For those of you that always find something wrong with everyone

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

May 1st, 2006, 4:23 pm #21

Something tricky is going on. I put in www.concernedmembers.org and it took me to the Madison COC website. I might be telling you something that you already know.

 

Have a great day,

 Tom


Palm Beach Lakes Church of Christ
West Palm Beach, Florida
The NEW Madison is built on the INFILTRATE and DIVERT. As a way to use the Concerned Members popularity they got the .org version. So when you THINK you are goint to concerned members they DIVERT you to Madison. Isn't that slicker than a salted slug. Very devious!
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B
B

May 1st, 2006, 8:36 pm #22

JC,
Please define "contemporary" style worship??
* theatre
* drama
* dance
* women leadership
* speaking in toungues
* amplifiers, drums, electric guitars, different instruments
* preaching a "sugar coated" gospel almost entirely about love and nothing about hell & damnation


Funny, I've been to contemporary services and seen none of the above. By the way, the gospel message is one of love. You might want to make sure that's an "authorized" KJV you've got there.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

May 1st, 2006, 10:05 pm #23

The NEW Madison is built on the INFILTRATE and DIVERT. As a way to use the Concerned Members popularity they got the .org version. So when you THINK you are goint to concerned members they DIVERT you to Madison. Isn't that slicker than a salted slug. Very devious!
Just FYI, and I think I pointed this out a few years ago, the same goes for www.concernmembers.net.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

May 9th, 2006, 12:36 pm #24

* theatre
* drama
* dance
* women leadership
* speaking in toungues
* amplifiers, drums, electric guitars, different instruments
* preaching a "sugar coated" gospel almost entirely about love and nothing about hell & damnation


Funny, I've been to contemporary services and seen none of the above. By the way, the gospel message is one of love. You might want to make sure that's an "authorized" KJV you've got there.
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>That’s shocking to me!

I’ve seen (and heard) most of the above where I attend—and for the rest, the “appearance.” For example, this past “Easter celebration,” there was an “INTERACTIVE EASTER DRAMA WORSHIP.” The “fake” [“drama” defined] performances were excellent, and the crowd was entertained. (Please see the thread “Happy Ishtar.”)

Let me know if I need to elaborate on the other items listed.

Maybe, you need to observe more keenly.

Donnie</font>
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B
B

May 9th, 2006, 2:53 pm #25

My point is that although that may describe the contemporary worship at Madison, it doesn't describe it everywhere. Since we have no governing body over the churches of Christ, not everyone will do a contemporary service in the same way. People shouldn't hear the word "contemporary" and run from it based on your descriptions.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

May 10th, 2006, 10:55 am #26

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I had thought that you weren’t referring to Madison. And you’re correct—not all “transformed” or “transforming” congregations have the same “practices.” We’ve always believed that churches of Christ are autonomous (with respect to the number of elders, order of “worship,” number of songs, etc.)—but that’s not the issue.

Only some of the diverted, Community Church-prone mega congregations have dramas and “Worship Leaders” and “Praise Teams.” These congregations can afford a highly paid “Worship Leader”—employed to “lead the congregation into God’s holy presence” with Holy Laughter. Ha-Ha-Ha!!!

“Contemporary” is not an ugly word. But I have the tendency to run from “Contemporary Christian Rock”—you know, that music thingy that causes my nerve endings to tingle and my body to gyrate.</font>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 10th, 2006, 3:06 pm #27

* theatre
* drama
* dance
* women leadership
* speaking in toungues
* amplifiers, drums, electric guitars, different instruments
* preaching a "sugar coated" gospel almost entirely about love and nothing about hell & damnation


Funny, I've been to contemporary services and seen none of the above. By the way, the gospel message is one of love. You might want to make sure that's an "authorized" KJV you've got there.
"B" states that s/he has attended "contemporary" services at church(es) that had no theatre/drama; no dance; no women in leadership roles (pastor, elder, deacon, bishop); nobody speaking in tongues; no amplifiers, drums, electric guitars, different instruments; and no preaching a "sugar coated" gospel almost entirely about love and nothing about hell & damnation. "B" is saying that s/he has attended "contemporary" services that utilized no special gimmicks. That's remarkable!

If services have absolutely "none of the above," then what makes the services "contemporary?" The purpose of "contemporary" services is to make church more attractive and appealing, yea entertaining, to younger people and especially to the "unchurched," to get them into the seats (not pews), keep them interested, and keep them coming back. If traditional services without frills won't bring 'em in, then some gimmick(s) must be added. Contemporary services allegedly preach the "same Gospel" as traditional services do, but the difference is that everything is done in a non-traditional manner utilizing various contemporary gimmick(s), such as entertainment. Without gimmicks, without additional influences to boost interest in worship, services are merely traditional. Of course, not every "contemporary" church manifests the same set of "contemporary" gimmicks, yet gimmicks they do manifest in one way or another. They must or be "traditional."

Services are most commonly made "contemporary" if their gimmicks mirror those from the arts and entertainment industry: theater; drama; dance; pop/rock music with praise teams and assorted trappings (particularly amplifiers, drums, electric guitars); and preachers who mimic stand-up comedians. There may also be "food courts" (concession stands) selling pre-service snacks as in common theaters. Even newer churches are often (but not always) constructed to have the look and feel of performing arts centers.

Another gimmick is to appeal to various special-interest groups such as the Women's Movement and Gay Rights Movement. Having women, gays, and lesbians in leadership roles satisfies the PC crowd. Such churches are not only seen as "contemporary" but as "progressive."

I've been to "contemporary" services that exhibited virtually "all of the above" on B's list. The exception: no one spoke in tongues. There were Christmas and Easter dramas replacing worship services; teenage girls sometimes performing interpretive dance during a service; pop/rock music with a praise team and assorted trappings and instruments; a female minister to senior adults; and a rather crude pastor who, though he didn't "sugar coat" the message, polluted it nonetheless with an alternative approach. As he stood behind a clear acrylic podium, he elicted laughter from time to time with "witticisms," such as saying he had to be sure that his "fly" was zipped up beforehand! So much for comedy in worship services!

The bottom line: Traditional services need no gimmicks to attract the faithful. The pure Word of God and worship in spirit and in truth will suffice. Contemporary services rely on gimmicks to bring in the entertainment seekers.

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Dr. Franklin Haliburton
Dr. Franklin Haliburton

May 10th, 2006, 4:06 pm #28

Dr. Crump,

My understanding of contemporary is more in line with being current, modern or relevant to the day. Does one have to include gimmicks to be contemporary?

"The bottom line: Traditional services need no gimmicks to attract the faithful. The pure Word of God and worship in spirit and in truth will suffice. Contemporary services rely on gimmicks to bring in the entertainment seekers."

Have you been to many contemporary services? Did you notice any difference if you have?

Would you share with me the order of where you worship now?

Respectfully,
Frank
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PPB
PPB

May 14th, 2006, 3:31 am #29

Dr. Haliburton,

Actually, contemporary services incorporate several styles of worship. The main theme is not that it is "relevant", which is what all worship should be no matter the "style".

Contemporary has to do with meeting the wants and needs of today's society. It is actually based on a marketing design and was begun by non-denominational churches back in the 80's. I can remember the books that came out on the subject for preachers and leaders of churches. It was only accepted by a few congregations until ministers like Rick Warren finally set out a "growth plan" or marketing plan for churches based on basic marketing principals.

From what I remember and from the meetings that elders and preachers attended, contemporary services are specifically designed to attract the following:

1) youth
2) young single adults
3) young families
4) those who don't like the more serious and rigid services
5) upper-middle class with social connections

The services are created to overcome the following issues:

1) Youths' short attention spans
2) today's need for immediate gratification
3) need for entertainment and "emotion"
4) dislike for in depth bible study
5) dislike of long sermons with many scriptural references
6) dislike of negatives such as "don'ts" that conflict with today's acceptable behaviors
7) dislike of the more serious, orderly type services
8) dislike of scriptural based sermons instead of story based

These issues are overcome by the following marketing ploys:
1) entertainment and excitement that is not directly correlated to scripture
2) short story based sermons or "self-help" type speeches - not always based on scripture
3) limitation of scriptural reference during the sermon
4) Positive information and scriptures - avoidance of anything considered negative or upsetting
5) Only negative scriptures are those that society as a whole agrees on - adultary, murder, etc.
6) The churches goal is to get the people to attend, learning the scriptures and God's full instructions is up to the individual member.
7) Social type setting - almost a "junior league" type atmosphere
8) Marketing that states the church is open to everyone no matter their belief - no changes required to become a member.
9) Removal of elders/deacons and the new titles like "shepherd" to make people feel more comfortable.
10) New songs that invite emotion and clapping to get people into the "feeling". No songs that evoke strong, deep, quiet emotions like some of the older songs (It is well, etc).

And yes, I have been to churches that abide by these goals and are pretty open about them. They are large churches - upperclass and very social. No real in depth bible study or knowledge. Shockingly lacking in true biblical knowledge in fact. I asked questions and the Shepherds and preacher became upset and angry - it was not their job to tell people what was a sin - that's up to the individual. Just the basics. The Houston metro area has a lot of them and I have attended several of them.

In a nutshell - they are not truly churches as they are not teaching the entire Bible for fear of upsetting someone or losing a member. I call them "lite churches". More of an entry level type assembly. I have to admit that the ones I attended were extremely empty, false, shallow type churches, and though the people were nice, they couldn't have held an in depth discussion if they had tried. I don't remember anyone even opening their bibles in class or service. It was all "lite" meaningless stuff that you can learn from a Zig Zigler tape. Very disappointing. No wonder they have such a high turnover of members - entertainment gets boring/in the way after a while if you are trying to develop a deep relationship with God.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 14th, 2006, 5:42 am #30

Thanks, PPB, I couldn't have said it better myself.
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