDERSON AND SHELLY YOU LEARN HOW TO "BLOW THE WINDS OF CHANGE" TO CONVERT THE CHURCH INTO A THEATER FOR UNHOLY ENTERTAINMENT. HOWEVER, IN CONTEXT,PAUL SAID:

Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the SLIGHT of men, and CUNNING CRAFTINESS whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Don't tell the world that they have to preach in love to those who LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE. Jesus gave us permission to RESIST thieves.

JESUS CALLED THEM THE SEED OF VIPERS, CHILDRIN OF THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL. Chucky says "Don't rock da boat." Now, while you FIGHT OFF the cunning craftsmen with one hand DON'T FORGET to:

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the HEAD, even Christ:

Paul is NOT speaking to those CUNNING serpent people but to the ASSEMBLY. He says here exactly what he will say in the NEXT chapter. Paul said that BEFORE they were INVOLVED IN what DONNIE is defining:

4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful LUSTS;

4:23 And be RENEWED in the SPIRIT of your MIND;

WHY? Why that is the Most Holy Place where we meet God ONE AT A TIME. You cannot do that by RENEWING your CLAQUE TEAM about when and how to BODY DRUM. You learn that from VOODOO.

4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true HOLINESS.

JESUS SAID THAT THE CLERGY WERE LIARS AND SONS OF THE DEVIL. WHY? WHY BECAUSE "They Speak ON THEIR OWN." That is, they just MAKE UP songs and sermons. But, Paul said:

4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak EVERY man TRUTH with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

THAT ELEMINATES SELF-SPEAK as LYING AND IT MAKES impossible upbuilding. EDIFICATION DEPEND ON "EVERY MAN WITH HIS NEIGHBORS." OTHERWISE YOU HAVE "RESPECT OF PERSONS" AND WORSHIP "TALENT."

WHY IS DRUNK ON IGNORANCE BETTER THAN DRUNK ON WINE?

5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

It is SPIRIT speaking ONLY if it is the WORDS OF CHRIST which are "spirit and life." You guys are SPEAKING the spirit of the PERFORMING ARTS and not of Christ.

5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

IF YOU CAN READ THEN "MAKING MELODY IN THE HEART" cannot mean MAKE HARMONY IN YOUR NERVE ENDINGS.

Jesus said that worship is COUNTED only if it is IN SPIRIT. This is THE PLACE of the human mind and NO SINGER OF LOVE SONGS CAN GO THERE.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Co.3:18

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;

----but, by manifestation of the TRUTH, commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2

------------
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17

Praying ALWAYS with all prayer and supplication IN the SPIRIT, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Eph 6:18

For we are the circumcision, which
---worship God IN the SPIRIT
---and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
-----and have no confidence IN the FLESH. Philippians 3:3

SPIRIT IS CONTRASTED WITH FLESH. "Holy rolling" is NOT contrasted with the FLESH.

Judaism (musical sacrificers), Tithing etc. is trying to worship IN THE FLESH.

God ONLY ACCEPTS worship IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT but your TEAMSTERS are trying to CUNNINGLY STIR UP THE FLESH.

You CANNOT worship in THE SPIRIT by stroking your body.

DONNIE is speaking the truth in LOVE. Why else would he fool with a totally PERVERTED system of false worship?

You guys HAVE TO HATE the widows to run them off and steal their church houses. You HAVE to hate people to make worship into a MASSAGE PARLOR used to FIRE UP the lust of the flesh ABSOLUTELY PROVEN by the singy clapping and the ABSOLUTE inability to see who DELIBERATELY SOWED DISCORD. Doubt that? Don't. The Andersonian or Hegeling Dialectic CONFESSES to pushing the church to the BRINK in order to make it change.

And what is the PRODUCT of this NEOISM: Why, little children and women RULE OVER YOU and make you sing and clap.

Don't bite, Donnie, you are doing just what JESUS did and they LOVED Him to Death. And you are doing just what Paul did and they CALLED HIM MAD.

Ken Sublett
Ken,

You wrote: "to make worship into a MASSAGE PARLOR"

What is your definition of a massage parlor, and how does it apply to what YOU HAVE NOT SEEN?? Please speak English.

Eddie
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Chuck Sonn
Chuck Sonn

April 10th, 2003, 6:28 pm #15

Chuck,

With little amount of time that I have, let me respond to your defense of this contemporary CONCEPT of “WORSHIP LEADER,” which in itself is a usurpation of the authority of Christ. Hopefully, I will have more time to continue this discourse soon. Above all, let me assure you that I have the full confidence in what the Holy Scripture teaches, and, yes, as a soldier of Christ, I detest it when known and prominent teachers and leaders compromise and twist the truth to further their agenda and popularity and pride and business endeavors. I have nothing against Keith Lancaster as a human being. In fact, I “voted” for him a million times when a “song leader” was about to be selected at the time. There was not the slightest hint then as to which direction he was taking the Madison body. Just to make the story short, you know what have been the developments in recent months.

You, Chuck, and others are in this dream world and convinced that the eventual upheaval at Madison did not occur as a result of the gradual and subtle culture-driven church growth scheme endorsed and implemented by the church’s leadership. You need to stop denying the FACT that 90% of church conflicts evolves and is due to worship issues. And you and Keith Lancaster and the WORSHIP committee of Keith and [ONLY ONE OF several elders] Buck Dozier … are not willing to give it a try resorting to the WORKABLE worship format of the past -– NO WORSHIP LEADER, NO MUSICIANS (KEITH’S PRAISE TEAM OR CHOIR) -– just plain congregational singing at its best efforts.

To start with, let me just state these few statements as they relate to the entire fourth chapter of Ephesians, which I strongly believe in, but which Keith Lancaster needs to look at more deeply:

--- HUMILITY and LOVINGLY ACCEPTING EACH OTHER. As much as your WORSHIP LEADER is “sincerely” stating, “give all the praise to God and not to me,” he continues to be full of pride and ego as a masterful musician of musicians. It’s time he accepts and admits the fact that the introduction of this “contemporary worship format” as an alternative has driven away many of his brethren in Christ. Does he really believe this “lovingly accepting each other” bit, or is he more concerned about continuing to advertise his musical talent?

--- MAINTAINING THE UNITY THAT THE SPIRIT GIVES. There may be UNION in having separate and different worship formats –- “TRADITIONAL” and “CONTEMPORARY” … but there is definitely not “UNITY OF THE SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE.” There is no UNITY in DIVERSITY!!!

--- GAVE US “WORSHIP LEADERS.” Nowhere to be found! “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors [elders] and teachers. (Ephesians 4:11, KJV) Jesus, the mediator and High Priest, is the ONLY worship leader and the only one to “CALL us to worship.” Jesus said so, in our worship of the Father in heaven, in John 4:21, 23-24: “Jesus saith … But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

--- MEASURE UP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE STANDARD. Indeed! Indeed! Keith’s and the PRAISE TEAM’s performances are NOT THE STANDARD.

--- “TOSSED AND CARRIED ABOUT BY ALL KINDS OF TEACHINGS THAT CHANGE LIKE THE WIND [definitely like 'navigating the winds of CHANGE']. WE WILL NO LONGER BE INFLUENCED BY PEOPLE [church leaders who have succumbed] WHO USE CUNNING AND CLEVER STRATEGIES TO LEAD US ASTRAY." Self-explanatory, isn’t it?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TO BE CONTINUED …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz
Donnie,

I look forward to the rest of your response.

Ken,

No response warranted.

Chuck
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

April 10th, 2003, 7:12 pm #16

Ken,

You wrote: "to make worship into a MASSAGE PARLOR"

What is your definition of a massage parlor, and how does it apply to what YOU HAVE NOT SEEN?? Please speak English.

Eddie
I have told you over and over and you haven't refuted it that:

Music in a "worship" sense had two Biblical purposes (don't tell me about David strumming to his sheep):

First: The MUSICAL WARRIOR LEVITES were under the King and Commanders of the army and NEVER under the priests were OUTSIDE the Holy Place as a type of the church.

Their SERVICE was "hard bondage" from a word with the same meaning as Abaddon or Apollyon. Because God had TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST as a result of the PERVERTED musicl idolatry at Mount Sinai and later demanding a human king so that they could worship like the nations, their service was quite identical to that of Canaan or Babylon.

That MUSICAL NOISE was exorcism of the bad demons and trying to call the GOOD GODS to the feast. Catholics therefore organized with both Precentors and EXORCISTS.

They were paying for their own sins and MOCKING prophetically Lord Jesus Christ. The Musical Levites again were prophesied to MOCK Jesus. They PIPED trying to get Him into the homosexual Dionysus song and dance.

The only MUSICIANS who entered into the Holy Places even in the vilest paganism was in Jerusalem where Zeus and Dionysus were "worshiped" in the Gymnasiums where they had to SET GUARDS to stiffle the homosexuality. They actually performed sexuality and homosexuality in temples dedicated to Zeus or Dionysus. That PLAGUE made Jerusalem so vile that Jesus spoke in parables to HIDE the gospel from them.

During many periods the Jews tolerated SINGERS which name roots to prostitutes and instrumentalists (normally a female domain) which roots to SODOMITES around the Temple.

SECOND: I told you that in pagan religions THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITON but that singers and musicians were of the LOWER CLASSES who could be abused as the final ACT OF WORSHIP (Re Wimber, Vineyard) just before paying your bill (something like tithing.)

MODERN SCHOLARS still agree with the documents of the Ancient Near East, the Biblical examples of "music," the church Fathers: THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION which does not give credit to SATAN (Lucifer) for choirs and instrumentalists which ALWAYS included the qedeshot or "holy prostitutes."

Nimrod in Babylon, contemporary musicians, scientists and musicologists RECOGNIZE that "music" produces the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT OR SEXUALITY. Music injects endorphins or natural morphine. Once you are addicted, the HIGH which seems natural to you seems UNNATURAL to Donnie and the chased-away half of your crowd.

I watched a Mormon girl who had never tasted Caffein just about go into insanity when someone gave her just one APC.

THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE WHICH YOU CAN USE TO DEFEND BRINGING PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS AND ACTORS TO "STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE" PRETENDING TO BE MEDIATORS OR IN RUBEL SHELLY'S BORROWED WORDS: "BRING YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD."

I HEAR THE CLAPPY SONGS AS EXPLICITELY SEXUAL IN CONTENT.

THE CLAPPING AND BODY WORSHIP MAKES THE DIAGNOSIS CERTAIN TO ME, TO DONNIE AND I SUSPECT ABOUT HALF OF YOUR CONGREGATION YOU HAVE DISCORDED AND SCATTERED.

History knows it in pagan religions as SEXPERIENCE and not worship which happens ONLY in your HUMAN SPIRIT as the ONLY place God meets you. Leviticla musicians who attempted to go with the priests into the Holy Place as type of the church of Christ, or into the Most Holy Place a the PLACE where God meets a priest ONE AT A TIME would have been executed.

The MOTHER, Carol Wimber as the mother of the NEW STYLE HYMNALS insists that the next to last ACT OF WORSHIP is a music-induced CLIMACTIC expreience with God. The last ACT is giving of substance-tithing.

Now, if you cannot find any Biblically or historical evidence to refute 100% of the evidence, I claim that you have USED the PERSONA of Musical Performers and that PERSONA is universally that of sexuality.

You're next.

Ken Sublett
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 10th, 2003, 7:38 pm #17

Donnie,
You wrote:
"And you and Keith Lancaster and the WORSHIP committee of Keith and [ONLY ONE OF several elders] Buck Dozier … are not willing to give it a try resorting to the WORKABLE worship format of the past -– NO WORSHIP LEADER, NO MUSICIANS (KEITH’S PRAISE TEAM OR CHOIR) -– just plain congregational singing at its best efforts."

It is my opinion, if you will attend and report on the 8am service, you will have to retract this statement.

It is also my belief, you have NEVER discussed these issues with Buck or Keith.

RO 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

RO 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

1CO 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother goes to law against another--and this in front of unbelievers!

COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?


9 Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!


15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

Donnie, is there any slight possibility that any of this applies to you?


Eddie
Eddie:

So, what about the early service? The last time I attended the 8 a.m. service, your WORSHIP LEADER was there, just as busy displaying MUSICAL WORSHIP talent to perfection. While his musicians weren’t sitting in front, they were interspersed in the crowd to give the appearance of LESS performance. (By the way, the attendance on March 30th was 520. This past Sunday, April 6th, the attendance was 467. Let’s just say that it was because of the time change -- some of the senior saints at the early assembly perhaps had a memory lapse or couldn’t “get up” early. In reality, it looks like some members are still being driven away.)

I’m sorry to disappoint you, Eddie, that regardless of circumstances, the truth still rises to the top. I doubt seriously that I need to retract my statement. Truths are not retractable. The verses you quoted should be familiar to and practiced by all Christians, including elders and even non-ordained, unauthorized “WORSHIP LEADERS.” In regard to discussing the issues on worship, the proper thing to do is for ALL ELDERS (NOT JUST ONE BUCK) to be involved in this CORE program. Then, the outcome or process is then implemented.

You certainly can help with this matter: why don’t you make a special effort to bring up all the verses that you just quoted to the entire leadership? It badly needs all these admonitions before some more members decide to leave the fellowship!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 10th, 2003, 8:05 pm #18

Donnie,

I look forward to the rest of your response.

Ken,

No response warranted.

Chuck
Chuck,

Don’t you think there’s enough material that you can respond to … for a start? If I were you I wouldn’t let an opportunity go by.

Donnie
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 10th, 2003, 8:13 pm #19

Ken why don't you just give it another try on the hamster wheel as you keep spinning and turning in all sorts of directions? FYI Ken and the rest of you who view this site. In reference to the acappella website the information regarding the Madison Church of Christ and its membership hasn't been updated in years. If you are so concerned or that technical about numbers call the church office and find out for yourself.

John Paul George, Jr
John Paul:

Well, two things: (1) We’re just curious about how many more senior saints are being driven away from the fellowship; (2) We’re just curious as to the effectiveness of the Community Church crusade in bringing precious souls to Christ from outside the “church” box, using its culture-driven for church growth scheme.

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Donnie Cruz
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 10th, 2003, 8:28 pm #20

Ken,

You wrote: "to make worship into a MASSAGE PARLOR"

What is your definition of a massage parlor, and how does it apply to what YOU HAVE NOT SEEN?? Please speak English.

Eddie
Eddie:

Simple! It’s the same way you would define “massage parlor.” Simply that! As to what Ken has NOT SEEN, that’s really not the issue. It’s all a matter of faith. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN. By faith Noah, being warned of God of THINGS NOT SEEN as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.” (Hebrews 11:1,7)

Sorry, Eddie. Ken walks by faith, and not by sight. “For we walk by faith, not by sight.” (II Corinthians 5:7)

Donnie
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