Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 13th, 2010, 4:31 am #11

Good evening Dr. Crump. Please be careful on that slippery slope!

Do you believe the book of Enoch is the "inspired word of God"?


ps: Ken has special shoes with suction cups on the soles.
Jesus and His apostles often quoted from established books of the Old Testament that we believe were inspired. The epistle of Jude, which we also believe is inspired, quoted from Enoch, a book that Christianity in general does not believe is inspired. Yet we have numerous examples throughout the Bible of inspired men quoting from what we believe are inspired books. Therefore, is Jude the only example of an inspired epistle quoting from non-inspired material, or should the very fact that Jude quotes from Enoch be a sufficient example to cause Christianity to re-evaluate its position that the Book of Enoch is not an inspired work?

Given the Biblical precedent of inspired men quoting from inspired books, can anyone give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work?
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Rocnar
Rocnar

July 13th, 2010, 7:11 pm #12

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. The fact of the matter is that there is no place in the written Word of God where God Himself through Scripture gives a specific list of the books that are to be placed in the Biblical Canon and those books that belong outside the Biblical Canon. A "Table of Contents" added by a printer in front of a Bible does not constitute such a list.
Dr. Crump, if I understand your logic correctly, are you saying there may be books in the Bible that may not belong in the Bible?
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Rocnar
Rocnar

July 13th, 2010, 8:46 pm #13

Jesus and His apostles often quoted from established books of the Old Testament that we believe were inspired. The epistle of Jude, which we also believe is inspired, quoted from Enoch, a book that Christianity in general does not believe is inspired. Yet we have numerous examples throughout the Bible of inspired men quoting from what we believe are inspired books. Therefore, is Jude the only example of an inspired epistle quoting from non-inspired material, or should the very fact that Jude quotes from Enoch be a sufficient example to cause Christianity to re-evaluate its position that the Book of Enoch is not an inspired work?

Given the Biblical precedent of inspired men quoting from inspired books, can anyone give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work?
Dr. Crump, I will stick with the Church fathers and the 66 books of the Bible that were given to us through divine inspiration. I will not make any additions. Have a good day! I think we are done here.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 13th, 2010, 10:09 pm #14

I gather that "rocnar" (rancor) is unable to give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work. Yes, we are quite done here. Further arguments would be futile; in fact, most religious arguments are futile.
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Joe Spivy
Joe Spivy

July 14th, 2010, 1:41 pm #15

Jesus and His apostles often quoted from established books of the Old Testament that we believe were inspired. The epistle of Jude, which we also believe is inspired, quoted from Enoch, a book that Christianity in general does not believe is inspired. Yet we have numerous examples throughout the Bible of inspired men quoting from what we believe are inspired books. Therefore, is Jude the only example of an inspired epistle quoting from non-inspired material, or should the very fact that Jude quotes from Enoch be a sufficient example to cause Christianity to re-evaluate its position that the Book of Enoch is not an inspired work?

Given the Biblical precedent of inspired men quoting from inspired books, can anyone give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work?
There are examples of "uninspired" books and authors which are quoted and/or referenced in the Bible. There are some possible problems with taking a position that if something is quoted that makes it true or inspired.

The Bible includes quotes from uninspired individuals whose statements are false. The fact they are quoted does not validate the statement. For an example of this see Genesis 3:1-5.

The Old Testament contains numerous references to books which are otherwise unknown to us and for which there is no particular claim to divine inspiration. Examples would include the Book of Jashar (Joshua 10:13, 2 Samuel 1:18), the Book of the Annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41), the Records of Nathan the Prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29, 2 Chronicles 9:29) the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29), the visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chronicles 9:29), the Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29), and the records of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19). Some others which are mentioned have been associated or identified (by some) with known books of the Bible and I thought it best not to include them.

In the New Testament there are a number of quotations of pagan authors. Included among these would be Meander whose Thais 218 is quoted in 1 Corinthians 15:33, Epimenides' "Paradox" is quoted in Titus 1:12-13, and Aratus' Phaenomena 5 is quoted in Acts 17:28 (so also, possible, is Plato's The Timaeus in Acts 17:24).

The New Testament has over 100 quotations or allusions to non-canonical books. Certainly the Book of Enoch is quoted (Jude 4, 6, 13, 14-15, and 2 Peter 2:4, 3:13). So, it appears, is the Life of Adam and Eve (2 Corinthians 11:14 and 12:2) and the Assumption of Moses (Jude 9).

I'm not convinced the fact an individual, a letter, or a book is quoted necessarily implies that it is to be considered inspired.

Here's a link to an article you may wish to consider:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/42
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Rocnar
Rocnar

July 15th, 2010, 12:06 am #16

Thanks Joe for the information. I did not realize the Bible quoted that many outside sources.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

July 16th, 2010, 6:56 pm #17

You are NOT a disciple if you trust those who "private interpret" meaning "further expounding" or who corrupt the Word meaning "selling learning at retail." The same word speaks of adultery.

http://www.piney.com/Baptism.Mark.16.16.Saves.html

The REPUDIATION of Christ's command which connects "remission of sins with baptism" is one of the end time marks which fits perfectly with the rise of MUSIC which was introduced in the Garden of Eden by Lucifer (Zoe) who was the "singing and harp playing prostitute" which is consistent with the end time Babylon mother of harlots (Rev 17) whose "ministers" are speakers, singers and instrument players: John calls them SORCERERS and so all musical terms define closing the rational or spiritual mind so the garbage will be accepted by those lulled to sleep (the Locust-Muse code) so they can be given the sting of death.

This fits most of the latest spawn of preachers trained to go out and betray godly people. Rebeling against authority is one of the MARKS of Christ prophey about the CHILDREN in Isaiah3.

Jesus used a word (translated in both Latin and Greek) which defines those who do not COMPLY with "he that believeth AND is baptized SHALL be saved" as in REVOLT or TREACHEROUS. They in effect tell Jesus Christ that HE has no power to save.

Remembering that both Jesus through His Apostles were carrying out the search for the TINY REMNANT still alive in Jerusalem who had not bowed to Baal. And that baptism was FOR or IN ORDER to the remission of sins where one's PERSONAL faith is like filthy rags: it is THE FAITH of Jesus Christ which contains the power in contrast to THE LAW which was imposed on those not fit for salvation because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.

Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers
rejected the counsel of God against themselves,
being not baptized of him.

The MARK of the MEN who could not or as VIPERS not fit to be baptized would be baptized with WIND and FIRE as the VIPER race. Jesus then MARKED them with the prophecy of Isaiah 3 where the men are marked by music as effeminate:

Luke 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the MEN of this generation? and to what are they like?
Luke 7:32 They are like unto CHILDREN sitting in the marketplace
and calling one to another, and saying,
We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced;
we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept

The Latin for Mark 16:16 defines FAITH as TRUST and not simple believing a fact

Mark 16.[16] qui crediderit et baptizatus fuerit salvus erit qui vero non crediderit condemnabitur

He that BELIEVETH complies with what is commanded.

LATIN:

A. Credo I. Orig. belonging to the lang. of business, to GIVE CREDIT. to give as a loan, to loan, lend, make or loan to any one: (vilicus) injussu domini credat nemini;
II. Transf. beyond the circle of business (very freq. in every period and species of composition).
A. With the prevailing idea of intended protection, to commit or consign something
to one for preservation, protection, etc., to intrust to one, = committo, commendo (cf. concredo)


GREEK:
4100. pisteuo, pist-yoo´-o; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially ones spiritual well-being to Christ): believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
2. COMPLY, hs oukh hupeixn oude pisteusn legeis; S.OT625, cf. 646 ;


BELIEVETH NOT does not mean "just haven't decided." THE BELIEVETH NOTS refuse to comply or OBEY the direct connection between Baptism and Salvation or remission of sins which is a clear statement of Jesus in several places.

Example:

Soph. OT 625
Oedipus Hardly. I desire your death, not your exile, so that I might show what a thing envy is.
Creon [625] Are you resolved not to yield or believe? (Pisteo)
Oedipus No, for you persuade me that you are unworthy of trust.
Creon No, for I see you are not sane

He that believeth not in Mark 16 says that Jesus is not worthy of trust. The lowly people "justified God" by being baptized: the Pharisees rejected the command of God by NOT being baptized. They made a conscious decision not to trust the INSTRUMENTAL MEANS Jesus had commanded.

Xen. Sym. 8.36 We could all come to one mind, I think, on the point I am trying to make, if we were to consider the question in this way: of two lads, the objects of the different types of love,
which one would a person prefer to trust (Pisteo) with his money, or his children,
or to lay under the obligation of a favour?
My own belief is that even the person whose love is founded on the loved one's physical beauty would in all these cases rather put his trust (Pisteuo) in him whose loveliness is of the spirit.

Diod. 12.15 Now at first glance a man sees nothing wise or outstanding in this law, but when it is explored deeply it is found to be justly worthy of praise.
For if the reason is sought out why he entrusted (Pisteuo) the property of orphans
to one group and the rearing of them to another, the lawgiver is seen to have shown
an unusual kind of ingenuity

"Raw" faith really has no meaning. You might believe that a floating chunk of ice can support your weight and save your live: you have no FAITH in the way it is used to mean TRUST if you refuse to step on that which you "think" might save your life.

BELIEVETH is defined as the <b>opposite of APISTOS or he that "believeth not."</b>

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned

Apistos To express doubt that it is possible.
I. Pass., not to be trusted, and so:
1. of persons and their acts, not trusty, faithless,
by untrustworthy, groundless confidence, Th.1.120; shifty, unreliable, Pl.Lg.775d.
II. Act., mistrustful, incredulous, suspicious, Od.14.150;
b. in NT, unbelieving, 1 Ep.Cor.6.6, a
2. disobedient, disloyal, S.Fr. 627: c. gen., A.Th.876; ekhein apiston . . anarkhian polei, i.e. anarkhian ekhein apeithousan t polei, ib.1035, cf. E.IT1476.
2. Act., distrustfully, suspiciously, Th.3.83; a. tina diatheinai D.20.22.
b. treacherously


Of the numerous examples of how the word is used:

Soph. Trach. 1228
Heracles
No other man but you must ever marry
this woman who has lain with me in love;
no, you, my son, must take her for your own.
Consent! [Pietho listen to, obey)
To disrespect [Apisteo disobey]
me in small matters
destroys the greater favors you have done


he that believeth not shall be damned because that person has looked the free gift of spiritual life in the face and insulted the Grace of Jesus Christ--I think without redemption if they make a profession out of teaching the opposite of what the Bible and historic scholarship confirms.

Never trust your soul to one who is WAGED to sell you the FREE WATER OF THE WORD: Music as sorcery in the Revelation 18 often ment to slip you a "drug" while singing you a lovely song.
You must grasp that God does not speak to the WORLD or to the WISE. The WISE are "Sophos" or 'Sophia" lusting: the Sophia-Zoe female side always opposed the Jehovah-Logos side.

We have shown that the SOPHIA (mother of ZOE) side depends on those skilled in rhetoric (lying), singing, playing instruments, playing drama and playing with one another.

The Jehovah-Logos (father of a son) spiritual (rational) RACE of earthlings organize a school (only) of the Word (only). You could NEVER find ten straight males who would set up an institute depending on lying rhetoric (proof texting and self-speaking), singers, actors and musicians. If you FLASHED the PERSONA of religious performers in the Synagogue, Ekklesia or the VFW you would get hurt in ALL of the right places. Only in "church" can you engage in virtual sex with the "spirit" as promoted by the wineskins-vineyard movement.

You will find NO RECORDED Bible, secular history, the classics, church history or founders of protestantism who did not RECOGNIZE and CAST OUT those marked by The Book of Enoch. That defines the garden of Eden, the musical fall from grace at Mount Sinai and the practices of the sacrificial system after God abandoned them to worship the STARS.

When I got tired, I had collected 3 dozen ancient documents telling the same Enoch story (Romans 1, 1 Cor etal.).

http://www.piney.com/MuIndex2.html#Music_

Facts don't count: only perceptions and persona counts. You might be surprised at how many writers (Including Christian Church writers ) who identify the modern 'worship system' as the MARK and CAUSE of the effeminate. That's why up to 1/2 of the godly people FLEE BABYLON when they recognize the "voice" and actions of most Worship Leaders. You have to worry a lot about the "leadership" when they look for the MARK: Most of this may be the result of letting the LEADER'S WIVES take a leading role in procuring the next preacher who has his "ministry team" all lined up to come ROB THE WIDOWS.
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Dave
Dave

July 17th, 2010, 4:21 pm #18

Put it any way you want it, but Enoch is not part of the Holy Word of God for a reason. William Crump could be added to the list along with Ken Sublett who just don't believe that God is Powerful enough to keep His Holy Word intact, and fully sufficient. If God would have wanted Enoch to be a part of the Holy Scriptures, you can believe that it would have been.
Jude does not claim to quote from the book of Enoch, but DOES quote from Enoch himself. The Scripture in Jude coincides with the purported book of Enoch, yet this DOES not give it any more legitimate credence than Tolkien's book, The Hobbit.
Those who would give Enoch legitimacy as Inspired Scripture would also ADD other books as well. God led certain men to compile and translate the FULLY COMPLETE Scriptures. Do William Crump and Ken Sublett believe themselves to be vicars of God, led to add more books to the fully complete Word?
Enoch showed himself to be a special man of God, one who loved God, and taken from this earth before death. Let us leave him honored as such.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 17th, 2010, 10:49 pm #19

There are examples of "uninspired" books and authors which are quoted and/or referenced in the Bible. There are some possible problems with taking a position that if something is quoted that makes it true or inspired.

The Bible includes quotes from uninspired individuals whose statements are false. The fact they are quoted does not validate the statement. For an example of this see Genesis 3:1-5.

The Old Testament contains numerous references to books which are otherwise unknown to us and for which there is no particular claim to divine inspiration. Examples would include the Book of Jashar (Joshua 10:13, 2 Samuel 1:18), the Book of the Annals of Solomon (1 Kings 11:41), the Records of Nathan the Prophet (1 Chronicles 29:29, 2 Chronicles 9:29) the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite (2 Chronicles 9:29), the visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chronicles 9:29), the Book of Gad the Seer (1 Chronicles 29:29), and the records of the Seers (2 Chronicles 33:19). Some others which are mentioned have been associated or identified (by some) with known books of the Bible and I thought it best not to include them.

In the New Testament there are a number of quotations of pagan authors. Included among these would be Meander whose Thais 218 is quoted in 1 Corinthians 15:33, Epimenides' "Paradox" is quoted in Titus 1:12-13, and Aratus' Phaenomena 5 is quoted in Acts 17:28 (so also, possible, is Plato's The Timaeus in Acts 17:24).

The New Testament has over 100 quotations or allusions to non-canonical books. Certainly the Book of Enoch is quoted (Jude 4, 6, 13, 14-15, and 2 Peter 2:4, 3:13). So, it appears, is the Life of Adam and Eve (2 Corinthians 11:14 and 12:2) and the Assumption of Moses (Jude 9).

I'm not convinced the fact an individual, a letter, or a book is quoted necessarily implies that it is to be considered inspired.

Here's a link to an article you may wish to consider:
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/42
An important point about Enoch is that Jude says Enoch's words were a prophecy about God's judgment. OK, so some inspired men elsewhere in the Bible quoted from allegedly uninspired books. Inspired men would not have implied that those books contained important doctrine or Truth if those books were not inspired. Yet we must not overlook the FACT that Enoch made a prophecy about God. Would he have done so had he not been inspired? Again, since Jude says Enoch's statement was a prophecy about God, then Enoch had to have been inspired.
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Rocnar
Rocnar

July 18th, 2010, 10:43 pm #20

Dr. Crump, does this mean you are a "change agent"? How does the main line COC feel about this matter?
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