efforts better served-Part two

Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

November 4th, 2006, 3:44 pm #1

Since I am not from the Madison Tn. area and by my
own admission I have not read all of the posts on this
site I was wondering if someone could help me out in
having a better understanding of the situation as it
is currently played out.

1. Has this web site had any influence in changing
the church back to the 'way it used to be ' ?

2. Has Madison been growing ? Declining ? Stable ?

3. Of the many members who have left Madison BECAUSE
of the changes that took place, are there any efforts
in getting those people together to start a new
congregation ?

4. Of the current members at Madison, how many support
what is taking place and how many oppose what is taking
place at the church ? An estimate would be fine.
Ex. 55-45 support or 60-40 oppose or whatever you
think it is.

5. Of those who oppose what is currently taking place are
there enough to vote in Elders who could turn things back
around ?

What it all boils down to is this:

My suspicions are that Madison has gone through these
changes and it is either at a point of no return or
for all intents and purposes this web site is nothing
more than a gripe board of disgruntled members or
former members who wish that things could be the same
as it once was.

There are many times in my life and really in the lives of
just about every reader on the forum that have a difficult
time in accepting that things change and not always the way
that we would like for them to turn out.

At some point in time the best way to approach it is to make
lemonaide out of lemons and do something positive out of
something bad.

I would encourage the people who oppose the changes to get
involved with the youth of today so that you can help them
forge their own destiny and maybe make the church stronger
for the next generation.

Thank you,

wordkeeper

============================

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Note from ConcernedMembers:
  • While this forum welcomes messages and opinions from those of different religious persuasions, this board at times deems it necessary to request further information whence the message comes, unless the poster has made that acknowledgment at the outset. This is to ensure that our original message to warn other congregations in the brotherhood [among churches of Christ] remains clearly understood. For example, it is certainly a wrong impression to suggest that this forum or a congregation should oppose or should never allow any change. But it becomes a major issue when the change, regardless of the “slick” and subtle methodologies used, destroys a congregation. Or, when God’s directives for the church are challenged, modified or redefined.

    Thanks to Harry Smith [a.k.a. “wordkeeper”] for providing the requested information.

    Just a little bit of caution here—“wordkeeper” as an identity is somewhat delusive. I certainly believe that while I am a keeper of God’s truth and that while I am a Christian … I am not the only keeper of the word [Luke 8:15] and I am not the only Christian [Acts 11:26; I Peter 4:16]. And, yes, I will continue to identify myself by my own name: Donnie Cruz. Can Harry Smith do the same?

    Harry Smith has provided more information in his post dated November 8 2006, 5:51 PM.

    Donnie Cruz
</font>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 10th, 2006, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 4th, 2006, 6:48 pm #2

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>ConcernedMembers has approved your thread—not unconditionally because of the nature of its contents. This forum needs some clarification from you for the sake of the readers. And please don’t take this as being rude or biased.

We know this much about you from your other posts. Your name is Harry Smith [a.k.a. “wordkeeper”] with this e-mail address: [url=mailto:hsmith@yhamerica.com]hsmith@yhamerica.com[/url] [in case the reader would like to correspond with you]. You had been a member of the church of Christ at ______________ but are now affiliated with the religious group ________________.

The reason for providing such specific information is crucial in determining how to go about discussing Madison’s situation as this thread indicates. Is the message or are the inquiries coming from:
  • (a) a current member of Madison or
  • (b) a former member of the congregation who now attends another congregation in the brotherhood or
  • (c) an apostate [in this sense: someone who has left the church altogether to join a denominational group] or
  • (d) an outsider who may be experiencing the same dilemma in his own religious affiliation.
It appears that as an outsider you are very interested in what has gone on (and is going on) at Madison. But why … considering that you are now affiliated with the “Assembly of God” faith?

I believe that with additional information provided, the readers with interest will respond to YOUR agenda accordingly. “Simply opposing to any change … period”—that you are suggesting—is a MINISCULE SEGMENT of the destructive, subversive, catastrophic mission of the culture-driven Change Movement that has adversely affected not only churches of Christ, but also many fundamental religious bodies.

Donnie</font>
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Sikem
Sikem

November 7th, 2006, 6:56 pm #3

Since I am not from the Madison Tn. area and by my
own admission I have not read all of the posts on this
site I was wondering if someone could help me out in
having a better understanding of the situation as it
is currently played out.

1. Has this web site had any influence in changing
the church back to the 'way it used to be ' ?

2. Has Madison been growing ? Declining ? Stable ?

3. Of the many members who have left Madison BECAUSE
of the changes that took place, are there any efforts
in getting those people together to start a new
congregation ?

4. Of the current members at Madison, how many support
what is taking place and how many oppose what is taking
place at the church ? An estimate would be fine.
Ex. 55-45 support or 60-40 oppose or whatever you
think it is.

5. Of those who oppose what is currently taking place are
there enough to vote in Elders who could turn things back
around ?

What it all boils down to is this:

My suspicions are that Madison has gone through these
changes and it is either at a point of no return or
for all intents and purposes this web site is nothing
more than a gripe board of disgruntled members or
former members who wish that things could be the same
as it once was.

There are many times in my life and really in the lives of
just about every reader on the forum that have a difficult
time in accepting that things change and not always the way
that we would like for them to turn out.

At some point in time the best way to approach it is to make
lemonaide out of lemons and do something positive out of
something bad.

I would encourage the people who oppose the changes to get
involved with the youth of today so that you can help them
forge their own destiny and maybe make the church stronger
for the next generation.

Thank you,

wordkeeper

============================

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Note from ConcernedMembers:
  • While this forum welcomes messages and opinions from those of different religious persuasions, this board at times deems it necessary to request further information whence the message comes, unless the poster has made that acknowledgment at the outset. This is to ensure that our original message to warn other congregations in the brotherhood [among churches of Christ] remains clearly understood. For example, it is certainly a wrong impression to suggest that this forum or a congregation should oppose or should never allow any change. But it becomes a major issue when the change, regardless of the “slick” and subtle methodologies used, destroys a congregation. Or, when God’s directives for the church are challenged, modified or redefined.

    Thanks to Harry Smith [a.k.a. “wordkeeper”] for providing the requested information.

    Just a little bit of caution here—“wordkeeper” as an identity is somewhat delusive. I certainly believe that while I am a keeper of God’s truth and that while I am a Christian … I am not the only keeper of the word [Luke 8:15] and I am not the only Christian [Acts 11:26; I Peter 4:16]. And, yes, I will continue to identify myself by my own name: Donnie Cruz. Can Harry Smith do the same?

    Harry Smith has provided more information in his post dated November 8 2006, 5:51 PM.

    Donnie Cruz
</font>
Why not just answer the questions. They seem straightforward and relevent.
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

November 8th, 2006, 10:51 pm #4

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>ConcernedMembers has approved your thread—not unconditionally because of the nature of its contents. This forum needs some clarification from you for the sake of the readers. And please don’t take this as being rude or biased.

We know this much about you from your other posts. Your name is Harry Smith [a.k.a. “wordkeeper”] with this e-mail address: [url=mailto:hsmith@yhamerica.com]hsmith@yhamerica.com[/url] [in case the reader would like to correspond with you]. You had been a member of the church of Christ at ______________ but are now affiliated with the religious group ________________.

The reason for providing such specific information is crucial in determining how to go about discussing Madison’s situation as this thread indicates. Is the message or are the inquiries coming from:
  • (a) a current member of Madison or
  • (b) a former member of the congregation who now attends another congregation in the brotherhood or
  • (c) an apostate [in this sense: someone who has left the church altogether to join a denominational group] or
  • (d) an outsider who may be experiencing the same dilemma in his own religious affiliation.
It appears that as an outsider you are very interested in what has gone on (and is going on) at Madison. But why … considering that you are now affiliated with the “Assembly of God” faith?

I believe that with additional information provided, the readers with interest will respond to YOUR agenda accordingly. “Simply opposing to any change … period”—that you are suggesting—is a MINISCULE SEGMENT of the destructive, subversive, catastrophic mission of the culture-driven Change Movement that has adversely affected not only churches of Christ, but also many fundamental religious bodies.

Donnie</font>
I think that your questions are fair and
reasonable. Yes, my name is Harry Smith and
I have communicated on several posts but I
have not read all of the posts as they are
quite voluminous. I was raised in the churches
of Christ up until my mid-20s. I was involved
in an inter-denomination street witnessing group
in Lexington, Kentucky in the mid 1980s. Some of
my fellow workers were charismatic and I wanted
to debate them as to why they were wrong. They
wouldn't debate me but only told me to search the
scriptures with an open mind. After 20 years and
over at least 2,000 hours of research in not only
scholarly literature but also at least 700-800 hours
in the Bible alone I came to the conclusion the Spiritual
Gifts are as relevant today as they were in the first
century. I am now a part of the Assemblies of God group.
I still attend the churches of Christ in Lexington and
Louisville on an infrequent basis.

I am being honest when I say that no one from Madison
or any other group are the source behind my inquiries.
You ask why I have such an interest in the web site and
I'll tell you. It started when a friend of mine who
shares many views as myself told me about concernedmembers.
com. I started out of curiosity and then I began to see
something that I haven't seen before and that is opposing
viewpoints to my own.

Donnie, I believe that our differences go way deep beyond
just some of the issues discussed on this board. Our whole
perspectives on spiritual matters are very much different.
I see this this whole controversey of the Purpose-Driven
Church as pretty benign. I believe that people can
actually attend these churches and grow in their relationship
with Jesus Christ. You on the other hand are quite alarmed
as to the teachings behind the purpose-driven church and
you probably see me as a naieve follower of any teachings
that come about. I believe that we see things so very
differently. I accept brothers and sisters from other
denominations as long as they believe that salvation is
through a personal relationship with God through his son,
Jesus Christ. If another believer is willing to lay down
their own lives for the sake of the Gospel; to me that
person is a Christian no matter what denomination they
are affiliated with. Unfortunately, too many people
believe that salvation depends on the correctness of the
doctrine of their church.

You on the other hand present me as one of the options
as to where I stand in relationship to orthodoxy "an
apostate [in this sense:someone who has left the church
altogether to join a denominational group]" You are
implying that the churches of Christ are the only source
of truth and anyone outside the churches of Christ is
an apostate. Again, this is where we disagree. I believe
that no one christian group is 100% correct on all
doctrinal matters. I believe that the churches of Christ
have several pet doctrines that are not a part of scripture.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the apostacy is
on the other foot. Could you be wrong on several issues
or are you always right on all matters concerning faith ?

Anyway, the crux of why we are discussing this issue on
this web site:

I am being truthful when I say that I am very sorry about
how this whole thing at Madison Church of Christ has turned
out. It is true I am an outsider and not anyone directly
involved in what is going on at your church> But, I do have
a vested interest in how this thing is handled. Even though
I am hundreds of miles away and have never met anyone from
the Madisdon Church of Christ I still consider each and every
person on both side of the controversey to be my brothes-in Christ.
Distance and circumstances didn't prevent the Apostle Paul from
caring about fellow believers.(I am definately not implying that
I am an Apostle; although I believe there are still some in the church).

Back to my first post on this thread. If you can remember a couple
of months ago when I submitted a topic "Have to brag on our youth
group" which I am disappointed that it didn't make it on the board;
I suggested that instead of trying to change adults from their
already formed opinions a better approach is to train young people
to develop their own faith and pray that the future is better
for them. it seems to be a better approach than what is currently
being done on this message board.

One last thing the e-mail address is hsmith@yhamerica.com
is my business e-mail address and our IT manager has asked
us to keep personal e-mails to a minimum.

Thank you,

Harry Smith
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 9th, 2006, 7:55 am #5

Harry Smith: "I believe that the churches of Christ
have several pet doctrines that are not a part of scripture."

Traditional churches of Christ follow the doctrine of the New Testament. I invite Harry Smith to list those "pet doctrines" of churches of Christ which allegedly are not a part of New Testament Scripture and further show how those doctrines specifically violate or contradict New Testament Scripture.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

November 10th, 2006, 9:04 pm #6

I think that your questions are fair and
reasonable. Yes, my name is Harry Smith and
I have communicated on several posts but I
have not read all of the posts as they are
quite voluminous. I was raised in the churches
of Christ up until my mid-20s. I was involved
in an inter-denomination street witnessing group
in Lexington, Kentucky in the mid 1980s. Some of
my fellow workers were charismatic and I wanted
to debate them as to why they were wrong. They
wouldn't debate me but only told me to search the
scriptures with an open mind. After 20 years and
over at least 2,000 hours of research in not only
scholarly literature but also at least 700-800 hours
in the Bible alone I came to the conclusion the Spiritual
Gifts are as relevant today as they were in the first
century. I am now a part of the Assemblies of God group.
I still attend the churches of Christ in Lexington and
Louisville on an infrequent basis.

I am being honest when I say that no one from Madison
or any other group are the source behind my inquiries.
You ask why I have such an interest in the web site and
I'll tell you. It started when a friend of mine who
shares many views as myself told me about concernedmembers.
com. I started out of curiosity and then I began to see
something that I haven't seen before and that is opposing
viewpoints to my own.

Donnie, I believe that our differences go way deep beyond
just some of the issues discussed on this board. Our whole
perspectives on spiritual matters are very much different.
I see this this whole controversey of the Purpose-Driven
Church as pretty benign. I believe that people can
actually attend these churches and grow in their relationship
with Jesus Christ. You on the other hand are quite alarmed
as to the teachings behind the purpose-driven church and
you probably see me as a naieve follower of any teachings
that come about. I believe that we see things so very
differently. I accept brothers and sisters from other
denominations as long as they believe that salvation is
through a personal relationship with God through his son,
Jesus Christ. If another believer is willing to lay down
their own lives for the sake of the Gospel; to me that
person is a Christian no matter what denomination they
are affiliated with. Unfortunately, too many people
believe that salvation depends on the correctness of the
doctrine of their church.

You on the other hand present me as one of the options
as to where I stand in relationship to orthodoxy "an
apostate [in this sense:someone who has left the church
altogether to join a denominational group]" You are
implying that the churches of Christ are the only source
of truth and anyone outside the churches of Christ is
an apostate. Again, this is where we disagree. I believe
that no one christian group is 100% correct on all
doctrinal matters. I believe that the churches of Christ
have several pet doctrines that are not a part of scripture.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the apostacy is
on the other foot. Could you be wrong on several issues
or are you always right on all matters concerning faith ?

Anyway, the crux of why we are discussing this issue on
this web site:

I am being truthful when I say that I am very sorry about
how this whole thing at Madison Church of Christ has turned
out. It is true I am an outsider and not anyone directly
involved in what is going on at your church> But, I do have
a vested interest in how this thing is handled. Even though
I am hundreds of miles away and have never met anyone from
the Madisdon Church of Christ I still consider each and every
person on both side of the controversey to be my brothes-in Christ.
Distance and circumstances didn't prevent the Apostle Paul from
caring about fellow believers.(I am definately not implying that
I am an Apostle; although I believe there are still some in the church).

Back to my first post on this thread. If you can remember a couple
of months ago when I submitted a topic "Have to brag on our youth
group" which I am disappointed that it didn't make it on the board;
I suggested that instead of trying to change adults from their
already formed opinions a better approach is to train young people
to develop their own faith and pray that the future is better
for them. it seems to be a better approach than what is currently
being done on this message board.

One last thing the e-mail address is hsmith@yhamerica.com
is my business e-mail address and our IT manager has asked
us to keep personal e-mails to a minimum.

Thank you,

Harry Smith
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>To Harry Smith:

Please note that I have included the following information in your original post/message above. We certainly are trying to avoid the possibility that the new reader may be unnecessarily receiving “mixed messages.” Confusion, i.e., as we certainly are aware that you have come a long way from what you believed and knew as a former member of Christ’s church.
  • _________________________

    <font color=red face=arial>Note from ConcernedMembers:

    While this forum welcomes messages and opinions from those of different religious persuasions, this board at times deems it necessary to request further information whence the message comes, unless the poster has made that acknowledgment at the outset. This is to ensure that our original message to warn other congregations in the brotherhood [among churches of Christ] remains clearly understood. For example, it is certainly a wrong impression to suggest that this forum or a congregation should oppose or should never allow any change. But it becomes a major issue when the change, regardless of the “slick” and subtle methodologies used, destroys a congregation. Or, when God’s directives for the church are challenged, modified or redefined.

    Thanks to Harry Smith [a.k.a. “wordkeeper”] for providing the requested information.

    Just a little bit of caution here—“wordkeeper” as an identity is somewhat delusive. I certainly believe that while I am a keeper of God’s truth and that while I am a Christian … I am not the only keeper of the word [Luke 8:15] and I am not the only Christian [Acts 11:26; I Peter 4:16]. And, yes, I will continue to identify myself by my own name: Donnie Cruz. Can Harry Smith do the same?

    Harry Smith has provided more information in his post dated November 8 2006, 5:51 PM.</font>

    _________________________
Thanks for explaining your religious background. Just be aware that not all people come to similar conclusions as you have, regardless of their countless hours of dedicated studies and involvement or participation “outside the box.” For example, the study of “spiritual gifts” cannot be oversimplified or even be confused with the miraculous manifestations evident in the times and lives of the apostles who were personally and directly associated with Christ … and who were endowed with such unparalleled power and responsibility to expand the borders of Christ’s kingdom, the church that He established (Matt. 16; Acts 2). No, the miraculous indications of the first century—that you seem to suggest are “relevant” and to be practiced in the 21st century [while absent in the centuries in between] have ceased. Definitely … NO to Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, TBN and others that you seem to admire and adore! NO … to the following gibberish:
  • <font color=red>“ Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene (his voice becomes hoarse and is reduced to an indistinguishable whisper). Bear fose sone ta wentta lone (voice trails off into a whisper again). Da lotta tongue de cushawong do so coo toe. Ah shon da ba she dees ... O. Lord, your good ... Gash a la mon sewer. El ah ma she sa (more whispering). Fa kon a la ma dorman begetta see de so lawsuit...”</font>
I am not a disbeliever of “spiritual gifts” when properly clarified. But I know that while musical talent is a NATURAL, physical gift from God (and folks endowed with such talent ought to be thankful to the Creator), I happen to be certain that it is NOT A SPIRITUAL GIFT—and I stand by what the Scripture says about spiritual gifts. [This is all I am going to state in regard to your defense and promotion of modern-day “charismatic” values—that you brought up—as the subject is out-of-scope in terms of the intent that this thread was brought up in the first place.]

Your claim that you “still attend the churches of Christ in Lexington and Louisville on an infrequent basis” is not enough proof that you haven’t disassociated from the brotherhood.

Nobody questions your sincerity in your objectives—nor should anyone’s sincerity be questioned for that matter. I do not recall asking you questions regarding your interest in the website—that is obvious—and would we not be aware of that already?

Rather, one of my main concerns was simply your personal attempt at resolving the problems and issues at Madison—those coming from an outsider [you], especially from someone with strong charismatic tendencies! Let me be blunt for once—Harry, if you want to carry out your plan, I would suggest that you write to the current elders of Madison … introduce yourself as a former member of the church of Christ … as a current member of the “Assembly of God” group—hopefully the elders would be able to discern the implications—and that you are sincerely and honestly trying to help heal the spiritual wounds, etc. They just might thank you for it.

It was not necessary for you to explain our differences and mindset variances. Of course, they are numerous … and obvious. But I would like to stress that “relationships”—whatever and however that decorated expression really means scripturally—is an oversimplification of a solution. That ecumenism—to “accept brothers and sisters from ‘other denominations’”—is the solution? Yeah, right, Harry, I can really see the Baptists, the Mormons, the Adventists, the Christian Scientists or Scientologists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Charismatics and Pentecostals and others accepting and embracing each other. Have you seen this happen yet? If so, let me know.

The Holy Scripture speaks of doctrine very much. So, it is important. The correctness of it is important. Doesn’t that explain why regardless of ecumenical efforts and attempts, Christendom is divided? And the idea that churches of Christ unite with the Assemblies of God? If that’s foremost in your mind, forget it. It is not being realistic; it will never work.

(I do remember from sometime ago a topic, “Have to brag on our youth group.” In fact, I have a copy of it and a portion of it states:
  • “ I have always felt that the Bible study for the young people is at its best in the churches of Christ. I can remember growing up in the churches of Christ that my Bible would be full of notes. But the AssemblY of God where I currently attend has gone to the next level. … … … As a follow up on efforts better served... I would encourage Donnie, Dr. Crump, Ken Sublett, PPB, and everybody else that if you want real change that is sustainable then, get involved with your young people like our congregation has. Instead of the time you all put in this web site which as far as I can tell hasn't made one dent of difference at Madison, please be an adult sponser of a youth group.”
To this day I have not wondered why it was D.O.A. [Dead-on-Arrrrrgh].)

O.K., an Assembly of God member has identified himself personally and as a resolution expert. Having such crucial knowledge of where it’s all coming from, let the discussion begin.

Donnie</font>
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

November 10th, 2006, 10:34 pm #7

Bro. Donnie,

I appreciate your response on this matter. I hope
that one day we could meet. Maybe the next time I
pass through Nashville which is about every other
year or so. You raised several good points and I'll
leave discussion about doctrinal matters to another
day (Spiritual Gifts). But, I'd like to bring out
three points:

1. Doctrine is important but do you not think that
an individual Christian can attend a church that
employs the principles of the Purpose-Driven Church
and still remain true to scripture ? There is a
distinction between the beliefs of an individual and
that of a congregation. Most people I run into have
told me that they do not necessarily share all of the
beliefs of their congregation. This is important.
Careful study of scripture reveals many instances of
disagreements of doctrinal matters between individuals
and even between individuals and the church as a whole.
How about you Bro. Donnie ? Have you ever been in a
congregation and a discussion is raised and you think
to yourself "I don't believe the same way as Bro. so
and so". What I am getting at is that there is importance
in being diligent in believing in doctrinal matters but
even then, individuals can grow and thrive spiritually
in congregations where the principles of the Purpose-
Driven Church are used. Many months ago I raised a
challenge to anyone who can directly quote something
from Rick Warren that contradicts fundamental church
doctrine and I have yet to have anyone do so. I cannot
for the life of me see where the 'dangers' are.

2. On Christians of various denominations having fellowship:
I know for a fact that when I was working with an
inter-denominational street witnessing group everybody
got along with each other and it seemed to work out
rather well. We focused on telling others about Jesus
and the benefits of having a personal relationship with
God through Christ. Maybe your own experience with
multi-denominational groups has been bad; but I can
attest to the fact that through my personal experience
it turned out good.

3. On the situation concerning Madison Church of Christ. I
don't pretend that I have a magical solution that will
please everyone but I can pray about the situation (which
I do every Monday, Thursday, and Saturday nights). What
I hope that doesn't get lost is that the important issue
is not who's right or who's wrong but, the kind of love
that christians should have for one another like what
Christ spoke of in John 17. The greater issue is not
crushing your opponent in defeat but how does this whole
controversy look to unbelievers and what kind of witness
are we giving them ??


Thank you,

Harry Smith

3.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

November 10th, 2006, 10:46 pm #8

Why not just answer the questions. They seem straightforward and relevent.
Your questions are answered on this board many times over! You can read about the elders who left; you can read about the deacons who left; you can read about the members who left.

Many of those who love to live in peace got out of the way when the Christians at Madison starting fighting. Peacable Christians left Madison. Those who love to fight, for the Lord of course - stayed. Those who love to withstand the devil - stayed. Those who love to push others around and get their way - stayed. Those who determined that Christians must "change" to what I want them to be- stayed.

The humble Christians who were looking for a place to serve and worship God, making no name or reputation for themselves, left.

It is true that there are Christians at Madison now who were not part of this "herding Christians out the door of Madison." But many of those who held the door open for those leaving are still there. Some of those are on the church pay roll. Some of those have functions in the CD music recording business support by the church at Madison. There is rental property that someone gets paid to look after at Madison. There is a church mall at madison that has hired help.

Some of those who stayed and fight continue to be <font size=4 color=indigo face>PAID TO STAY!</font>

I will address some of your comments at a later date but I must address this "silly" one first. You wrote, "the best way to approach it is to make lemonaide out of lemons and do something positive out of something bad."

Making lemonaide out of lemons is not to be equated with making something positive out of something bad. There is nothing bad about lemons. Try making lemonaide out of dung and see what you get!

In Christ,
Jimmy
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

November 11th, 2006, 3:03 pm #9

Harry Smith: "I believe that the churches of Christ
have several pet doctrines that are not a part of scripture."

Traditional churches of Christ follow the doctrine of the New Testament. I invite Harry Smith to list those "pet doctrines" of churches of Christ which allegedly are not a part of New Testament Scripture and further show how those doctrines specifically violate or contradict New Testament Scripture.
Dr. Crump,

I do not know how long you have been a member of
the churches of Christ but I believe it has been
long enough that you have heard of some criticisms
of church of Christ doctrines. List those that you
have heard about yourself and post it on this
message board. If there are any others that you
have not listed I'll add it as a response.

Thank you,

Harry Smith
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 11th, 2006, 8:20 pm #10

Since Harry Smith initiated the claim in this thread that churches of Christ embrace several "pet doctrines" that are not found in Scripture, then he should be frank and tell us exactly what "pet doctrines" he's talking about. He's made an accusation, now it's time for him to prove it.

We in the churches of Christ believe that our doctrine is in step with that found in the New Testament. That is, we do not believe that we embrace "pet doctrines." If others believe that we do not follow the New Testament, however, we ask them to show us exactly where and how we are wrong.
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