Frustrated! Stan's Comment

Frustrated! Stan's Comment

Mark F.
Mark F.

June 9th, 2006, 8:53 pm #1

MY HISTORY AND HERITAGE
I have grown up in the church and attended churches of Christ across this nation. My family has a heritage with the church to include preachers and elders. I have attended a church of Christ University and studied Bible from some of the great conservative christians.

Beyond heritage and upbringing, there is one key reason that I worship with Christians that meet under the name "church of Christ." It is because I have not found another group that tries so hard to search the Word and do what the bible says.

That being said, now that I am in my mid 30's, I am struggling with what practices that we hold to are tradition and heritage and which are truely based on scriptural example and command. I guess you could say I am one of those standing in the middle, nervously looking at the mega churches and wondering where they are going and, at the same time, fearfully looking at the acrid words that come from those who insist they have it all figured out!

THE MAIN POINT
!!! What frustrats me the most is how all this in-fighting keeps us from doing what God wants us to do, reaching the lost and helping each other grow closer to God. !!!

DISCUSSION/DIALOGE/JUDGEMENT
It is good to discuss the pros and cons of what kind of illustration we use in our bible classes. It is good to discuss the negatives and postitives of a certain author's thoughts. It is good to discuss what we are focusing on in our corporate worship, whether we are trying to please God or ourselves. There is reason to have this DISCUSSION/DIALOGUE. But the purpose of any real discussion is to provide different points of view so that we can GROW in our understanding (both parties grow). None of us have all of the answers! None of us will ever have all the answers until we stand in God's presence.

Instead, we tend to question peoples motives, thier underlying intent. We make broad generalizations. We judge!

The bible speaks clearly on judgement. It is like me trying to tell my boss that a co-working isn't pulling his/her load. I can whine all I want, but it is the boss that writes the performance report, sets the pay raise, and chooses wheter to keep an employee or not, all based on the bosses view of the worker's performance. Or, as scripture says "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:5 KJV)

Yes, we need to continue and strive to uphold God's word, to try and discern what is right or wrong. But be careful when you judge those that don't see eye-to-eye with us on a certain issue, because the word says, "To his own master he stands or falls; and HE WILL STAND..." (Romans 14:5 NAS)

BACK TO MY MAIN POINT
Let us put aside these disputes that divide us, open up HONEST OPEN discussion where we REALLY OPENLY look at issues, uplift one another, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, focus on reaching the lost!!!

In Christ,

Mark F.
(not to be confused with "Mark" or "The Other Mark")
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 21st, 2016, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 10th, 2006, 5:47 am #2

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Mark,

With or without the Restoration Movement, the church that Christ founded and established in Jerusalem has always existed—and the Lord’s kingdom shall stand forever. That’s a promise from God—a prophecy in Joel 2 and Matt. 16:18-19 and its fulfillment in Acts 1-2ff. The great men of the Restoration Movement did NOT found another religion. Let’s be aware that restoration does not mean a new creation; neither does it mean some type of transformation or makeover or improvement or alteration. Rather, it is a RETURN TO or a reinstatement of something original.

Let us be proud of our New Testament church heritage—a church owned by Christ and governed by the law of Christ, not by the Old Covenant or the law of Moses. While there are certainly great principles that we can learn from the Old Testament, New Testament Christianity is guided by the doctrine of Christ and His apostles. And there’s such a thing called traditions. Let me explain.

I’ve done some calculating, Mark, in regard to your attending the university—early 90’s? I can’t help but think of all the various “movements” that have been prevalent since the 70’s and onward—the “Jesus” Movement, the Charismatic Movement, the Contemporary Christian Music Movement, the Community Church Movement, the Church Growth Movement, etc.—that have affected not only the religious world in general, but even our brotherhood. Where have all the “pioneers” of recent generations gone—Baxter, G.K. Wallace, Thomas B. Warren, Goodpasture, et al? Does the church now have men like them then? These men’s trust or confidence in the traditions was not wavering or questionable.

Now, we’re talking about “tradition.” Dealing with what tradition is all about is crucial in determining whether or not we’re in the faith. OK. Do we realize that the advocates of the Church Transformation Movement (a.k.a. “change agents”) have become very adept at using the word “tradition” as one of their strongest defense mechanisms? Unless we are cognizant of their premise, which is their desire to ALTER the church of Jesus Christ, then, we are doomed to failure in our fight for the church that belongs to Christ and that bears His name, in our determination to remain loyal to His church, in our willingness to adhere to the teachings found in the New Testament (not in Rick Warren’s manual for church growth). Do we hear about the teachings and doctrine of Christ (Acts 13:12; Titus 2:10; Heb. 6:1; II John 1:9)? Or, of the apostles (Titus 1:1; II Tim. 1:1,11; Eph. 4:11)?

Wait, please! Ah … speaking of traditions:
  • <font color=red>” Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (II Thess. 2:15)

    “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (II Thess. 3:6)
    </font>
There’s nothing to fear when one knows the truth. I agree with you when you said, “… I have not found another group that tries so hard to search the Word and do what the Bible says.” I certainly can attest to that remarkable statement based on my experiences in the past searching for the truth from one religious body to another … to another. If nothing else, I drew the conclusion, which still stands, that the teachings I found in the New Testament come closest to what the NT church that I’ve come to know also teaches.

In the few years that I have been involved in what this website is trying to accomplish amid the battles that the change agents are waging against the church of Christ Jesus, I’ve learned to be patient and to understand those on that side without compromising the truth. Of course, I often feel that the other side is not listening to the fact that this website has no interest in changing the church that Christ established in the first century.

Yes, we all need to exercise a little more courtesy in discussing matters—especially controversial and unnecessary changes
—that cause division in any congregation. I think that any discussion will be more beneficial if any serious poster would give better identification of himself or herself. There’s much animosity involved when several posters identify themselves as “Anonymous.” You know, I would like to be able to address someone as Matthew, Mark, Luke or John and “he” or “his” or “him” at other times in my response. I would not want in my post to address or greet someone, “Hey, Anonymous” several times and not be able to identify the same person as “he” or “she” or whatever.

No, we haven’t figured it all out. But we should have the confidence and assurance in what we know the Holy Scripture teaches. When there’s no scriptural passage to disprove something that we know God’s Word teaches, then, that’s a good sign.

Thanks for letting us know your feelings. At the same time, this site will try to continue to warn others that NONE is authorized to change Christ’s church and God’s directives for His church.

Donnie</font>
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Zoe
Zoe

August 30th, 2006, 3:52 pm #3


It is frustrating to see the church I have grown up in become a shell of itself. It's like all great organizations, companies, governments, and yes, even churches; always taken down by greed, corruption, inability to adapt, and power struggles.

You can say, "God wouldn't let THAT happen to HIS church." And you'd be right. Kind of makes you wonder about our claim to be "THE One, TRUE Church."

I don't know our future, and not to be a downer, but I do know it's near as bright as our past. Fighting and criticism (much like what I see here) is eating us alive.

The irony: If the guys who started this site would have NOT started it, and worked, in a positive way, toward helping their local church be unified, the Kingdom would be much better off. But in true Church of Christ form, they band together and criticize, and become part of the problem.

I guess it's true. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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Anonymous
Anonymous

September 12th, 2006, 10:33 pm #4

Zoe-
I agree. It is very sad. This site is very sad. There is a complete vacuum of love here.

As an example, here is what they proudly tout as their "Quote of the Month" (on the home page, left hand column, about half-way down):

"The very term "jazz," according to the Cassell's Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins, is a Negro slang word for sexual intercourse. The author of the Dictionary mentions that he was told that the term "Rock and Roll" is also a Negro slang term for the same thing.
"As jazz meant the same thing, it is interesting that the twentieth century's two most significant inventions in popular music both derive from the same Black sexual source"

That is shameful. What does that remotely have to do with anything related to Christianity?

It's sick.

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Stan
Stan

November 21st, 2016, 5:28 am #5

It appears that the moderators of this site will have a lot of explaining to do. Matthew 12:36 reads "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
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Humility
Humility

November 21st, 2016, 4:16 pm #6

I characterize this site as a lack of "consensus" rather than a lack of love.

The attempt to combat change in the worship of the church has to a large extent turned into an endless scramble about the deity of Christ and Godhood.



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 21st, 2016, 7:16 pm #7

MY HISTORY AND HERITAGE
I have grown up in the church and attended churches of Christ across this nation. My family has a heritage with the church to include preachers and elders. I have attended a church of Christ University and studied Bible from some of the great conservative christians.

Beyond heritage and upbringing, there is one key reason that I worship with Christians that meet under the name "church of Christ." It is because I have not found another group that tries so hard to search the Word and do what the bible says.

That being said, now that I am in my mid 30's, I am struggling with what practices that we hold to are tradition and heritage and which are truely based on scriptural example and command. I guess you could say I am one of those standing in the middle, nervously looking at the mega churches and wondering where they are going and, at the same time, fearfully looking at the acrid words that come from those who insist they have it all figured out!

THE MAIN POINT
!!! What frustrats me the most is how all this in-fighting keeps us from doing what God wants us to do, reaching the lost and helping each other grow closer to God. !!!

DISCUSSION/DIALOGE/JUDGEMENT
It is good to discuss the pros and cons of what kind of illustration we use in our bible classes. It is good to discuss the negatives and postitives of a certain author's thoughts. It is good to discuss what we are focusing on in our corporate worship, whether we are trying to please God or ourselves. There is reason to have this DISCUSSION/DIALOGUE. But the purpose of any real discussion is to provide different points of view so that we can GROW in our understanding (both parties grow). None of us have all of the answers! None of us will ever have all the answers until we stand in God's presence.

Instead, we tend to question peoples motives, thier underlying intent. We make broad generalizations. We judge!

The bible speaks clearly on judgement. It is like me trying to tell my boss that a co-working isn't pulling his/her load. I can whine all I want, but it is the boss that writes the performance report, sets the pay raise, and chooses wheter to keep an employee or not, all based on the bosses view of the worker's performance. Or, as scripture says "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." (Romans 14:5 KJV)

Yes, we need to continue and strive to uphold God's word, to try and discern what is right or wrong. But be careful when you judge those that don't see eye-to-eye with us on a certain issue, because the word says, "To his own master he stands or falls; and HE WILL STAND..." (Romans 14:5 NAS)

BACK TO MY MAIN POINT
Let us put aside these disputes that divide us, open up HONEST OPEN discussion where we REALLY OPENLY look at issues, uplift one another, and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, focus on reaching the lost!!!

In Christ,

Mark F.
(not to be confused with "Mark" or "The Other Mark")
Stan found this old thread which is not crowded. When I study a passage Ii try to honor the context and look where any word might lead me. That is called Word Mining. While all of the "ore" might not contain gold, the evidence can be used to EXCLUDE anything which "those who speak on their own" insert: Jesus says that they are sons of the Devil. Those of the Word SPEAK or SAY; those of the Devil DO which means WORK.

Stan knows that the sermon uses a word or phrase to launch the lecture. Therefore, almost all sermons violate the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle. They dishonor the Mind of God who breathed (spirit) and Jesus certified the message and the eye-- and ear--witnesses left us a memory. Corrupting the Word is a word meaning "selling one's learning at retail" in the same way a prostitute sells other body parts.

ONE ONE SIDE the hypocrite include acting rituals or anything performed

The Little flock speaks or reads THE WORD. That was the command beginning with the church in the wilderness.

ON THE OTHER SIDE the prophesiers [sermons, songs, instruments] trying to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter."

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 22nd, 2016, 5:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 22nd, 2016, 2:30 am #8

It appears that the moderators of this site will have a lot of explaining to do. Matthew 12:36 reads "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."
Stan and Matthew 12:36

It appears that the moderators of this site will have a lot of explaining to do. Matthew 12:36 reads "But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."


It is important to know what the meaning of IS is. Jesus said that those who SPEAK ON THEIR OWN are the sons of the Devil. We try to post LOTS of God's Word and Jesus told the apostles that the world would hat them. There is not a remote hint that God is a family of three members as well invented and taught at LU. On the other hand, we have posted dozens of passages which have Jesus and others defining Himself as the SON OF GOD who by definition has a FATHER. Stan loves to hear Bill say that the son IS the father and the latter day NOT-historic trinitarians say that God became flesh and bones.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory:
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
but he that seeketh his glory that sent him,
.....the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


John called those who deny God the Father and the Man Jesus whom God made to be both Lord and Christ Antichrists. By claiming that A spirit is telling the musical soul snatchers to deliberately sown discord "cause we gonna save more souls" they do NOT Justify Jesus or the Father Who sent Him and BREATHED the WORD or Regulative Principle into Him.

Matt 12:34 O generation of VIPERS, how can ye, being evil, speak good things?
.....for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Matt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Matt 12:36 But I say unto you,
.....That every idle word that men shall speak,
.....they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.


An Idle Word is Otiosus: leasure, unoccupied, not official but PRIVATE words

Matt 12:37 For by THY words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.


The WORDS of God delivered by Jesus and left for our "memory" is called SPIRIT and LIFE because the WORD of God is the only creative or educating source IF you are a Christian. A disciple OF Christ never debates the TEXT but obeys the command to PREACH it by READING it.

God IS WORD and Jesus SPEAKS only what God BREATHED into Him. THAT word is:
h3056. lo/go logos,

</font>
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 22nd, 2016, 7:55 am #9

I characterize this site as a lack of "consensus" rather than a lack of love.

The attempt to combat change in the worship of the church has to a large extent turned into an endless scramble about the deity of Christ and Godhood.


[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]That's an accurate observation!

Consensus -- the lack of it is typical or characteristic of a religious discussion forum. This site is no exception.

The shift of emphasis from the Change Movement may be partly attributed to what the change agents in the brotherhood have already accomplished. The mega churches of Christ have already been transitioned to being Community Churches. It appears that rural congregations are difficult to convert.

There are hundreds of religious topics that need to be discussed, but obviously members of the church of Christ find it more appealing to discuss the usual subject matters that pertain to instrumental music in the assembly. On the subject of the deity of Christ and Godhood, members of the church should be more aware than claimed that the Trinity doctrine has its own history.

To God's followers in the Old Testament, Trinity was an unknown commodity -- they worshiped and served the only true God and Creator; there was not the slightest hint that the "Holy Ghost" was a PERSON in the "Trinity"; and the coming Messiah (born only 2000 years ago) was only prophesied.

This was so in the 1st century church. The early Christians did not wonder or had to worry whether or not "the Holy Ghost" was God.

Around the 4th century, the Trinitarian doctrine was born.

The Restoration Movement did not endorse nor teach the Trinity dogma. By the 1940s, the dogma was accepted and taught by some preachers in the church of Christ. The Charismatic Movement, with the emphasis on the power of the Holy Ghost and "His" direct influence upon the Christian, greatly helped in the propagation of the dogma.

So now many churches of Christ and individual Christians have fully embraced this doctrine, just like Protestantism has, generally speaking.

Our attempt in discussing Godhood is to return to what the Scripture has revealed to us, without reliance upon the tradition stemming from the apostatized "Roman" Catholic Church and from the accepting Protestant Churches -- the man-made tradition now embraced by churches in the last several decades.[/color]
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Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

November 22nd, 2016, 6:21 pm #10

Stan found this old thread which is not crowded. When I study a passage Ii try to honor the context and look where any word might lead me. That is called Word Mining. While all of the "ore" might not contain gold, the evidence can be used to EXCLUDE anything which "those who speak on their own" insert: Jesus says that they are sons of the Devil. Those of the Word SPEAK or SAY; those of the Devil DO which means WORK.

Stan knows that the sermon uses a word or phrase to launch the lecture. Therefore, almost all sermons violate the Word, Logos or Regulative Principle. They dishonor the Mind of God who breathed (spirit) and Jesus certified the message and the eye-- and ear--witnesses left us a memory. Corrupting the Word is a word meaning "selling one's learning at retail" in the same way a prostitute sells other body parts.

ONE ONE SIDE the hypocrite include acting rituals or anything performed

The Little flock speaks or reads THE WORD. That was the command beginning with the church in the wilderness.

ON THE OTHER SIDE the prophesiers [sermons, songs, instruments] trying to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter."

Mark F. Says "It is good to discuss the pros and cons of what kind of illustration we use in our bible classes. It is good to discuss the negatives and postitives of a certain author's thoughts. It is good to discuss what we are focusing on in our corporate worship, whether we are trying to please God or ourselves. There is reason to have this DISCUSSION/DIALOGUE. But the purpose of any real discussion is to provide different points of view so that we can GROW in our understanding (both parties grow). None of us have all of the answers! None of us will ever have all the answers until we stand in God's presence."

I am not familiar with the concept or term "corporate worship". This is a confusing statement, when we are told to work our own salvation with fear and trembling. Can the assembly facilitate spiritual worship? The assembly can certainly teach me what it means to worship in the spirit with the truth, but no one can worship for me. Should other members be held accountable for my sins? Will those who are teachers be held accountable for what they teach. We do have scripture confirming this, and that we should be careful how we teach others. This is extremely terrifying to me, and should be a warning to all. I don't want to be the cause of someone losing what little understanding they have. If I truly love you, then I would help you at the risk of my own life to point you to the only truth, which was delivered to us by one man,, Jesus Christ the righteous, and the apostles he chose to deliver that truth after his sacrifice.

Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

2 Peter 2:1-3 (KJV)
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. [3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

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