Fourth Ave Church of Christ, Franklin, TN

Fourth Ave Church of Christ, Franklin, TN

Anonymous
Anonymous

March 12th, 2003, 7:20 pm #1

To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 13th, 2003, 1:55 am #2

Two Sundays ago the Elders informed the congregation that they were seeking to employ a "Worship Minister" in order to reach the un-churched of our city and to give God our very best. Of course the majority of the congregation was left wondering what a Worship Minister was, as this topic had never been discussed by the congregation at-large. (First Alarm went off).

I was recently directed to this website and up until now was not aware of the Community Church movement. I'm not 100% that this is what is happening at our congregation, but these events have left a large number of our congregation wondering what is going on and articles and information from this site are now floating around concerned members. The one item that made my blood run cold was the mention of a "Get Over It" speech - we've gotten that forceful message from the Elders recently (Second Alarm going off). Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart.

Additionally, stewardship has become a hot topic among concerned members, who are frankly dumbfounded by this type of spending. It seems we have been worshipping in "spirit and in truth" for centuries without lighting and sound technicians. I'd love to have seen the apostles following Jesus around with a trailer full of props and assistants. It seems to me He did more than just fine without any such aid. This type of decision-making is completely foreign to my lifelong experience in the Church, as I think it should. The Elders have stated that they want to transform us from a "traditional" Church of Christ to a "liberal" Church of Christ. It's just amazing - I don't remember the congregation deciding that! All said, my family is planning a quick exit as it's high time we finally act on what our "gut" has been telling us for some time. The congregation has amazing potential, which has made our decision even more heart-wrenching.
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Stanley Adams
Stanley Adams

March 13th, 2003, 1:11 pm #3

What do you want to hear, that your church is about to experience a new rebirth? Well get ready. And what you need to do is to rally the like minded brothers and you need to not put up with the false changes and stand your ground. If you do not the place will be lost. Read that: the property will be lost to these liberal people. And if the property is taken, please tell them to have the decency to take the pictures of famous preachers that are on the walls of the library and to send the library of restoration literature that you have to some place that respects it. Those that will stay will not respect it.
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Joined: March 13th, 2003, 4:36 am

March 13th, 2003, 2:40 pm #4

We currently have a petition called a "Declaration of Concern" we will be presenting to the Elders. We have at least 100 signatures now. The problem is that the way the change is occurring - slowly and secretly. Most think it is an honest attempt to enhance the worship service. For those who are aware of the true level of change that will come (including past Elders and current deacons, etc.), there is a great deal of concern and urgency, but most just don't know. There are many who are prepared to leave if these changes happen, so maybe the lack of $ will wake some people up.
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

March 13th, 2003, 4:10 pm #5

Two Sundays ago the Elders informed the congregation that they were seeking to employ a "Worship Minister" in order to reach the un-churched of our city and to give God our very best. Of course the majority of the congregation was left wondering what a Worship Minister was, as this topic had never been discussed by the congregation at-large. (First Alarm went off).

I was recently directed to this website and up until now was not aware of the Community Church movement. I'm not 100% that this is what is happening at our congregation, but these events have left a large number of our congregation wondering what is going on and articles and information from this site are now floating around concerned members. The one item that made my blood run cold was the mention of a "Get Over It" speech - we've gotten that forceful message from the Elders recently (Second Alarm going off). Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart.

Additionally, stewardship has become a hot topic among concerned members, who are frankly dumbfounded by this type of spending. It seems we have been worshipping in "spirit and in truth" for centuries without lighting and sound technicians. I'd love to have seen the apostles following Jesus around with a trailer full of props and assistants. It seems to me He did more than just fine without any such aid. This type of decision-making is completely foreign to my lifelong experience in the Church, as I think it should. The Elders have stated that they want to transform us from a "traditional" Church of Christ to a "liberal" Church of Christ. It's just amazing - I don't remember the congregation deciding that! All said, my family is planning a quick exit as it's high time we finally act on what our "gut" has been telling us for some time. The congregation has amazing potential, which has made our decision even more heart-wrenching.
First, you should understand that when the Elders INFORMED the congregation instead of asked the congregation you have the first MARK of a religious CULT. The role of the elder is to "teach that which has been taught" and to "refute those who oppose it." Buildings and grounds and EXTRA BIBLICAL heresy is not part of their authority. Your "obedience" ends when he does not teach that which has been taught and when he turns out to be a WOLF loving to feast on lambs and fleecing the flocks.

"TRADITIONAL" is one of the secret code words of the Shellyites and their ilk. Removing TRADITIONS is a good idea. First, we can begin with self selected or peer selected elders more "apt to chase a coon than apt to teach the Bible." Paul asked that elders be POINTED OUT (not ordained) who were "already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching."

Next, traditionalism is getting a HIRED HAND whom they can dominate to "pull the chestnuts out of the fire" so the little monkeys don't get burned. That was traditionalism condemned by Paul, most of church history and the Restoration Movement leaders.

Now, the NEW tradition is of the preacher hired to hate the flock by becoming a dominant pastor with the elders serving under him as his board. Look to the preacher for the source of the lies which give authority to the elders who are Biblically illiterate because of the TRADITIONALISM of "workbooks" rather than the Bible.

The traditionalism has made "church" into a WORSHIP CENTER rather than a Synagogue of Christ where neither synagogue or church has ANY PRAISE SERVICE. The synagogue (Qahal) was begun by Moses and God outlawed the TRIUMPH which included "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was all nation's WARRIOR CHANT.

Traditionalism is singing secular songs (blue, red, gold etc) rather than that which Paul specified as "that which is written, the Spirit or the Word of Christ."

Hiring a WORSHIP MINISTER has only the most ancient and superstitious paganism for its authority: it began at the towers of Babylon. This "worship" was STAFF INFECTED by "priests, prophets, soothsayers, singers, instrumentalists and male and female PROSTITUTES" so widely condemned by the Bible as the Qadesh, Qedeshim or qedeshot--the holy whores.

Even now PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS have a reputation which began with Lucifer (ZOE) who came equipped in the garden of Eden with Wind, String and Percussion instruments. As the king/queen of Tyre she/he is called THE HARP- PLAYING PROSTITUTE. In the Bible SINGERS are associated with the ACT and the names of instruments with the temple-clustering PROSTITUTES. The instrumentalist who will arrive in your churches after the TEAM were always associated with the SODOMITES.

The not-elders are converting your church into A THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT and that according to all of the history including the end-time church in Revelation 18 will make your church into THE HOLY WHORE.

Stewardship: you are to blame. How? By being the ENABLERS of those who brag about INFILTRATING AND DIVERTING. Why is that? You began by believing the worst lie of church history called THE LAW OF GIVING. The Word of God is FREE, Jesus paid the temple tax and Paul said of the effort to save those destitute and starving "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." All of history saw GIVING not as proportional giving but those WHO HAVE PROSPERED were urged to voluntarily help THOSE WHO WERE DESTITUTE. Not even able bodied evangelists were allowed to dally more than two or three days without getting a job or getting out.

There is nothing in the Bible and the Bible repudiates it that STEWARDSHIP must be directed from my hand into the hands of a SECULAR ORGANIZATION.

Next, the PATTERNISM is to lie to you about TITHING. As they say at Madison if you don't TITHE God will curse you. They used Kregg Hood's (Sweet VP) book on tithing. Kregg speaks in tongues, heals and looks forward to raising the dead in America.

"Liberal" means lying about the Bible and repudiating it as inspired. Liberal means that we accept the Lucado Shelly THREE GOD polytheism. Liberal means that WE have the power of inspiration and that is why YOU must not, as I was told by a Madisoners, "Question God's celestial beings."

"Traditional" is the Shellyite code word which relates almost totally to the church of Christ view AGAINST the "musical" concept and for "teaching" through singing. They lie and stink worse than my wet Chow spread over the kitchen floor just having dined on a deer carcase.

The ANTI-musical theme began in the garden of Eden when Satan WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve and Adam BOWED WILLINGLY. ALL of the musical concepts in the entire Bible speak of Satanic influence which causes people to tell God: "We will not listen to your Word."

In every "musical" event it is a MARK that the people had fallen beyond redemption. The Levites made a great crashing noise to mask the horrors of slaughtering thousands of animals, blood pouring like rivers, dung spread over the place, and the noises of animals dying as a TYPE of Christ. Jesus CAST out the musical worship team trying to influence the "gods" during the healing of the girl "LIKE DUNG.

The Levite "noise makers" were NEVER in the holy place as a type of the church or body of Christ. If even a singer went into the type of CHURCH they would have been slaughtered like one of the animals.

The Bible and history is 100% in treating musical performers in the presence of a holy God wanting to TEACH us through His Words as the work of PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES.

You are asking for a dose of SPIRITUAL AIDS from which the church will never recover. The "logic" for introducing singers and/or musicians is EXACTLY the same authority which would authorize the beyond-redemption non-elders to add PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES which I can assure you will suck in more of the same type which professional singers suck in.

Apollo (Abaddon or Apollyon) is the pattern for the SEEKER CENTER in John's revelation and the MUSES were both his singers and GODDESSES. John prophesied of Apollyon digging up the dead muses as LOCUSTS or "musical performers."

The BIG lie is that churches of Christ INTRODUCED the non-instrumental view and became the non-instrumental SECTARIANS. The TRUTH is that the church of Christ has existed under that name in every period of history and all groups repudiated the MUSICAL concept as polluting to a Spiritual discipline.

Those who tamper with the MUSIC ISSUE are following the Lynn Anderson "Prayerful brinkmanship" game which DEMANDS the deliberate SOWING OF DISCORD which will make your "synagogue of Christ" into a "synagogue of Satan."

The same authority which allows evil men to USURP AUTHORITY gives you and the congregation the authority to FIRE THEM and cast them out as evil "stealers of church houses of widows." They are like one who would enter your house and give himself the authority to be the surrogate HUSBAND and FATHER. Jesus in advising one's readiness in case a thief enters into the house gives you the AUTHORITY to put him out. If they did the same thing to a business, like Enron, they would do hard time on the Rock Pile of hell.

You need to perform YOUR MINISTRY and help EXORCISE the "Giving Demon" without wasting any time: the plan is to get the old faithfuls to pay the bills and then CHASE THEM AWAY to fill the ranks with children already brain dead through music. You do know that the TYPE they want to introduce includes ROCK and that is from VOODOO and is one of those "F" words. Why tolerate people who are clearly beyond the bounds of minimal human consideration? You need a plan to INFORM all present and past members.

Why use PERFORMERS who even in the almost weekly news articles are SYMBOLS of evil and perversion to REACH the lost when the lost already are addicted to music which produces the morphine- like Endorphin which creates the impulse of FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY?

What they are saying is that they ARE going to let the unholy whores STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE which in Jerusalem was the Zeus-Dionysus "worshipers" where sacrifice, music and literal sexuality was performed RIGHT IN the holy places as the Abomination of Desolation with which the piping Jews tried to AFFLICT AND INFLICT upon Jesus Christ to PERVERT HIM. Never BOW TO BAAL in the presence of a musical or theatrical performer.

Kenneth Sublett, Hohenwald
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Joined: March 9th, 2002, 4:18 pm

March 13th, 2003, 4:37 pm #6

To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
It's going to be important to educate your fellow members as soon as possible.

Send ConcernedMembers an email with your address, and how many members you have, and we will send you some postcards
like these.
[url=mailto:concernedmembers@webmailstation.com]concernedmembers@webmailstation.com[/url]

Post Card:

Thanks
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on March 13th, 2003, 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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josh stafford
josh stafford

March 15th, 2003, 2:12 am #7

To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
power corrups, total power corrups totally. no place in the scripture gives elders total power over the flock of God. if you had not allowed yourselves to be hoodwinked into letting a few unconverted men rule over you, you would not be in this mess. the evanglist appoints the first elder. why should he not appoint the last one? elders appointing other elders is Godless mess. that is why we are about to have a war. dictators. the elders think, and you concer, they are the only voice in the church that matters. let me come and preach one week and all of them will resign, which is not a scriptureal thing to do. you can't resign from God's work. you have made your bed hard and now you must lie in it. josh stafford
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

March 15th, 2003, 5:04 pm #8

Josh if absolute power corrupts the eldership why would not absolute power corrupt the EVANGELIST? Josh, Paul Revere was an "evangelist" or herald. There can no more be a LOCATED EVANGELIST than there can be a located travelling salesman.

Here is where the church fell into the deep well of apostasy. Don Finto got his revelation and returned to Nashville to proclaim:

"By this time I had seen that in the New Testament, elders were appointed by apostles...by Paul and Barnabas...by Titus" (Belmont p. 2).

"The books of Timothy were written so that Timothy would know how to set elders in order in the churches. God has used me to do that in other churches" (Ibid. p. 2)

Evangelists were commissioned to GO and not to stay.

Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee.

Proving that Titus had no local authority, Paul continued to define those who were to be POINTED OUT as already laboring. Titus knew which men were working with Paul and therefore approved by him. Paul was inspired but we don't have any of those around.

First, Paul an APOSTLE appointed by Jesus Christ writes this letter telling Titus to point out elders.

Second, Paul told him the QUALIFICATION.

Third, Paul had ALREADY appointed to Titus those who should be selected: they would ALREADY be doing what an elder should do as the ONLY located pastor- teacher.

-----KATHISTEMI = to appoint a person to a position (Vine) (Titus 1:5) "Not a formal ecclesiastical ordination is in view, but the appointment, for the recognition of the churches, of those who had already been raised up and qualified by the Holy Spirit, and had been given evidence of this in their life and service."

Fourth, there were OVER 100 cities on Crete and it is evident that Titus did not see himself as the overseer of any of these many city flocks because Paul has to write a letter authorizing and admonishing him to "get on with the work" for which Paul left him on Crete.

Fifth, by pointing out those already qualified by Paul's Apostolic authority he would confirm those who were ALREADY the natural leaders ALREADY laboring in preaching and teaching. The person should be pointed out as the model for the flock to follow.

Sixth, Timothy a more notable evangelist than Titus had been ordained and instructed by both Paul and the ELDERS.

1 Tim 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Tim 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

There is no OFFICE of "PREACHER." Evangelists would naturally detect those who WOULD and COULD perform as a PASTOR- TEACHER. However, the only way to DETECT a leader is to see whether people are ALREADY following him because of his faithfulness to the word and they watched "the outcome of his life."

He is POINTED OUT by having his OWN personal holy spirit or mental disposition.

Ken Sublett
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Leon Wolf
Leon Wolf

March 16th, 2003, 12:01 am #9

We currently have a petition called a "Declaration of Concern" we will be presenting to the Elders. We have at least 100 signatures now. The problem is that the way the change is occurring - slowly and secretly. Most think it is an honest attempt to enhance the worship service. For those who are aware of the true level of change that will come (including past Elders and current deacons, etc.), there is a great deal of concern and urgency, but most just don't know. There are many who are prepared to leave if these changes happen, so maybe the lack of $ will wake some people up.
First of all, let me say by posting here, that I do not necessarily agree with everything said or posted here by the site administrators, and would that I would also highly encourage them to be more discerning in the teachers that they advertise in their weekly emails - one article in the past which was advertised supported an article by Paul Proctor which was premillenial through and through.

Despite this, the aim of "warning the brethren" day and night in the spirit of Acts 20:30,31 is something which is an ugly necessity in the times in which we live.

I hope and pray that your elders still have an honest enough heart to listen to the members of the congregation. If that is the case, then they will realize at the very least that they are on the verge of causing a split in your congregation and stop what they are doing. However, I want to share with you some of my experience in the business world and alert you to the mode of thought people generally fall into when they are going to implement a change.

Some years ago, I worked for a massive retail/direct sales computer company that was the largest of its kind in America. We brought in billions in revenue every year, however, we were not profitable whatsoever. The higher ups in the company got together and decided to drastically change the way that we do business - and centralize our operations in one location and remove many of our face-to-face reps. One of the things that any business does when they are implementing such a change is to consider the possible impact on the current customer base. Everyone figured that some customers would not appreciate losing their face-to-face reps, and so the company had to figure out how many customers we could lose with this new system and still be more profitable than we were before. This is what is known as "acceptable attrition"

You might be shocked to learn that it was decided that we could lose over 60 per cent of our current customer base and still be more profitable. I want to tell you that working for this company during this time was one of the more unpleasant experiences of my life. However, we were told and trained that no matter how many people called and threatened to cancel their contracts and were unhappy, that we were to let them. This was the new way of doing business and if they wanted to do business with us this was how it was going to be. In fact, the company actually designated certain contracts were "money-losers" and actually set out trying to default them so that we would not have to have those customers any more. This kind of approach was disastrous - our attrition was actually closer to 80 per cent, and today that company is barely even viable as a direct sales entity.

My point is this: it's naive in these situations to believe that the eldership there has not considered the possible (or certain) loss of membership. Especially in the situation you are describing which is so well organized - I would guess that they even have a specific number in mind that they expect to leave initially, and you would probably be shocked at how large that number is. The point is - they don't care. If they don't show immediate signs of listening - that is, DOING the things you are asking about - but rather continue on in the same vein while trying to sound sympathetic, realize that they consider you to be a part of "acceptable attrition".

What you do about that situation will be up to you.

Leon
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

March 16th, 2003, 3:17 pm #10

To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
You should read this series to see how you are supposed to be converted before you wake up:

http://www.concernedmembers.com/editori ... ersion.htm
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on March 17th, 2003, 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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