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ConcernedMembers
ConcernedMembers

October 24th, 2002, 12:16 am #1

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Last edited by ConcernedMembers on October 24th, 2002, 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike Riley
Mike Riley

December 7th, 2003, 7:46 am #2

-----Original Message-----
From: mriley [mailto:mriley@constant.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:17 PM
To: Donnie Cruz
Subject: Appreciation And Encouragement

Donnie,

My name is Mike Riley and I'm a member of the Lord's church (Montana St. COC) in El Paso, Texas http://www.theseeker.org/cgi-local/city ... ty=El+Paso. For several months, I've been looking at the good Bible answers that you've been providing (as well as other members of the church) on the IBelieve.com website to respondents. I appreciate your study and knowledge of God's Word and just wanted to send you an e-mail encouraging you to keep up the good work defending the faith!

A Brother In Christ,

Mike Riley
Bible Class Teacher
Montana St. COC
El Paso, Texas

P.S. I got your e-mail address from one of your answers to a respondent - hope you don't mind my writing you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-----Original Message-----
From: Donnie [mailto:donniecruz@msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 11:42 PM
To: 'mriley'
Cc: donniecruz@msn.com
Subject: Re: Appreciation And Encouragement

Mike,

You have made my year! It is so difficult to discuss salvation issues on IBelieve.com because of the posters’ varying backgrounds. My understanding is that a cofC site merged with the IBelieve.com site—Baptist-affiliated (?). While the 2 groups are closer to each other in doctrine than any other combination groups, I think the two simply don’t mix together—especially in regard to baptism. It’s even complicated by the fact that many of the posters who have “cofC” leanings (or with strong Restoration Movement backgrounds) have unfortunately disregarded or disavowed their heritage. They align themselves with sides other than our own—would you believe that? In addition, the Charismatic folks (Pentecostal) are extremely loud and vocal (I think you know what I mean) in opposing anything associated with the church of Christ. Anyway, it is very discouraging because no matter how plainly the scriptures express things, they’re simply ignored and rejected. I’m surprised but glad that you were able to find my e-mail address which I think I may have listed only a few times—when I wanted some of my “friends” there (ones that agree with me) to correspond with me. But you just gave me an idea: I may start appending my e-mail address when I post something major.

Actually, most of my work (writing articles and posting, i.e.) is with the Concerned Members website. You did not mention this. So, I’m assuming that you may not have heard of it. I have sent a letter to over 1200 congregations which had their e-mail addresses in a database. (For content, I am attaching the letter below.) But even that effort was very discouraging—it’s been difficult for me to take it personally that there are so many congregations of the church who are nonchalant, when it comes to problems and issues that are prevalent in the brotherhood. Well, in short, let me just introduce you to this website and, hopefully, you will tell others about it, too. It is www.concernedmembers.com. You may go directly to www.concernedmembers.com/madison. Please let me know what you think of the sites.

I’m very glad for your e-mail. Please continue corresponding with me at your convenience.

Brotherly in Christ,

Donnie
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

December 7th, 2003, 9:23 pm #3

ibelieve.com went south. It was bought by the faithsite people (I believe) which seems to have begun as the official organ of Shellyism.

Really strange people do ibelieve but perhaps I did a bit to chase the hen-party for troubled women into the coffee shop. They truly went insane each time I exposed to them the pagan practices with music.

Before they retired from the strongly Baptist forum I posted a quotation from John Calvin. They got offended and harrassed the forum people until they BLACKLISTED me. Isn't that adult and presshussh? Here is what I quoted to confirm the view against hired preachers who don't go out and evangelize:

"These are Paul's words. Let them, then, show us that they are ministers of the gospel, and I will have no difficulty in conceding their right to stipend.
The ox must not be muzzled that treadeth out the corn [1 Cor. 9:9]. But is it not altogether at variance with reason that the ploughing oxen should starve, and the lazy asses be fed?

David said that I was CURSING. Blacklisted, yet! But that is what is happening as the musical fellas take over.

I think I came down too hard on their Zoe Group which teaches how to steal church houses with the PERFORMING ARTS. Well, anyway, I like concerned members: the moderator is fair and doesn't CENSURE TRUTH.

Ken
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Mike Riley
Mike Riley

December 8th, 2003, 7:44 am #4

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-----Original Message-----
From: mriley [mailto:mriley@constant.com]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:18 PM
To: Donnie
Subject: Re: Appreciation And Encouragement

Donnie,

I am familiar with Bro. Waddey's website http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com/index.html and his expose' of change agents within churches of Christ. It's sad to see the tremendous deterioration of the Lord's church over the past thirty to forty years (I … have been a Christian since 1960). I'm reminded of God's statement through Hosea in Hosea 4:6 concerning His people's lack of spiritual knowledge and the reason for that lack - "because thou hast rejected knowledge...." Their problem was the exact same problem as the Gentiles had in Romans 1:28, "And even as they did not like to retain (marginal reading - Or, to acknowledge) God in their knowledge....." When man rejects the knowledge of God, the only other alternative God has is to "give them over to a reprobate mind" (the NKJV and ESV renders the word reprobate as "debased" mind - a corrupt, depraved or perverted mind). We can plainly see this happening in our TV sitcoms. They have one now promoting homosexuals and of course how could we ever forget the "coming out" of Ellen Degenerate (that's what I call her!).

This idea of "acceptance" of everyone into the church without requiring them to "change" their corrupt and perverted lifestyles has resulted in the "Community Church" type of environment. Our preaching has been "watered down" as well - not wanting to "offend" anyone - thus resulting in the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle as well as unscriptural divorces, living together, etc.

Most (if not all) of the above problems stem from a lack of study of the scriptures by members of the body of Christ (2 Tim. 2:15). God wants "all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4) but this will not happen until members of the church once again start studying God's Word and make application of it in their lives. The church also needs to understand all of the false doctrines that are presently being promoted in the religious word and "earnestly contend for the faith" (Jude 3). This is not being done. In fact many members of the church have grown spiritually "lazy" and do very little (if any) study of God's Word at all. As a teacher of an adult Bible class, I'm constantly amazed at the lack of Bible knowledge even among members that have been in the church 50, 60 and 70 years. Satan is still "walking about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet. 5:8). Peter gives us the remedy to resisting Satan's devices in the very next verse, "Whom resist steadfast in the faith...." How can we "resist" Satan if we know very little about "the faith?"

This "downward spiral" of the churches of Christ began in the 60's when we started mimicking the Baptists by starting bus programs, building gymnasiums and "family life centers" for entertainment purposes. I mentioned this trend to several elders of the congregation we were members of and they couldn't understand my opposition to these "methods" to retain our young people. I'll end this e-mail message by including an article that I wrote in Aug. of 2001 concerning why we are "loosing" our young people. See if you don't agree with the import of the article.

Mike

El Paso
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John Waddey
John Waddey

December 16th, 2003, 10:47 am #5

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-----Original Message-----
From: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com [mailto:JOHNWADDEY@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 12:28 PM
To: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com
Subject: Monthly Report, Christianity: Then and Now

Dec. 12, 2003

Dear Friends and Supporters of Christianity: Then and Now:

Like the one-armed paper hanger, I am terribly busy this week, but I want to give you a brief update on our efforts for the Master and his church. I also want to tell how much I appreciate your prayers, support and encouragement.

Since last month we have lots of good news:

• A brother in Florida has volunteered to provide funds for mailing all the churches in that state. The addresses of the 310 churches are being added to our mailing list.

• A brother in New England is making it possible for us to add the church in Michigan, Indiana and much of Illinois.

• Smaller contributions have made it possible for us to add 35 churches in Louisiana, and additional congregations in Tennessee, California and Texas.

• Our next mailing will be to the leaders of approximately 3500 congregations.

• The Lord sent us a good sister who has volunteered to help me with managing the mailing list, which will take a burden off me and free up time for additional writing and correspondence.

• I have just completed the manuscript of a new book which is a collection of the book reviews and recommendations I have prepared and published in CTN. This includes in depth reviews of some 24 books published by the promoters of change and brief reviews and recommendations of good books that counter their false teaching. It will be published by Star Bible Publications and should be ready in a few short weeks.

• I will be putting together a second book in the next few weeks that will consist of articles addressing various areas of the change agenda and how we should deal with this pernicious movement.

• Each week I am receiving letters from fellow-Christians who are confronted with by the promoters of change in their congregations. They are good people who love the Lord, his church and his word and are pleading for help and advice on what they should do in response to this challenge to their faith. Each of these receives one or more letters of encouragement and suggestions on what they can do. Also materials are sent to educate and arm them for the fight they will have to engage in if their congregation is to be saved.

• We continue to send out our weekly email lessons addressing different aspects of the change movement and our website @ www.christianity-then-and-now.com is on line 24 hours per day, seven days of the week.

• The most exciting news is from a congregation in the East. A faithful couple moved to a church and found a man and wife, vigorously promoting the agenda of change. At first they were inclined to leave, but I encouraged them to stay and try to salvage the congregation. Several times each week we corresponded by email. As prayers were being offered up, I offered them suggestion on how to proceed and provided them suitable materials to share with other members. They talked with their preacher and other good members, explaining the danger before them. Eventually they confronted the agents of change. The end of the matter was, that the change agents and two of the families they had already won, left and went elsewhere. To God be the glory for this victory. If we should accomplish nothing else, this has made our efforts worthwhile.

Our goals are still to be able to mail the paper each month to the leaders of every congregation in the nation, all our missionaries and congregations in English speaking countries. Also we want to be able to mail bundles to all schools where young preachers are trained, if they will accept them. We want to provide books and tracts that will address and answer the errors of the promoters of change. Please pray that God will provide the means that these goals can be reached. Tell others about this effort and encourage them to get involved with us. If at all possible continue you support in the coming year.

Yours for the church we love,

John Waddey
12630 W. Foxfire Dr.
Sun City West, AZ 85375
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John Waddey
John Waddey

December 19th, 2003, 11:26 am #6

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-----Original Message-----
From: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com [mailto:JOHNWADDEY@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:47 PM
To: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com
Subject: RE: OCU's lectureship roster

Dear Friend in Christ: Check out the lectureship schedule of our brethren at Oklahoma Christian University. If you are concerned about the speakers they are featuring you may also want to write Dr. O'Neal a kindly letter expressing your concerns. Our Christian Schools are too valuable to abandon to the promoters of change. Pray and then do something to help. Below is the letter I have written. Yours in Christ, John Waddey



Dear Dr. O'Neal:

I trust this letter finds all well with you and your work with the University. My purpose in writing is to express my deep concern regarding some of the speakers you have announced for your upcoming Lectureship. I am sure you are aware of the problems surging throughout our brotherhood caused by the efforts of a band of people to promote unscriptural changes in the faith, worship and practice of our churches. Already numerous congregations have suffered strife and division and the problem is daily growing in intensity. It will likely equal the great division we suffered a century ago when the Disciples of Christ and Christian Churches divided the body over the use of instruments in worship, missionary organizations, women preachers and denominational practices.

Abilene Christian and Pepperdine Universities have already cast their lots with this change movement. Brethren have been hoping and praying that you and OCU would be loyal to the New Testament principles upon which the school was founded and operated over the years. However some of the people you have scheduled to speak on your lecture are promoters and advocates of the change movement. I am confident you are fully aware of the thinking of these folks as most informed brethren are, but I point them out for your reflection. There is no doubt where Mark Henderson of the Quail Springs Church, Dr. Randy Harris and David Padilla of the Oak Hills Church in San Antonio stand in this current conflict.

I need not remind you that these men preach a different gospel than that so effectively proclaimed by Bros. James O. Baird, Raymond Kelcy, Hugo McCord, Stafford North and other faithful men who have served OCU so well over the years.

God has placed in your hands the leadership of a great school with a wonderful campus and great resources. Please do not allow that priceless heritage to be compromised and destroyed by opening your doors to men who will corrupt and destroy the church of Christ of which we are members.

Oklahoma Christian University has served the church well in days past. May she do so in the years to come.

Be assured I am no untraconservative who is hostile to Christian Schools. All my children attended Christian Colleges, and I have encouraged dozens of young people to do the same. However, I love the church and cannot hold my peace while men try to corrupt her faith and worship.

Fraternally yours,

John Waddey, minister
Editor, Christianity: Then and Now
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

December 19th, 2003, 11:32 am #7

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In this thread: “KEEPING ABREAST: REVIEWS OF BOOKS AND MATERIALS RELATING TO THE CHANGE MOVEMENT,“ John’s post stated:

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From what I can see from Mr. Waddey's review and the comments from the Otter Creek Church of Christ website is that this is the kind of church that Madison wants to turn into.

I guess my question is this, why doesn't Otter Creek get as much attention as Woodmont Hills?
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John,

In regard to your statement in reference to the Otter Creek Church of Christ … “that this is the kind of church that Madison wants to turn into”—I find your observation rather interesting. I can only assume that you’ve been following the developments at Madison and Otter Creek. I did not know anything about Otter Creek (and even its close ties, it seems, with Lipscomb University), not until you asked about the author, Tim Woodroof. There is some semblance in the music ministry (i.e., strong emphasis on “musical worship”—programming and choreography) of both congregations. I would not be surprised if there are similarities in certain beliefs regarding tithing, grace or faith without works, less mention of the purpose of baptism—now a controversial issue in certain church of Christ congregations [would you believe this…of all things], etc. The change agents are so devious in stressing the “non-salvation” factor as a means to propagate major changes in scriptural doctrines, beliefs and practices.

So, Rubel Shelly’s Woodmont Hills “Family of God” Church is getting much attention? Max Lucado’s Oaks Hills [Community] Church in San Antonio, Texas, is certainly the latest big news in the brotherhood. But I don’t know the answer as to why Otter Creek doesn’t get as much attention as Woodmont Hills. Perhaps, Mr. Shelly is the reason.

Donnie
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John
John

December 19th, 2003, 2:06 pm #8

What I know about Otter Creek is what I've been finding on line the last few days on places like the Plumbline and Banner of Truth and from Mr. Waddey's review of Woodruff's book. It seems to be a very liberal church, and it seems curious that one that seems as liberal and infused with change agents doesn't get the same amout of attention that Woodmont Hills and Oak Hill does.

I think what you said about the main attention being focused on Shelley and Lucado is an interesting point. I guess Woodruff hasn't achieved that desired fame yet.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

December 20th, 2003, 10:27 am #9

John,

Is there a link to the Banner of Truth website? Or, if you have any information from it or from Plumbline, can you forward it to my e-mail address?

I’ve done some thinking (oops, that’s risky) on Woodmont Hills and Oak Hills and come up with this: Richland Hills with its [another one] “famous” leader, Rick Atchley as the “Senior Minister of the Word.” It’s another one of those “apostate” congregations—about the size of Oak Hills. The RHCC website is another one of those ashamed to headline its elders—you will need to go through layers of web pages to find a diagram of the “eldership hierarchy.” In addition, I would like to see its list of deaconesses.

While I’m thinking about hills, creeks and rivers, let me tell you about the Quail Springs Church of Christ with Mark Henderson as its “Senior Minister.” I don’t know anything about it except that the home page has “Quail Announcements” and first on the list is “A Christmas Season Celebration—a time of worship and celebration of the Christmas season.” “More” links to this schedule: "A Christmas Season Celebration” will take place at Quail on December 23, 7-8 PM, in the QSCC auditorium. This will be a time of worship and celebration of the Christmas season.”

Let me get back to my point. I guess you have figured out by now their commonality as far as this thing about the “hills” goes. Our brother Ken Sublett is very familiar with this “Look to the Hills” kind of stuff. Anyway, I think Otter Creek (“creek” being somewhat insignificant) probably needs to change its name to Otter Hills or Otter River. Tim Woodroof needs to write many more books about “undoing” the Restoration Movement with Max Lucado as his mentor. Woodroof will be able to say one day: “I have arrived!”

Donnie
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

December 20th, 2003, 5:28 pm #10

Donnie, on another thread, I have caught some static because I keep speaking about the ZOE GROUP. The Zoe Group IS the true message of Otter Creek. John O. York is assisting Rubel Shelly to denounce the OLD Bible, giving people the right to TAKE LIBERTIES, hear the audible voice of God who is NOW "partnering" with US to discover TRUTH for our CULTURE. Culture Changes = Bible must change. Damon and Plato says: "Music changes means LAWS are being changed." Why do people hate to hear that?

Only those trained in the EXTREMES of our "fellowship" have TURNED into equal and opposite extremists. Getwell bred Rubel Shelly. (Does not mean they are NOW extreme)

MOST people have been so COWED and left Biblically thirsty and simply do not have the courage to rise up. Until some Otter bares its teeth it is hard to involve them in the takeover which afflicted most churches at one level: if nothing more than to turn SYNAGOGUE into WORSHIP CENTER. The ACT is not singing or melody but TEACHING or PREACHING that which is written by the Spirit of Christ.

If I am not mistaken, the Zoe Group is promoted by faithsite and iBelieve.not. The Look To the Hills thingy at "The Church of the Four Phallic Asherah Poles" has BEEN the key agent for turning churches (which should be synagogues or schools of the Bible, but have ALMOST ALL turned to "worship" to replace "teaching") into Theaters for "Holy Entertainment."

"Preaching" in the modern sense which violates the law against PRIVATE INTERPRETATION which is 'further expounding'--and violates the Law of the non-Pharisee Rabbi in the Synagogue against 'allegorizing'." This has, in the warning of Amos 5, 6, 8; and Isaiah 5 caused the FLOCK to hunger and thirst for the Word. Their "songs IN the temples" were turned into HOWLINGS (As the 1911 Jewish Encyclopedia would define OUR "singing" substituted for TEACHING with "that which is written (Rom 15 defining a synagogue), the Spirit (Jn 6:63; Eph 5) or the Word of Christ (Col 3) which is the SPIRIT of prophecy (1Pe 1:11; Rev 19:10).

As Pogo was want to say: "We have met the enemy face to face and he is US."

And as the SHELL GAME should teach us: "The PEA is under NEITHER shell." Anyone wanting to RESTORE must take personal responsibility for learning and TEACHING one another.

The Bible and church History deny that "church" is a ritualistic religion, and AFFIRM that church is to LET JESUS do the teaching through HIS WORD. Luther's Sola Fide (unknown to our scholars) meant that you had FAITH in the WORD ONLY as the Only Word OF God in Christ to us. Because Jesus demanded BAPTISM or DAMNATION Luther said that Faith Only must rest on Baptism Only for the forgiveness of sins. Luther treated infant baptism as WE NOW treat "baby dedication."

Jesus said GO and make DISCIPLES. A Disciple is a STUDENT of the WORD-ONLY. WHen the members gathered into one place Paul uses a form of the word SYNAGOGUE. The synagogue was not a "worship center." The synagogue gave REST from the Sabbath rituals which were adopted from the nations or goyiim or Babylonians. The clergy as AGENTS of the "god" RESTED while the "church members" performed the BURDEN LADEN rituals to feed, clothe, house, entertain and sexually satisfy the AGENTS. Women singers were ALWAYS "the harem of the gods" and the god's AGENTS. Music does and has always FACILITATED real SEXUALITY in the belief that they are PRAISING GOD.

Melody speaks of the "twanging bow string to send the singing arrow to abrade (pso, sop) our literal heart. Melody IS NOT harmony. Science knows that complex harmony HIDES the "water drips" and "dog barks" which drive us up the wall while the WORHIP LEADERS tell us that it is a SPIRITUAL FEELING. That's what all pagans taught and what Lucifer the Nachash or "musical enchanter" did to poor Eve. YOU cannot get through to the RATIONAL or SPIRITUAL side of the brain after shutting it DOWN with a "churchy" style which creates FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY. That is what SOWS DISCORD and the right wing DRUG HIGH ceases to satisfy and the left wing DRUGH HIGH can take over and the "audience" doesn't know the difference.

Jesus died to give us REST from the laded burden which was "the creation of spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." Until the church ceases to be an INSTITUTION (institutional or non-institutional) and the people CUT FREE to be DISCIPLES they CANNOT be CHRISTIANS in the midst of doing things Jesus and Paul denied were collective "worship."

When you build THEATERS you might expect that Satan will feel invited to come on in and perform. He/She as the king/queen of Tyre was the AGENT and PERSONIFICATION of Lucifer, the "singing and harp playing prostitute." SHE uses ritual-stimulation to keep you ASLEEP while she "fleeces the sheep."

If you look around you can find some Zoe Group material which is too hot to handle, BUT the message has gone into all of the world which has sun light--free of charge. If you want to understand the end-time Babylon harlot religion you have to look at the BEGINNING TIME religion where "Assyria was the TALLEST tree in Eden." Satan was a MUSICAL performer and he can get his job done WITH or WITHOUT instruments.

Ken
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