Mark F.
Mark F.

June 12th, 2006, 3:13 am #11

PBB,

A LITTLE HISTORY LESSON

Technically, in Jesus' time, the first day of the week would have begun on what we call Saturday night after the sunset and ended with sunset the next night.

So, when we read that the church met on the first day of the week, it could have been any time from about 7-8 pm on Saturday night to 7-8 pm on Sunday night.

According to historians, the Lord's Supper was served in the evening. In fact, it wasn't until the second century that the Lord's supper was added to a formal A.M. worship.

In fact, if we suppose that the first century christians in Rome met on the first day of the week as it appears that they did, we have to understand that Roman slaves did not have Saturday and Sunday off. So, they probably met after the day's work was done on Saturday night (after sunset). These slaves would not have been aforded the opportunity (unless thier owners were understanding christians) to meet on Sunday morning to partake of the Lord's Supper.

The Jews could not have broken thier Sabath rest until sunset, meaning they had a full day's work to catch up from on the first day of the week. Markets would have been open, trade would have been occuring, business would have had to been conducted. First century Jewish christian could not have met until the work day was done or they could have met the night before.

This lends understanding to the I Corinthians passage in which Paul asks the Corithian Church to, "wait for one another." (I Cor 11:33).

MY POINT

So, a church that meets after sunset on Saturday night IS following the example of the first century church and technically, if we follow the definition of a day from the New Testament time, when we offer communion on Sunday nights after sunset, it is no longer the first day of the week.

In Christ,

Mark F.

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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

June 12th, 2006, 10:57 am #12

My point exactly. One time I told an elder that
I met with some fellow christians on a youth
retreat and on Saturaday evening we had communion.
He told me I was wrong and that I should have
waited until the next day to share communion
with the church. You are correct. The first day
of the week during the time of Christ is from
Saturaday evening at sunset until the next day.
It seems that the churches of Christ who are so
adamant about what day of the week to have communion,
are actually taking it on the second day of the week
during the winter months and they come forward after
evening service for LS having missed it earlier in
the day for whatever reason.

Thank you
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

June 12th, 2006, 11:20 am #13

For those interested in learning about and understanding just how fallacious and unscriptural the Warren PDC paradigm is, Kjos Ministries has an excellent, multi-part series that addresses this topic, titled Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven? The link is: http://crossroad.to/. Scroll down, click on "Part 1," and go from there.
If Rick Warren and others are trying to lead
people astray by intoduction idols to worship,
or by condoning homosexuality, or anything that
would dishonor Christ, I would join your bandwagon.
Rick Warren is about as middle of the road christianity
as you can get. I have seen him in a video series and I
have read his book. Look at his heart. He has the heart
for serving God bringing others to Christ also. The
priciples that he espouses is nothing more that making
Christ and the church as attractive to the unchurhed
as possible. Tell me don't the churches of Christ do
the same ? Does your church have climate-controlled
air conditioning ? Padded pews ? Attractive architecture?
When visitors come in do you go out of your way to welcome
them ? Basically, what Rick Warren is doing is really no
different than what the churches of Christ have done for
many years.
Can anyone point out explicitely any teachings or doctrines
that are contrary to traditional church doctrines by Rick
Warren ?

Thank you,

Wordkeeper
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 12th, 2006, 8:27 pm #14

Wordkeeper has seen Warren's videos, has read his book(s), and believes that Warren has a "heart" for Jesus. I also have read the PDC and PDL books and have drawn a different conclusion. Wordkeeper wants to know of any of Warren's teachings that conflict with those of the New Testament. The link I gave to the series Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven? is designed to educate those with such questions in mind. Yet it is apparent that Wordkeeper either has not read that series, or he has chosen to ignore the information presented. The series really is quite revealing.

Very well, Warren's first fallacy was to conduct a neighborhood survey to find out what would attract people to church. The entire Saddleback Church was built around the desires and preferences of people and culture, not necessarily on the New Testament's outline for worship. Even the type of people Warren "ministered" to was based on his preference. Instead of inviting all people of all walks of life to come hear the message of the Gospel, Warren suggested that each church select a "target" audience and minister to that specific crowd. In Warren's case, it was primarily white, affluent, 30-something yuppies, who are now the congregants of Saddleback.

Stunts like this do not mirror New Testament example. Christ did not first seek public approval about the content of the Gospel or how He should present the Gospel to make it more attractive. Christ simply brought the pure Word of God and ministered to the poor and rich, the sick and the well, the educated and the ignorant. The Gospel was first carried to the Jews, who by and large rejected it, then it went to the Gentiles. Today, all people of all cultures are targets for the Gospel, not a preferred audience as Warren would have it, for the Gospel transcends all cultures.

The series discusses many more of Warren's fallacies, if Wordkeeper would care to study it. I need not repeat them here.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 12th, 2006, 9:04 pm #15

My point exactly. One time I told an elder that
I met with some fellow christians on a youth
retreat and on Saturaday evening we had communion.
He told me I was wrong and that I should have
waited until the next day to share communion
with the church. You are correct. The first day
of the week during the time of Christ is from
Saturaday evening at sunset until the next day.
It seems that the churches of Christ who are so
adamant about what day of the week to have communion,
are actually taking it on the second day of the week
during the winter months and they come forward after
evening service for LS having missed it earlier in
the day for whatever reason.

Thank you
Well, it looks like we're resorting to clock watching. Since the NT doesn't specify a certain "time" on the first day of the week to take the LS, then to avoid any controversey about Saturday nights, let congregants take the LS in the Sunday AM service as they usually do. For those who cannot be present at that time, in the winter, let the church offer the LS on Sunday afternoon, making sure that it is completed prior to sunset. Of course, the church would need a copy of an almanac or the weather report to track the time of sunset. And I gather that perhaps some would not be opposed if the church should set up a period for LS on Saturday PM as well, for those who can't make it on Sunday at all. But for those who can't make it on either day, what then? Wait until next week?

Maybe we should follow a principle similar to that for missed doses of medicine: if you miss a dose (in this case the LS) at the scheduled time, take the dose (LS) as soon as you remember it. But if it's too close to the next scheduled dose (say within a few minutes up to an hour), do not double the dose. Just skip that previous dose and take the next dose on schedule. Any takers?
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Joined: June 8th, 2006, 6:42 pm

June 12th, 2006, 10:11 pm #16

I would like to propose a particular scenario
and see how you would respond. Let us suppose
that a new congregation has formed at a Holiday
Inn meeting room every Saturaday evening after
the sun goes down. They disdain titles and denomination
affiliations and just want to be called christians.
Their church has no name only by word of mouth do
people find out about this congregation and it has
been growing over the past few months. They have
instumental music during song service, a man who pastors
the congregational needs, and they have weekly
communion on Saturaday evenings. Now they have asked
you if there could be fellowship and common recognition
of being christian, would you gladly receive them ??
I am curious because if churches of Christ have no
formal standard of beliefs there would be no trouble
in accepting these people. If you do not accept them
then aren't you by your actions admitting that there
is a standard set of doctrines distinct amoung churches
of Christ and isn't that one of the attributes that define
denominational guidelines ??

Thank you,

Wordkeeper

I am intrested in your response.
Allow me to propose a scenario as you did. There is a congregation that has formed at a rented building. They meet every Sunday morning and they too disdain titles and denomination affiliations. They also go by the name Christian and have a leader that tends to their needs. They also use instrumental music during their song service and participate in communion every Sunday.


Now, will you fellowship them?


After you decide I will tell you who they are.
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Joined: June 8th, 2006, 6:42 pm

June 12th, 2006, 10:13 pm #17

I would like to propose a particular scenario
and see how you would respond. Let us suppose
that a new congregation has formed at a Holiday
Inn meeting room every Saturaday evening after
the sun goes down. They disdain titles and denomination
affiliations and just want to be called christians.
Their church has no name only by word of mouth do
people find out about this congregation and it has
been growing over the past few months. They have
instumental music during song service, a man who pastors
the congregational needs, and they have weekly
communion on Saturaday evenings. Now they have asked
you if there could be fellowship and common recognition
of being christian, would you gladly receive them ??
I am curious because if churches of Christ have no
formal standard of beliefs there would be no trouble
in accepting these people. If you do not accept them
then aren't you by your actions admitting that there
is a standard set of doctrines distinct amoung churches
of Christ and isn't that one of the attributes that define
denominational guidelines ??

Thank you,

Wordkeeper

I am intrested in your response.
The church that belongs to Christ always has a standard doctrine. (The B-I-B-L-E now that’s the book for me!) This doctrine will always be distinct so long as so many churches throw the Bible and it’s authority out the window. Among those standards is the biblical doctrine of Elders = Pastors (not the preacher) = Shepherds = Bishops. A doctrine not held on to by their scenario church. But, as you say it’s “their” church, so I guess they can do what they want.
I guess I am curious which attributes do you believe defines churches of Christ as denominational?


Darryl Scott
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 13th, 2006, 12:21 am #18

My point exactly. One time I told an elder that
I met with some fellow christians on a youth
retreat and on Saturaday evening we had communion.
He told me I was wrong and that I should have
waited until the next day to share communion
with the church. You are correct. The first day
of the week during the time of Christ is from
Saturaday evening at sunset until the next day.
It seems that the churches of Christ who are so
adamant about what day of the week to have communion,
are actually taking it on the second day of the week
during the winter months and they come forward after
evening service for LS having missed it earlier in
the day for whatever reason.

Thank you
It all depends on where you live. Technically, I don't rightly remember whether Troas observed Jewish Standard Time Or Greek Time. I think they met after Sunset so Paul could travel on SUNDAY which was not a day of Rest. I don't think that they met for preaching at 9:30 in the morning.

If you meet in another time zone you might meet on the Sabbath when the Elders are meeting on Sunday.

However, methinks that when you need to trump the agreed upon setting of times you may just be teaching "there are no standards?"

Technically, if you are correct, ONLY those who take the Lord's Supper Sunday night AFTER sunset are observing it on MONDAY. But, that would not deliberately sow discord as you do when you do it on Saturday. If you feel the need to DO the supper on Saturday night which ends are MIDNIGHT are you sure that you are not seeing it in a LEGALISTIC way? After all, you are not a 2,000 year old Jew.

We know that Jesus raised on the FIRST day of the week and that has to be based on the local time zone. For EVERYONE that begins at Midnight.

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Joined: June 10th, 2006, 3:36 am

June 13th, 2006, 3:08 am #19

Well, it looks like we're resorting to clock watching. Since the NT doesn't specify a certain "time" on the first day of the week to take the LS, then to avoid any controversey about Saturday nights, let congregants take the LS in the Sunday AM service as they usually do. For those who cannot be present at that time, in the winter, let the church offer the LS on Sunday afternoon, making sure that it is completed prior to sunset. Of course, the church would need a copy of an almanac or the weather report to track the time of sunset. And I gather that perhaps some would not be opposed if the church should set up a period for LS on Saturday PM as well, for those who can't make it on Sunday at all. But for those who can't make it on either day, what then? Wait until next week?

Maybe we should follow a principle similar to that for missed doses of medicine: if you miss a dose (in this case the LS) at the scheduled time, take the dose (LS) as soon as you remember it. But if it's too close to the next scheduled dose (say within a few minutes up to an hour), do not double the dose. Just skip that previous dose and take the next dose on schedule. Any takers?
Doc,

I have grown up attending the and hold fast to to the ideal that we try to imitate the N.T. church.

My point is this, on the issue of WHEN to partake of the Lord's Supper, one could discern from scripture and historical context that the Lord's Supper was initially taken by the christians in Acts on a Saturday night after sundown. This would have been consisent with those christians observing a Jewish calendar.

For a congregation to say that they want to follow that same pattern spelled out in scripture can not be wrong.

We, in the church of Christ, base many beliefs on the examples in scripture and often use historical context to support those beliefs. This would be one example.

In Christ,

Mark F.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 13th, 2006, 2:19 pm #20

We both made our points, now discerning readers can decide for themselves.
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