GCM Forum: Today Mere Nick and Norton

Racnor
Racnor

September 28th, 2012, 12:12 am #61

By Wayne Jackson

Jude refers to one of the Old Testament patriarchs when he says: Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones (v. 14).

A passage quite similar to this is found in the apocryphal Book of Enoch. Some have suggested that Jude quoted his prophecy from this source and thus the Book of Enoch was inspired. Others allege that this quotation discredits Jude as an inspired writer. Neither inference is warranted.

Even if Jude had quoted from the Book of Enoch, that would not imply the books inspiration any more than Pauls quotation from a pagan poet would demand inspiration for that source (cf. Acts 17:28). Furthermore, quotations from a secular source, simply to make an ad hominem point, do not reflect upon the divine origin of a biblical book (cf. Titus 1:12).

Where did Jude get his quotation? It is useless to speculate for the record does not say. He may have received it directly from the Spirit. He may have quoted from some earlier source to which the writer of the Book of Enoch also had access. No conclusion can be drawn in the absence of more precise information.

Certainly the passage does not demand the conclusion that Jude took his quotation from the Book of Enoch, suggesting the apocryphal document was inspired of God. Whatever the immediate source, ultimately Jude quoted prophecy.

Make a marginal note: No proof that this quotation is from Book of Enoch.

http://www.christiancourier.com/article ... y-of-enoch
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B
B

September 28th, 2012, 1:19 am #62

Enoch's prophecy about God as quoted by Jude and the passage from the Book of Enoch are so similar as to be virtually identical. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and walks like a duck...

People assume that the decisions mortal men made centuries ago were sufficient to complete the biblical canon. But just suppose the canon is NOT complete.

Would people's faith be shattered to pieces if they learned that the Book of Enoch was finally found to be a completely inspired work and fully deserved a place within the biblical canon? Or would people pull the ole ostrich stunt and stick their heads in the sand?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 28th, 2012, 1:30 am #63

"It should be SIMPLE for discerning Christians to realize that God need not list everything conceivable that violates His commands."



Name any sin that doesn't fall under a command of God, whether that be a "you will/shall" or "you will not/shall not" command.

Reeling him in here......

How about the cocaine usage? Good place to start?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I agree with the statement you quoted. Since you disagree, tell us why.

Here's what we need from you: Provide us a COMPLETE list of ALL the sins mentioned in the Bible. (Take your time.)[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 28th, 2012, 1:42 am #64

Grace Centered Magazine Forum is devoted to trying to defeat efforts like Concerned Members and ALL of the tenets which makes The Church of Christ the Only known Apostolic Church: that which is defended by all of church history.

http://www.piney.com/GraceCenteredReview.html

.They are Post-Nicene Trinitarians (LU and tritheism)
.They are hostile to any Scripture quoted defending Baptism.
.They are hostile to any effort to prove that there can be NO instrumental MARKS in a church of Christ.
.They are hostile to what they call "legalism" when "grace" gives them permissive to be LEGALISTIC: seeking to aid God in what they call worship.
.They are hostile to any quotation of passages of Scripture IN CONTEXT.

Now, the discussion of the mansions in the House of God as being the various teachings of the Apostles. We will show that the mansions in a Church of Christ are REST STATIONS to get in out of the LADED BURDEN (music) imposed by the burden-laders known as PARASITES in their pattern from the not-commanded Sacrificial system.








Wayne Jackson undoubtedly thinks that the Scribal record of the Jacob-Cursed and God-abandoned Civil Monarchy are inspired. A fragment of Enoch was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls: older by centuries of any of the New Testament. People badmouth Enoch because they cannot read Genesis as a warning to fallen Israel of the same facts.

Tertullian on Women and Fallen Angels

http://www.piney.com//FathEnochTertu.html#P293_59023

Chapter III.-Concerning the Genuineness of "The Prophecy of Enoch."

I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, [Comp. de Idol., c. iv.] which has assigned this order (of action) to angels,

is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either.
I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things.


If that is the reason (for rejecting it), let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; [See Gen. v. 21, 25, 28, 29.] and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather's "grace in the sight of God," [Comp. Gen. vi. 8.] and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity.

Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of (his) preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition (of things) made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit's inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired. [See 2 Tim. iii. 16.]

By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, just like all the other (portions) nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive.

To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude. [See Jude 14, 15.]

Chapter IV.-Waiving the Question of the Authors, Tertullian Proposes to Consider the Things on Their Own Merits.

Grant now that no mark of pre-condemnation has been branded on womanly pomp by the (fact of the) fate of its authors let nothing be imputed to those angels besides their repudiation of heaven and (their) carnal marriage: let us examine the qualities of the things themselves, in order that we may detect the purposes also for which they are eagerly desired.

Female habit carries with it a twofold idea-dress and ornament. By "dress" we mean what they call "womanly gracing; " [Mundum muliebrem. Comp. Liv. xxxiv. 7.] by "ornament," what it is suitable should be called "womanly disgracing."

Lucifer bisexual, came equipped with musical instrumentds king of tyre

The former is accounted (to consist) in gold, and silver, and gems, and garments; the latter in care of the hair, and of the skin, and of those parts of the body which attract the eye.

Against the one we lay the charge of ambition, against the other of prostitution; so that even from this early stage [Jam hinc; comp. ad. Ux., i. 1 ad init.and ad fin., and 8 ad fin.] (of our discussion) you may look forward and see what, out of (all) these, is suitable, handmaid of God, to your discipline, inasmuch as you are assessed on different principles (from other women),-those, namely, of humility and chastity.
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B
B

September 28th, 2012, 2:05 am #65

"It should be SIMPLE for discerning Christians to realize that God need not list everything conceivable that violates His commands."



Name any sin that doesn't fall under a command of God, whether that be a "you will/shall" or "you will not/shall not" command.

Reeling him in here......

How about the cocaine usage? Good place to start?
Dave doesn't seem to understand that God does not always specify everything by name, 1...2...3, that violates His directives. God also has general commands that take care of other issues that DO violate His directives.

For example, Dave brought up the cocaine issue (again). God doesn't need to list cocaine abuse or any other drug abuse as violating His directives, because a general command covers that:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are" (1 Cor. 3:16-17 KJV).

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (1 Cor. 6:19-20 KJV).

If you abuse your body in any form or fashion, you defile it; hence, you sin. Drug abuse, drunkenness, smoking, pornography, or similar acts harm the body and thus defile it. God does not need to say, "Thou shalt not abuse drugs, Thou shalt not smoke, Thou shalt not be drunk, Thou shalt not surf pornography" for those and similar acts to be sinful. His general command about being careful not to defile our bodies takes care of that.

In like manner, God in the New Testament need not say, "Thou shalt not have instrumental music," because He has already specifically directed us to use vocal music. The neither-add-to-nor-take-from command is a general command that, in the case of music, forbids us to have other kinds of music. We sin if we ADD other kinds of music for any reason.

Those who insist that, "You sin if you condemn instrumental music when God does not" conveniently ignore the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. Buy virtue of that command, God has already condemned the ADDITION of instrumental music. The sin lies in ADDING more to a command or TAKING AWAY from a command than what God specifies within that command. That's what the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command is all about. Yet the change agents gamble with their souls by ignoring it.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

September 28th, 2012, 2:41 am #66

Grace Centered Magazine Forum is devoted to trying to defeat efforts like Concerned Members and ALL of the tenets which makes The Church of Christ the Only known Apostolic Church: that which is defended by all of church history.

http://www.piney.com/GraceCenteredReview.html

.They are Post-Nicene Trinitarians (LU and tritheism)
.They are hostile to any Scripture quoted defending Baptism.
.They are hostile to any effort to prove that there can be NO instrumental MARKS in a church of Christ.
.They are hostile to what they call "legalism" when "grace" gives them permissive to be LEGALISTIC: seeking to aid God in what they call worship.
.They are hostile to any quotation of passages of Scripture IN CONTEXT.

Now, the discussion of the mansions in the House of God as being the various teachings of the Apostles. We will show that the mansions in a Church of Christ are REST STATIONS to get in out of the LADED BURDEN (music) imposed by the burden-laders known as PARASITES in their pattern from the not-commanded Sacrificial system.








God tells us GENERALLY to GO when it comes to the great commission. Meaning that we can go by foot, plane, internet, etc.
Same goes with singing. He says to sing. Playing an instrument to accompany that singing does NOT go against the command to sing. Playing an instrument to aid singing doesn't violate ANY of God's commands.

Finally....finally B. About the cocaine. I feel good about this. Do you remember when you were the one who suggested that 'God doesn't SPECIFICALLY tell us that cocaine is sinful?' You, William Crump, are a vivid example that people can change for the better.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 28th, 2012, 3:32 am #67

You need to do a bit of research about harmonic mixing: the instrumental noise LITERALLY causes what comes out of your mouth to be radically different

Next Sunday, grab your private parts and you can feel them being manipulated even by the loud PRAISE BANDS.

You didn't know that the praise singers are USING your body probably WITH your will. At least they should pay you something.

Corrupting the Word is in fact called "selling at wholesale" and the word also means PROSTITUTION. So, you see, a prostitute sells their body increasingly the hypocritic effeminate performance roles: Rhetoric, performance singing and using instruments (Ezekiel 33).
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 28th, 2012, 4:01 am #68

God tells us GENERALLY to GO when it comes to the great commission. Meaning that we can go by foot, plane, internet, etc.
Same goes with singing. He says to sing. Playing an instrument to accompany that singing does NOT go against the command to sing. Playing an instrument to aid singing doesn't violate ANY of God's commands.

Finally....finally B. About the cocaine. I feel good about this. Do you remember when you were the one who suggested that 'God doesn't SPECIFICALLY tell us that cocaine is sinful?' You, William Crump, are a vivid example that people can change for the better.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Question for you: The assembly in Acts 15 was with what one Japanese-manufactured car? (Answer at the end of this post.)

Your premise regarding the Great Commission in order to prove that music [and dancing] is worshipful is not only pretty weak but is also erroneous.

The commission was to GO and teach/preach the gospel.

That commission is still applicable today.

We [Christians] are to "let the word of Christ dwell in us richly." That was the directive -- not singing. Singing, reciting or speaking the word of truth is an effective means of "teaching and admonishing one another." Playing an inanimate, lifeless musical device does not accomplish that directive.[/color]

Answer: "Accord"
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B
B

September 28th, 2012, 12:03 pm #69

Dave is doing everything he can to avoid the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. He can try, but he'll never be able to escape it. He should simply accept that command and follow it. He would have a much more peaceful life.
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Racnor
Racnor

September 28th, 2012, 4:41 pm #70

It is with Enoch that the remarkable resemblances with Joseph Smith and Mormon history become disconcertingly clear. The major details of the legend are outlined as follows:

1. Enoch, seventh in the line of patriarchs from Adam, was 25 years old when he received his call and vision.

2. He was taken up in vision onto a hill called Moriah.

3. In vision he saw a cavern in a hill, a sacred vault in the bowels of the earth. The cavity was symbolized as being a container for sacred treasures, like an holy ark, and it had a lid on it.

4. In vision, Enoch perceived a shiny gold plate containing unknown engravings and symbols.

5. He recognized the letter "M" upon the gold plate, which designated the name of the hill.

6. He further saw the Sacred name of God, which had been lost to all mankind, and he was commissioned by Deity to preserve this knowledge.

7. He foresaw that a flood would come to destroy all mankind. Therefore, he felt it was his duty to preserve the Sacred Mystery.

8. He placed two pillars inside the hill:

a. One of marble upon which, written in Egyptian hieroglyphics, were found the historical events connected with the tower of Babel.

and

b. One of brass, which contained the history of creation and the Secret Mysteries. These records were placed in the hill along with the treasure of the gold plate.

9. This brass pillar had a metal ball on its top, within which were contained maps, and directions of the world and of the universe, and which also acted as a sort of oracle.

10. Enoch then placed a stone lid, or slab, over the cavity into the hill.

11. Enoch predicted that on the other side of the deluge an Israelitish descendant would discover anew the Sacred buried treasure.

12. As predicted after the flood, a great king, named Solomon, came to power and desired to build a Sacred house for the in-dwelling of the divine presence.

13. Solomon and his builders, the Masons, while building and excavating for the temple at Mt. Moriah, discovered the cavern and the sacred treasure.

14. After three attempts to obtain the treasure, they were finally successful. Those Masons were very rejoiceful upon receiving these preserved Mysteries.

15. But, three wicked men intervened and committed a horrible crime. They attempted to force one of the Masons, one of the faithful Masons who had discovered the treasure, Hiram Abif: or Hiram, the widow's son, to reveal the hiding (place) and the contents of the hidden treasure.

16. He would not reveal his knowledge and therefore they killed him.

17. While being slain, Hiram, with uplifted hands, cried out, "Oh Lord, My God, is there no help for the widow's son?" This has since become a general Masonic distress call.

18. Then three loyal Masons, seeking revenge, pursued the three evil ones.

19. One of the three faithful Masons overtook one of the archvillains. He was asleep with his sword, or knife, nearby.

20. The "Mason slew the villain with his own knife by cutting off his head.

21. In Masonic ceremonies, the words "strike off his head" were employed.

22. Also in Masonic ceremonies. In revolutionary France, the re-acting of the killing of this villain, the tyrant's name was King Phillippe le Bel. (Philip IV or the Fair who destroyed the Knights Templar. M. B. H.)

23. The loyal Mason was rewarded by King Solomon.

24. The recovered treasures then became part of the temple treasury. It consisted of the brass records, the gold plate, the metal ball, the breast plate and the urim and thummim.

Such is the Masonic legend of the Secret Doctrine, or the sacred treasure in the sacred hill, or the treasure of the widow's son.
The parallels of Joseph Smith and the history of Mormonism are so unmistakable, that to explain them only as coincidence would be ridiculous. Joseph Smith was named Enoch, even by God. He was 25 when he brought forth his Sacred record. His sacred record was buried in the hill by a main who had the initial "M". There were gold plates containing the mysteries of God. They were also in Egyptian hieroglyphics or some Egyptian form. There were brass plates, which also contained an account of the creation of the world. There was another record which contained an account of the tower of Babel. The cavity in the hill, and the hill and the cavity Joseph both saw in vision, was covered with a stone lid. The other treasures in the stone box were the breastplate, the urim and thummim, as well as the round metal ball which served as a director and was called the Liahona.
Joseph Smith also claimed to be an Israelite, and he too made several fruitless attempts at getting the treasure when he first saw it. Joseph Smith had three witnesses to the Book of Mormon and the record itself bears witness that an archvillain named Laban, or Laban [La Ban?], was thwarting the availability and accessibility of the sacred records, had his head cut off by his own sword. This prophet also built temples for the in-dwelling of God's spirit. Now these parallels, dramatic as they seem, still do not represent the strongest part of the story. All of these aspects of the legend seem transformed into the history of Joseph Smith, so much so that even it appears to be a kind of symbolic acting out of Masonic lore.
But there is a point in this drama where the action goes beyond metaphor and the symbol merges into a tragic reality. This has to do, of course, with the death of Hiram Abif in the legend and the martyrdom of Joseph Smith. In June Joseph Smith gave himself up to be imprisoned and on June 27, 1844, a mob stormed the little Carthage jail. Hyrum was killed instantly and John Taylor seriously wounded. Joseph Smith, Master Mason and widow's son, went to the window and with upraised hands, commenced giving the Masonic distress call to fraternal Masons who were present in the mob: "Oh, Lord, My God." He was unable to complete his plea and fell out of the window to his death.
How does a Mormon historian interpret Joseph Smith and the Masonic Enoch legend? The parallels demand an answer. Was Joseph Smith the fruition of Enoch's prophecy? Was this an extreme "grabbing on" by the Prophet? Or did mysterious and divine, even magical, forces attach themselves to him? Can anyone deny that Masonic influence on Joseph Smith and the Church, either before or after his personal Masonic membership? The evidence demands comments.
I have attempted to indicate that with regard to Mormonism and Masonry, there remains an abundance of that which is "new under the sun." I do not believe that the Nauvoo story can adequately be told without an inquiry into Masonry.
There are many questions which still demand the answers. I earnestly hope I have raised some questions. Perhaps I have answered a few. But if we, as Mormon historians, respond to these questions and myriads like them relative to Masonry in an ostrich-like fashion, with our heads buried in the traditional sand, then I submit: there never will be "any help for the widow's son."

******************************

Is "B's" head buried in the sand?


http://www.cephasministry.com/mormon_is ... _help.html
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