Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 11th, 2010, 7:53 pm #21

Remember that:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses,
but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The Law of Moses is defined ONLY in the Torah.
There is no command, example or inference of Moses commanding instrumental music: in fact in Numbers 10 he outlawed it when the assembly (synagogue) came together for instruction in the word of God only.

The Law of Moses was given because of musical idolatry but it was good in that it regulated people to protect the weak from the strong. The Law of Moses regulated the physical lives but was never intended to make the conscience clean.

Deut. 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments,
which I teach you, for to do them,

1. that ye may live,
2. and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.

Deut. 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you,
neither shall ye diminish ought from it,
that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

ONLY the prophets by the Spirit of Christ regulated the spiritual lives: Moses regulated their secular lives.

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead

The records of the NOT-commanded Monarchy, temple and sacrificial system is not the Law of Moses: it is the Law imposed by Kings because they had been abandoned to Babylonianism.

NO MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN THE LAW OF MOSES FOR WORSHIP

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Anonymous
Anonymous

December 13th, 2010, 2:56 am #22

Brother Crump,

The Bible actually DOES say to praise God with instruments and clapping. Directly in the OT, and instruments can be a "necessary inference" (CENI) from the NT when it says to sing "with psalms".

Concerning the OT vs. NT argument that you and others so often make, Jesus did not come to abolish the OT law but to fulfill it. Thus, things like sacrificing animals is no longer necessary because Jesus is the sacrificial lamb. There is no longer a need for a High Priest because he is, and so forth. It is the C of C that says all in the OT is abolished. I love the one people use about how all 10 Commandments were abolished, but then 9 of them "carried over". If this is the case, why could clapping and instruments not be "carried over". There is singing in the OT which is obviously carried over.

If you believe it is wrong to worship God with instruments and clapping then you definitely should not. I do not, or very rarely, even though I no longer believe it is wrong.

But much of the "patternism" mentioned by those in the C of C is not from Scripture but man.

For example, Scripture teaches baptism. This would not be man-made. However, Scripture does not address how many worship leaders or speakers. The text that provides the clearest insight is 1 Corinthians 14:26ff about people taking turns with hymns and prophesying.

-Sonny
When one man uses the worn out argument of "Since Christ fulfilled the Old Law, animal sacrifices and all the other rituals are no longer practiced in Christianity," we know that some people just will not accept the Truth, even when it stares them straight in the face.
You can't say that "all the other rituals are no longer practiced" just because animal sacrifices were done away with.
Christ did not do away with ALL those rituals.....He DID do away with animal sacrifices.
Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Murder
21 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Did Jesus do away with the command 'You shall not murder?' No. He just added that not only murder is wrong but being angry with a brother is wrong.
Where did the command of 'You shall not murder' come from?
Yup! The Old Testament.
Have you never heard, when mentioning the Lord's Supper...the term of the Lord's Supper being the 'passover of the New Convenant?'
Of coures you have.
The New Testament just made better the rituals of the Old Law. We now have the ONE Sacrifice....which means we don't need animal sacrifices. We now have a new and better passover.
Now tell me.....how does doing away with instrumental music work into the picture here?
You got it....it doesn't. It is a Houdini like farce by those who want THEIR ritual of a capella only, non-instrumental music to be the TRADITION that is ONLY used to worship God. One can make a melody in their heart with or without an instrument. The instrument does not keep one from singing and making a melody in their heart to God.
Those who want the 'voice only' will resort to anything to make sure that their TRADITION is upheld as the only Scriptural means of worship to our God. Their problem??? It does not have the backing from the Word of God.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 13th, 2010, 4:32 am #23

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Everything CONCERNING Jesus was fulfilled and then the LAW ceased. The law was added because of the transgression of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai. God turned them over to worship the starry host. So everything under the king, kingdom, temple and animal slaughter was NOT commanded by God but imposed when He abandoned them to Babylonianism because they had been sentenced to go "beyond Babylon" because of musical idolatry.

The commanded ACT is to SPEAK
The commanded RESOURCE is THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN
The purpose was to TEACH that which is written (none of your own words Isaiah 58)
You can teach "how to dismantle an atomic bomb" while a singy-clappy praise team sings, claps, playes and gyrates also. But that would show terminal contempt for the teacher, wouldn't it? So, Why treat God in Christ worse than the garbage collector telling you how to prepare your garbage? God ahead! Make God's day.

All of the singing (ode) words EXCLUDES instruments.
So, I hope that you SING, then pause, THEN play your instruments: EACH one of you.

Melody is parallel to Grace (Colossians 3:16) and the PLACE is IN the heart or spirit.

Psallo is always translated SING in the Old Testament.
Psallo means pluck with your FINGERS and never with a PLECTRUM.
No guitar picks, flutes, drums, keyboards.

All of the cases where Psallo means Plucking some stringed instrument points to older males trying to seduce a younger male.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 13th, 2010, 5:16 am #24

When one man uses the worn out argument of "Since Christ fulfilled the Old Law, animal sacrifices and all the other rituals are no longer practiced in Christianity," we know that some people just will not accept the Truth, even when it stares them straight in the face.
You can't say that "all the other rituals are no longer practiced" just because animal sacrifices were done away with.
Christ did not do away with ALL those rituals.....He DID do away with animal sacrifices.
Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Murder
21 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, Raca, is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, You fool! will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Did Jesus do away with the command 'You shall not murder?' No. He just added that not only murder is wrong but being angry with a brother is wrong.
Where did the command of 'You shall not murder' come from?
Yup! The Old Testament.
Have you never heard, when mentioning the Lord's Supper...the term of the Lord's Supper being the 'passover of the New Convenant?'
Of coures you have.
The New Testament just made better the rituals of the Old Law. We now have the ONE Sacrifice....which means we don't need animal sacrifices. We now have a new and better passover.
Now tell me.....how does doing away with instrumental music work into the picture here?
You got it....it doesn't. It is a Houdini like farce by those who want THEIR ritual of a capella only, non-instrumental music to be the TRADITION that is ONLY used to worship God. One can make a melody in their heart with or without an instrument. The instrument does not keep one from singing and making a melody in their heart to God.
Those who want the 'voice only' will resort to anything to make sure that their TRADITION is upheld as the only Scriptural means of worship to our God. Their problem??? It does not have the backing from the Word of God.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The Scripture clearly identifies or distinguishes two types of traditions. Either:[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]It is an APOSTOLIC TRADITION "received of us" (apostles). "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us" (II Thess. 3:6). "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (II Thess. 2:15).[/color]

    -------------------------- or --------------------------

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]It is a MAN-MADE TRADITION. "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ" (Col. 2:8).[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]As far as I know, the word "tradition" is not even mentioned in the Old Testament (at least in the KJV). But that's OK if instrumental music was not considered a tradition. It was used by the heathens in their idolatrous worship of their gods. It was also used by musicians (of course) like David, king of Israel, even though there was no directive from God.

In the "Christian" era, the Roman Catholic Church first introduced the use of musical instruments centuries after the church of Christ was established. We know about the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy and their countless man-made traditions.

There is no record of the church of the first century using musical instruments in the gathering of saints. Christ did not teach it. The apostles, in their epistles to various churches of Christ (in Ephesus, Thessalonica, Colosse, Corinth, etc), did not direct believers in Christ to operate mechanical music in the assembly.

Now, Dave and the Change Agents, have discovered that the apostles forgot all about instrumental music -- nothing was mentioned in the New Testament -- and are in full agreement with the papacy and the Roman Catholic Church that something is just missing when the saints gather or assemble together for edification and teaching and admonition.

Something is wrong with that picture!!![/color]
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Dave
Dave

December 13th, 2010, 4:41 pm #25

<font> That we may be no more children. <font>Having spoken of that perfect manhood, towards which we are proceeding throughout the whole course of our life, he reminds us that, during such a progress, we ought not to resemble children. An intervening period is thus pointed out between childhood and man's estate. Those are "children" who have not yet advanced a step in the way of the Lord, but who still hesitate, -- who have not yet determined what road they ought to choose, but move sometimes in one direction and sometimes in another, always doubtful, always wavering. Those, again, who are thoroughly founded in the doctrine of Christ, though not yet perfect, have so much wisdom and vigor as to choose properly, and proceed steadily, in the right course. Thus we find that the life of believers, marked by a constant desire and progress towards those attainments which they shall ultimately reach, bears a resemblance to youth. At no period of this life are we men. But let not such a statement be carried to the other extreme, as if there were no progress beyond childhood. After being born to Christ, we ought to grow, so as "not to be children in understanding." (1 Corinthians 14:20.) Hence it appears what kind of Christianity the Popish system must be, when the pastors labor, to the utmost of their power, to keep the people in absolute infancy.

<font>Tossed to and fro, and carried about. <font>The distressing hesitation of those who do not place absolute reliance on the word of the Lord, is illustrated by two striking metaphors. The first is taken from small ships, exposed to the fury of the billows in the open sea, holding no fixed course, guided neither by skill nor design, but hurried along by the violence of the tempest. The next is taken from straws, or other light substances, which are carried hither and thither as the wind drives them, and often in opposite directions. Such must be the changeable and unsteady character of all who do not rest on the foundation of God's eternal truth. It is their just punishment for looking, not to God, but to men. Paul declares, on the other hand, that faith, which rests on the word of God, stands unshaken against all the attacks of Satan.

<font>By every wind of doctrine. <font>By a beautiful metaphor, all the doctrines of men, by which we are drawn away from the simplicity of the gospel, are called winds. God gave us his word, by which we might have placed ourselves beyond the possibility of being moved; but, giving way to the contrivances of men, we are carried about in all directions.

<font>By the cunning of men. <font>There will always be impostors, who make insidious attacks upon our faith; but, if we are fortified by the truth of God, their efforts will be unavailing. Both parts of this statement deserve our careful attention. When new sects, or wicked tenets, spring up, many persons become alarmed. But the attempts of Satan to darken, by his falsehoods, the pure doctrine of Christ, are at no time interrupted; and it is the will of God that these struggles should be the trial of our faith. When we are informed, on the other hand, that the best and readiest defense against every kind of error is to bring forward that doctrine which we have learned from Christ and his apostles, this surely is no ordinary consolation.

With what awful wickedness, then, are Papists chargeable, who take away from the word of God everything like certainty, and maintain that there is no steadiness of faith, but what depends on the authority of men! If a man entertain any doubt, it is in vain to bid him consult the word of God: he must abide by their decrees. But we have embraced the law, the prophets, and the gospel. Let us therefore confidently expect that we shall reap the advantage which is here promised, -- that all the impostures of men will do us no harm. They will attack us, indeed, but they will not prevail. We are entitled, I acknowledge, to look for the dispensation of sound doctrine from the church, for God has committed it to her charge; but when Papists avail themselves of the disguise of the church for burying doctrine, they give sufficient proof that they have a diabolical synagogue.

The Greek word kubei>a, which I have translated cunning, is taken from players at dice, who are accustomed to practice many arts of deception. The words, ejn panourgi>a|, by craftiness, intimate that the ministers of Satan are deeply skilled in imposture; and it is added, that they keep watch, in order to insnare, (proan th~v pla>nhv.) All this should rouse and sharpen our minds to profit by the word of God. If we neglect to do so, we may fall into the snares of our enemies, and endure the severe punishment of our sloth. [CALVIN].http://www.biblestudyguide.org/comment/ ... .v.iii.htm </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>
I wonder why......God never sent a written public rebuke for David playing the instrument.
And NO.....Amos 6 is not such a rebuke. I
If you think about it....Amos 6 PROVES that God was pleased with David and where his heart was. Amos 6 warns against those who would wrongly use the instrument for something other than pleasing God. LIKE David.....meaning musicians.....not David being wrong.
Why wasn't there a rebuke for David and his playing? Because David sought to worship God with his heart. He used his ability to play to send that heart felt message to God.

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Dave
Dave

December 13th, 2010, 5:27 pm #26

Should have used another APPROPRIATE term, other than 'heart felt.' I knot that makes you legalists livid.
Isn't 'personal savior' another term that makes you pull hair out?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 13th, 2010, 5:59 pm #27

I wonder why......God never sent a written public rebuke for David playing the instrument.
And NO.....Amos 6 is not such a rebuke. I
If you think about it....Amos 6 PROVES that God was pleased with David and where his heart was. Amos 6 warns against those who would wrongly use the instrument for something other than pleasing God. LIKE David.....meaning musicians.....not David being wrong.
Why wasn't there a rebuke for David and his playing? Because David sought to worship God with his heart. He used his ability to play to send that heart felt message to God.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You (Dave) and David, king of Israel, a very skilled musician, have much in common: you are a musician, too, correct? Is it any surprise that you and the king would come up with the idea of using man-invented musical devices in worship to God?

Admit it: God has NEVER directed His followers (NOT even in the Old Testament) to worship Him with inanimate, lifeless, soul-less musical objects. (This has nothing to do with whether or not God abolished instrumental music under the new covenant.) Instead, David the musician concocted the notion that God would count his musical skills toward righteousness.[/color]

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is no command or directive from God Himself that musical objects be used to worship Him -- not even in the Old Testament.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing to ABOLISH that (instrumental music) which was never established to begin with.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing in Scripture (including the O.T.) where God states: "I am pleased with your playing all sorts of instruments of music: therefore, continue in them." Now, it pleased the king of Israel. It is also pleasing to you, Dave, I know. But DO NOT EQUATE what pleases you with what pleases God.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Why would God rebuke someone for using musical devices when He has not directed His followers to do so?[/color]</li>[/list]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 13th, 2010, 6:08 pm #28

Should have used another APPROPRIATE term, other than 'heart felt.' I knot that makes you legalists livid.
Isn't 'personal savior' another term that makes you pull hair out?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Where have you been? There is nothing wrong with the expression "personal Savior."

I'm just appalled that you agree with the implication that a sinner (one outside of Christ) can only believe (have faith) and be forgiven of all his past sins (washed away) and become God's child even WITHOUT or PRIOR TO "putting on Christ in BAPTISM."[/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

December 13th, 2010, 8:16 pm #29

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You (Dave) and David, king of Israel, a very skilled musician, have much in common: you are a musician, too, correct? Is it any surprise that you and the king would come up with the idea of using man-invented musical devices in worship to God?

Admit it: God has NEVER directed His followers (NOT even in the Old Testament) to worship Him with inanimate, lifeless, soul-less musical objects. (This has nothing to do with whether or not God abolished instrumental music under the new covenant.) Instead, David the musician concocted the notion that God would count his musical skills toward righteousness.[/color]

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is no command or directive from God Himself that musical objects be used to worship Him -- not even in the Old Testament.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing to ABOLISH that (instrumental music) which was never established to begin with.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing in Scripture (including the O.T.) where God states: "I am pleased with your playing all sorts of instruments of music: therefore, continue in them." Now, it pleased the king of Israel. It is also pleasing to you, Dave, I know. But DO NOT EQUATE what pleases you with what pleases God.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Why would God rebuke someone for using musical devices when He has not directed His followers to do so?[/color]</li>[/list]
It is inconsistent to say that certain Scriptures do not apply out of convenience.

Is Psalm 23 a teaching/directive from God through man (David) or only from man (David)?

Is Psalm 150 (praise God with IM) a teaching/directive from God through man (author unknown) or only from man?

Is Ephesians 4:5 (one baptism) a teaching/directive from God through man (Paul) or only from man (Paul)?

Is Exodus 20 (10 Commandments) a teaching/directive from God through man (Moses) or only from man (Moses)?

Is 2 Chronicles 29:25 a teaching/directive from God through man (David,Gad,Nathan and now Hezekiah) or only from man (David,Gad,Nathan,Hezekiah)?

2 Chronicles 29:35 states "So the service of the temple of the LORD was reestablished." Every indication is that Hezekiah's restoration of the temple, including instruments, was a positive reform that pleased God. vs. 25 even says "this was commanded BY THE LORD through his prophets."

Even most conservatives in the C of C say the IM of the OT was from God, but was limited to the O.T.

However, the minority of conservatives on this site say this is not even from God. They disregard Scriptures saying God was behind the implementing of instruments through David and the prophets. They choose a convenient hermeneutic that will uphold their traditions and dogmas. Furthermore, they bind their traditions on others.

In conclusion, it is inconsistent to say that certain Scriptures do not apply out of convenience. I have not dodged Ephesians 5:19 or Colossians 3:16. Some on this site dodge OT Scriptures and offer a slant on Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16. One can make melody in their heart while singing and playing an instrument simultaneously, just like one can sing without an instrument and NOT make melody in their heart.

-Sonny
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Anonymous
Anonymous

December 13th, 2010, 9:22 pm #30

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You (Dave) and David, king of Israel, a very skilled musician, have much in common: you are a musician, too, correct? Is it any surprise that you and the king would come up with the idea of using man-invented musical devices in worship to God?

Admit it: God has NEVER directed His followers (NOT even in the Old Testament) to worship Him with inanimate, lifeless, soul-less musical objects. (This has nothing to do with whether or not God abolished instrumental music under the new covenant.) Instead, David the musician concocted the notion that God would count his musical skills toward righteousness.[/color]

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is no command or directive from God Himself that musical objects be used to worship Him -- not even in the Old Testament.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing to ABOLISH that (instrumental music) which was never established to begin with.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing in Scripture (including the O.T.) where God states: "I am pleased with your playing all sorts of instruments of music: therefore, continue in them." Now, it pleased the king of Israel. It is also pleasing to you, Dave, I know. But DO NOT EQUATE what pleases you with what pleases God.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Why would God rebuke someone for using musical devices when He has not directed His followers to do so?[/color]</li>[/list]
1. There is no command or directive from God Himself that musical objects be used to worship Him -- not even in the Old Testament.
ANSWER--Donnie, did God give you a directive for what time you were supposed to get up and get ready for work this week? Does the Scriptures tell us that David was directed by God to use a sling to slay Goliath? Does the Scriptures tell us that David asked for authorization from God to use the sling? You can only ASSUME that where there is silence in the Scriptures about a subject, then it surely should not be done. Your assumption is wrong! David didn't NEED an authorization to play for God. Again, if playing for God, by David, was displeasing, we would have known about it. Uzzah died for touching the ark. Why? Because there was a directive for NOT touching it. I still haven't found the command against playing while we sing. David didn't hear it either.

2. There is nothing to ABOLISH that (instrumental music) which was never established to begin with.
ANSWER--It WAS established as legitimate worship from David to our God. If you don't believe that then you don't accept Psalms as Inspired Scripture. Again, why would God allow Inspired Scripture to come from the pen of David, if He wasn't pleased? Donnie, now is the time to go back to your circular logic of "If we don't accept burnt animal sacrifices then we can't accept anything David's playing.' Hey, if the Muslims can condemn the NT as being inaccurate, then why don't you do the same for the Old Testament?

3. There is nothing in Scripture (including the O.T.) where God states: "I am pleased with your playing all sorts of instruments of music: therefore, continue in them." Now, it pleased the king of Israel. It is also pleasing to you, Dave, I know. But DO NOT EQUATE what pleases you with what pleases God.
ANSWER--WRONG Donnie.--Acts 13 says "22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do. When God wasn't please with David, God let David know. What did he say about David's playing? Exactly! Are we to assume that God was pleased with David's playing? AGAIN, when God was NOT happy with David he was disciplined, and God was pleased with his confession. Did God call David down about his playing? Did David ever offer up a confession for playing instruments? Why didn't David do so? BECAUSE David knew that he WAS pleasing God with his playing, for David played for God! How is that for EQUATING what pleases God?

4. Why would God rebuke someone for using musical devices when He has not directed His followers to do so?
ANSWER---a better question is....Why wouldn't God let us know that He was displeased with David's playing if He wasn't pleased? Acts 13 says "22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.
Again, Donnie, did God rebuke David for his sins? Did God let David know, through Nathan, that his adultery and dealings with Uriah were not pleasing to Him? Did God rebuke and discipline David for playing his harp?
This isn't Donnie's logic....it is called VALID logic. So Donnie, as William Crump says, this is put to rest whether you like it or not.....God didn't command worship by instruments.....that is never been the the point. The point is that when God was displeased about something....man always KNEW ABOUT IT!!! Same thing today. That is why we are led by the Spirit. We do not have a direct command for everything, hence the example for the Great Commission and us being told to "GO." Jesus didn't tell us HOW to go and the examples of going then are different from us using a car, or the internet, or a plane, etc. today.
Donnie, I know this....you know what is right! You have been shown what is right. It gets to a point where all you are doing is arguing because you are too arrogant to be wrong.
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