Fourth Ave Church of Christ, Franklin, TN

Chris Norwood
Chris Norwood

March 22nd, 2003, 3:49 pm #11

To date, we've heard the now infamous "Get Over It" speech and the Elders are now looking to hire a professional "Worship Minister." I had not heard of the Community Church movement up until very recently, but having lived in Nashville all my life I have been aware of the happenings at Madison Church of Christ, West End Church of Christ and the split in Hendersonville. I am not 100% that this movement is what is happening within our Eldership, but it sure smells like it. The general feeling is that several of the Elders are the fuel behind this and the rest have been influenced to varying degrees. Most of our Elders have been in place for years, so this has been very upsetting and confusing for many. Any thoughts?
With all due respect to the people who maintain this site, if you are posting or reading messages on this website, I ask you for the scriptural basis for the venting of these things in this venue. Are you not supposed to be sitting down in love and prayer with your brothers and sisters with whom you have a difference? If you are a member at Fourth Avenue, stop believing the lies and misinformation that is being spewed forth from this site. There is no community church ulterior motive. There is no wish for anyone to leave.
How would people who do not even attend Fourth Avenue even know the congregation? If you are a member of the congregation, then how is the airing of differences on this site bringing unsaved people to the strong knowledge and saving grace of God?
There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ. I plead with you to stop ego and selfishness and pride from standing in the way of our being able to sit down and talk. This is not the forum. This is not the place. I have very little hope that this message will get through to you, because it will probably be edited or erased. I have signed my name to this posting so you will know who I am. I will not hide and try to be anonymous. I will stand up for Truth. Please get away from this site. Its mission has nothing to do with the spreading of the good news of Jesus Christ. It has everything to do with people sitting in judgement of others.
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

March 24th, 2003, 4:11 pm #12

The commission of Jesus is to teach and also to admonish and warn.

You state: "There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ."

Does that mean that YOU believe that God has give you the TOOLS of the musical worship heresy to SPREAD the news of Jesus Christ?

Jesus THOUGHT that He gave us ALL of the tools which is the WORDS OF CHRIST, the SPIRIT or THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN so that we can WITH ONE MOUTH AND VOICE glorify God. If you believe that your SOWING OF DISCORD move into the BABYLON HARLOT form of "musical religion" is going to be FORCED on others then YOU must believe that you are MORE inspired than Jesus or Paul. Indeed, the 13th apostles DO so teach that the Bible has been "sifted through philosophy and the personal agenda of the Bible writers so that ALL we have left is the CORE GOSPEL of seven FACTS ABOUT Jesus Christ." (Shellyism which is Sillyism).

If you believe that this end-time Babylon form of MUSICAL PERFORMANCE trumps the WORDS OF GOD then you may not want to OUT yourself so completely.

The ORIGIN of musical "worship" is from SATAN and all scholarship knows that "THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION." You guys DID NOT FABRICATE the "LOOK AT ME" form of music: it began with Lucifer (ZOE) who as the king/ queen of Tyre was the HARP PLAYING PROSTITUTE in the garden of Eden. She/he went into SHEOL with his/her harps and harpists. See the HARPS and HARPISTS here:

http://www.piney.com/RSAbraham.html


You state: "There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ."

Did you know that Jesus cast out the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM (funeral, weddings, religious festivals, coming into the presence of the gods) MORE OR LESS VIOLENTLY "LIKE DUNG" IS SCATTERED.

If you follow through with SOWING DISCORD it will have ZERO Biblical authority and 100% of historical authority which makes it a TOOL of Satan. All of the "pagan" gods were homosexual. In the Bible and secular literature SINGERS spoke of prostitutes and MUSICIANS spoke of Sodomites which, for much of the time, had a role in the perverted Temple in Jerusalem.

HERE IS THE FACT WHICH ELEMINATES YOUR "IDOLATRY OF TALENT" IN THE ASSEMBLY OR SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE:

1Pe.4:11 If any man SPEAK,

------let him speak as the ORACLES of God;

if any man minister,

------let him do it as of the ability which God giveth:

--that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

THERE IS NO ROLE FOR THE IDOLATRY OF TALENT IN THE CHURCH OF CHRIST: IT IS HISTORICALLY ALWAYS ASSOCIATED WITH THE "HOLY WHORE" RELIGIONS.

Don't Offend these little ones or you are MARKED.

Here is some more data:

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thr ... 1048478924

Ken Sublett
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on March 24th, 2003, 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MAFB
MAFB

March 25th, 2003, 3:20 pm #13

With all due respect to the people who maintain this site, if you are posting or reading messages on this website, I ask you for the scriptural basis for the venting of these things in this venue. Are you not supposed to be sitting down in love and prayer with your brothers and sisters with whom you have a difference? If you are a member at Fourth Avenue, stop believing the lies and misinformation that is being spewed forth from this site. There is no community church ulterior motive. There is no wish for anyone to leave.
How would people who do not even attend Fourth Avenue even know the congregation? If you are a member of the congregation, then how is the airing of differences on this site bringing unsaved people to the strong knowledge and saving grace of God?
There is a stong desire to use tools that we have been given to spread the news of Jesus Christ. I plead with you to stop ego and selfishness and pride from standing in the way of our being able to sit down and talk. This is not the forum. This is not the place. I have very little hope that this message will get through to you, because it will probably be edited or erased. I have signed my name to this posting so you will know who I am. I will not hide and try to be anonymous. I will stand up for Truth. Please get away from this site. Its mission has nothing to do with the spreading of the good news of Jesus Christ. It has everything to do with people sitting in judgement of others.
Thank you for speaking up to people who are addressing issues they know nothing about or have heard only one side.They assume that what we are dealing with here is the same as another place. The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent. It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

March 25th, 2003, 8:29 pm #14

This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:

"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."

NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:

-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.

Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.

THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.

Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.

In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.

I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

Thomas Campbell wrote:

------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.

------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.

=============================================

"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).

No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.

The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.

Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.

Ken Sublett.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 26th, 2003, 4:22 am #15

Re: Thanks but no thanks, Chris
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

March 26th, 2003, 3:49 pm #16

Thank you for speaking up to people who are addressing issues they know nothing about or have heard only one side.They assume that what we are dealing with here is the same as another place. The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent. It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).
Loyalty is a fine thing but loyalty to Christ comes first.

ONE product of the Jubilee is that Rubel Shelly sees the "ministers" as the BEST qualified to lead while the elders shepherd the ministers. Elders at times mislead but are also MISLEAD by those who see themselves as DOMINANT PASTORS or cult leaders.

David Lipscomb on Church Authority

"Whenever a man or set of men . . . assume to exercise authority in a church by virtue of some official appointment, or to assert, they have rights and authority as officers above others and assume to exert their rights without the full consent and approval of the members, they should be resisted even to the disruption of the body. They are lording it over God's heritage, and are exalting their authority at the expense of the authority of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. One man, in the assertion and maintenance of the Divine will, has as much authority as another, more than a thousand ordained ones in disregard of that will. The ONLY REASON we have seen from Scripture for appointing certain individuals to special work was to see that NEGLECTED work was performed. The seven at Jerusalem were appointed to see that the Grecian widows, neglected in the daily ministration were fed. Titus was sent to set in order the things "wanting," and to place Elders in their proper work.

"Whenever a man in the church of Christ claims authority or exercises power merely on official ground, he is essentially a POPE and claims the prerogatives of papacy as fully as does he of Rome. He may be a smaller one, his sphere of action may be more limited, but the principle is the same. All the evils of the papacy arise out of the claim of the Pope and his council to decide questions by virtue of official position.--Gospel Advocate, 1877, Page 232

We have reviewed the SADDLE BACK COVENANT which guides many who have slipped from Jubilee, to Willow Creek to Saddleback:

http://www.piney.com/MadCovMember.html

Ken Sublett
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 26th, 2003, 5:03 pm #17

This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:

"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."

NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:

-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.

Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.

THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.

Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.

In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.

I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

Thomas Campbell wrote:

------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.

------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.

=============================================

"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).

No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.

The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.

Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.

Ken Sublett.
My question to you Kenneth is; Which of satans rocks did they find you under.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 26th, 2003, 5:24 pm #18

This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:

"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."

NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:

-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.

Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.

THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.

Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.

In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.

I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

Thomas Campbell wrote:

------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.

------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.

=============================================

"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).

No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.

The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.

Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.

Ken Sublett.
How can you in good coscience comment about an "open dialog" not knowing if the statements made are truth of lies. You are commenting and making statements about a church and its elders under the assumption that the open dialog statements are true. I believe the Lord would want you to comment on facts and not things that could be lies.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 26th, 2003, 5:44 pm #19

This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:

"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."

NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:

-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.

Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.

THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.

Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.

In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.

I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

Thomas Campbell wrote:

------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.

------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.

=============================================

"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).

No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.

The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.

Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.

Ken Sublett.
My question to you Kenneth is; Which of satans rocks did they find you under.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 26th, 2003, 5:44 pm #20

This open dialog began with the statement by one of your members:

"Not to mention the secrecy of the plan to hire a Worship Leader -which includes extra lighting, sound and video components as well as praise teams. With secrecy being a large component of this equation, trust has become a big issue, leaving many in a "holding pattern," unwilling to give fully of their time, resources and heart."

NOTHING which happens in Franklin, Madison, Columbia etc., without directly involving people we love. Therefore, perhaps you can silence the cheap seats if you KNOW what is being planned and TELL your own members.

THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE AND PROBABLY SELF SERVING:

-----"The elders at 4th Ave are among the most Godly, prayerful men I know. They are truely seeking to do the work of the Lord. To seek and save the lost. No where in the New Testament do I read about a church being a democracy. I don't recall getting to "vote" on how "my" money is spent.

Oh, yes you do! Peter told a couple that when they sold their property the money BELONGED TO THEM and not to the Lord unless they were willing to give.

THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING in the New Testament. Paul said that JIM SHOULD LAY BY IN JIM'S COOKIE JAR until He saw the Apostle's team coming to take it to Judea in a GROUP.

Paul said "THIS IS NOT A COMMAND." Therefore, the elders have no authority to collect YOUR money and then SWITCH how it is going to be spent. That is UNGODLY.

In Paul's statement the PROSPEROUS owed the DESTITUTE food: they owed the elders nothing.

I suggest that you read the evidence which godly elders CANNOT use to make you believe that the ELDER's authority extends beyond "teaching that which has been taught" and "refuting those who contradict" the Written Word.

http://www.piney.com/LayByInStore.html

Thomas Campbell wrote:

------"The contracting of heavy and oppressive debts is proscribed.

------"No brother is allowed to enthral himself or others in any sort of worldly speculations which incur either anxiety on his part or inconvenience to others. The aged, feeble, and helpless are taken care of by the brethren.

=============================================

"It is the Lord's money. The elders that have been appointed to lead me have the right and authority to make those decisions. That is why they are "shepherds" and I am "a sheep". Unless you know the hearts of the men you are speaking about,and have talked to them face to face you have no right to talk (or write).

No, No: Shepherds DO NOT TAKE UP COLLECTIONS FROM THE FLOCK. The early elders WORKED in order to help support those who had "observed the outcomes of their lives" and picked them to be their TEACHERS and FEEDERS.

The HEART is evil if men decide that they have the authority to BYPASS the ONE ANOTHER role of the Body over which Jesus Christ is the head. They are Biblically and historically illiterate if they think that there is any authority to hire a TEAM to lead you into the presence of God with music. ALL such teams claim the role of Jesus as MEDIATOR.

Please tell us what YOU have become a WATCHTOWER SLAVE to defend and ADD which always deliberately sows discord.

Ken Sublett.
My question to you Kenneth is; Which of satans rocks did they find you under.
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