Dave
Dave

December 28th, 2011, 3:13 am #31

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
I wonder what this means...."That sums it up: a person OF FAITH or OF TRUTH would not even think about rebuking a human who gave them orders to do something."
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Dave
Dave

December 28th, 2011, 5:31 am #32

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
Ken,
You ever heard the song 'Mean' by Taylor Swift? Some people are just mean and really like being mean. It gives them an air of superiority.
I just don't understand why they have to dabble in religion when they choose to be mean. Jesus is about love, and you don't like love....so what gives?

All that you write about is doom and gloom....too morbid. If it isn't morbid it is perverted. You would even give the demons the shudders. Take a look at all your writings. Your next to last post was where you slandered someone with "boy molesters." If it isn't that then it is something else perverted, or witchcraft, or sorcery, or dancing naked.
Why would you want to have anything to do with Jesus, who calls you to love others.
Even if you despise other men, what did God say about loving your enemies?
Find something else constructive to do Ken.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 28th, 2011, 8:22 pm #33


Tom Burgess is used as the authority for COMMANDING musical instruments and trying to do away with those who will not follow the leader. I have posted the REST of Tom Burgess' proof examples and ALL of the PLUCKING examples are of older males pulcking the harp to pluck a young male whose hairs had been plucked.

Tom Burgess:Tom Burgess p. 33: Chrysostom strongly opposed instruments because they were "lifeless, demons, unnecessary, and used in heathen entertainments--cf. Hom. Ps. 149:2; Hom. Ps 150. Clement said that such instruments as the pipe and flute were "more suitable to beasts than to men. " He calls such music "licentious and mischievous. " Cf. Instructor. These interesting comparisons are

full of impressive emotional prejudice but demonstrate no scriptural backing and therefore would appeal only to one who is searching for a cause and not the truth.


Self-protection and preservation caused the instrument to be used sparingly;
some abused its use causing it to be compared to pagan music;

hence, some have concluded that conviction based on scripture had stopped the music!


Of course, that's a lie: we don't love lies or liars. The only use of instruments would have been at "how to conduct ourselves at feasts." This would have been "outside of church." All pagans used instruments at festivals and Chrysostom outlawed everything but the lyre and then allegorized that."

FACTS: Chrysostom on Colossians defines HOW and WHAT happened at church:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you"; that is,
the teaching, the doctrines, the exhortation
, wherein He says, that the present life is nothing, nor yet its good things.
If we know this, we shall yield to no hardships whatever. (Matt. vi. 25, &c)
"Let it dwell in you," he saith, "richly," not simply dwell, but with great abundance. Hearken ye, as many as are worldly,
and have the charge of wife and children;
how to you too he commits especially the reading of the Scriptures
and that not to be done lightly, nor in any sort of way, but with much earnestness.


Now THAT is what Jesus EXAMPLED and Paul commanded in the "synagogue" in Rom 15, what Paul did out on mission, what he commanded Timothy and what the church did until about the year 400 when SINGING WAS ADDED TO THE ASSEMBLY. WHY would you have instruments when the were literate and READ the word as commanded.

From 1 Cor 10 which warns of the PLAY or musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. Homily XII, Col 4

FACTS:I dare say you consider me offensive. For this too is a property of extreme pervertedness, that even one that rebuketh you incurs your ridicule as one that is austere. Hear ye not Paul, saying, "Whatsoever ye do, whether ye eat or drink or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God"? (1 Cor. x. 31)

But ye do all to ill report and dishonor. Hear ye not the Prophet, saying, "Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice unto Him with trembling?" (Ps. ii. 11) But ye are wholly without restraint. Is it not possible both to enjoy pleasure, and to do so with safety?
Art thou desirous of hearing beautiful songs? Best of all indeed, thou oughtest not; nevertheless,
I condescend if thou wilt have it so: do not hear those Satanic ones, but the spiritual.

Art thou desirous of seeing choirs of dancers?
Behold the choir of Angels. And how is it possible, saith one, to see them?
If thou drive away all these things, even Christ will come to such a marriage, and Christ being present, the choir of Angels is present also. If thou wilt, He will even now work miracles as He did then; He will make even now the water, wine (John ii.); and what is much more wonderful,
He will convert this unstable and dissolving pleasure, this cold desire, and change it into the spiritual. This is to make of water, wine.
Where pipers are, by no means there is Christ;
but even if He should have entered, [the musical minstrels]
He first casts these forth, and then He works His wonders.
What can be more disagreeable than this Satanic pomp?
where everything is everything without significancy; and if there be anything articulate,
again all is shameful, all is noisome


Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG. If you have musical minstrels who have invaded your church then CAST THEM OUT more or less violently. That is how to love Jesus and HIS Word.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on December 28th, 2011, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 2nd, 2012, 10:23 pm #34

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
Quote from Dave Fields:
Hotdogs Anyone? December 27 2011, 9:51 AM

Throughout the history of our Lord, we have seen singing and dancing and singing and playing of the instruments along with the singing. Now B wants to believe that because the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments, then it should be avoided. I see.

And the NT says that it should be vocal music ONLY, right?
Wrong! Again, that is people wanting to abuse Scripture to make their traditions better than someone else's tradition.
The sin is in the fact that musical instruments aren't listed as sin. When people add sins to the Word that is not already listed, therein lies the sin.

Again, recorded history shows that David pleased God in playing and singing. Pleasing God in that manner didn't stop when Jesus died on the cross.

B, maybe you could try the one about the man who ordered a hotdog with relish and got ketchup too....that is always a stellar one.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

How did you come up with the expression "throughout the history of our Lord"? And then follow it up with: "we have seen singing and dancing and singing and playing of the instruments along with the singing"? Really creative thought patterns, Dave.

What you have described is more like the history of musical idolatry!!! The Old Testament pretty much reveals musical and dancing events -- all recorded in the Bible and backed up by human history of music and dancing. Instrumental music and dancing are inseparable in the entertainment world, and that includes "holy" entertainment!!!!

B is correct in that "the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments." Besides, it specifically speaks of "singing ... making melody in your heart to the Lord" or of "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." How can it be more specific than that? Your problem, Dave, is that you want God's truth and His word to state YOUR desire: "singing with musical accessories to the Lord."

Now, Dave, the bottom line is that your DESIRE "to add musical equipment and accessories to singing" is the real ABUSE of Scripture. Why are you so unwilling to accept the simple truth from God's word?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 2nd, 2012, 10:56 pm #35

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
Dave's remark: "Now B wants to believe that because the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments, then it [using musical instruments] should be avoided. I see.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Here's a valid, common-sense explanation, Dave:

1. Mr. Fields just had a thorough physical exam. The diagnostic results were: that Mr. Fields is in good health with the exception of the cholesterol level of 260 being above the normal range.

2. Dr. Pharma gave Mr. Fields a specific prescription to help correct or minimize the specific medical anomaly -- no more, no less.

3. However, Mr. Fields desire and insistence was that while at it, he wanted his suspecting "undetected" other medical anomalies corrected as well. He asked Dr. Pharma to give him a prescription or medication to keep blood pressure problems under control. Dr. Pharma did not give him any medication for some anomaly that does not exist in Fields' body functions.

4. Mr. Fields is not convinced of the truth, decides to consult with a friend/relative with blood pressure problems. (Oh, well, at this point, who knows what Mr. Fields has decided to do. I think, I have a pretty good idea.)[/color]
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B
B

January 2nd, 2012, 11:14 pm #36

Dave refuses to believe that as the Great Physician, God has prescribed vocal music, but He has not prescribed any other kind of music. Therefore, who are we to go over God's head and employ instrumental music IN ADDITION TO vocal music? That would be like the pharmacist who goes over a doctor's head and ADDS a medication to a doctor's prescription that the doctor never specified. A pharmacist who does that breaks the law. Likewise, a Christian who ADDS instrumental music breaks God's command and sins (cf. 1 Cor. 4:6 and Rev. 22).
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 3rd, 2012, 12:39 am #37

I am really tired: I am thinking about turning myself in to the institution at the suggestion of most of even the "conservative" preachers who just hate "them words."

Before I go, I would please love it if ANY musical discorders and all who use instruments in what they call "worship" could please, please, pretty please,

Find one command, example or remote inference that God ever commanded the godly people to "congregate" and sing with instrumental accompaniment.

Now, one would think that those who pour hate all down your beard would be so nice that they could find one command, example, inference or rationale
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on January 3rd, 2012, 12:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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B
B

January 3rd, 2012, 1:14 am #38

The rebellious liberals would just demand that you find a command, example, or inference where God says in the New Testament that instrumental music is sinful. Such a demand conveniently ignores what God has specified about vocal music. The "Christianity" of the rebellious liberals is based on what God DOESN'T say about His commands instead of faithfully following His commands as specified in the New Testament. In short, the "Christianity" of the rebellious liberals is based on "God didn't say not to do this or that." That is a "Christianity" based on man's preferential assumptions.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 3rd, 2012, 1:56 am #39

But, they have in effect refused to FOLD EM. They have upped the Ante loaned by the NACC

http://www.piney.com/David.Faust.Temple.html

1. David Faust insists:
I . In the Old Testament the Lord didn't merely "permit" the use of musical instruments as aids to worship.
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
He commanded their use.
2. In the old Testament the Lord didn't merely "permit'
the use of musical instruments as aids to worship.
....He blessed their use.


THEY lie and say that God commanded the Levites to be Musical Worship Ministers. The TRUTH is that God commanded the Levites to STAND IN RANKS and execute any Rick Atchley or David Faust who even went near any holy thing. Now, you never want these guys to mix the KoolAid :=)

The other card they had up their sleeve when they ran out of cash from the lord is; "we know we are sinning but grace is gonna cover us."

Rick Atchley: If youve got people who still feel that their relationship with God depends on how we do things at church, then this is not going to fly and you cant get there because you did a series on grace. An Afternoon with Rick Atchley and Chris Seidman, Part 3 (New Wineskins, September December 2010

Well, we kinda had the idea that our relationship with God was enhanced when we attended "school of the Word" of God. If Jesus is the HEAD of the church and TEACHER over the church when the elders teach that which has been taught we MIGHT benefit? Other than that God didn't authorize a staff infection to regulate our relationship the rest of the week OR eat from the Widow's plate.

If church has no effect then aren't they playing the Judas Card of trying to silence Jesus. Maybe we shouldn't pay them?</font>
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Sonny
Sonny

January 3rd, 2012, 3:52 am #40

The rebellious liberals would just demand that you find a command, example, or inference where God says in the New Testament that instrumental music is sinful. Such a demand conveniently ignores what God has specified about vocal music. The "Christianity" of the rebellious liberals is based on what God DOESN'T say about His commands instead of faithfully following His commands as specified in the New Testament. In short, the "Christianity" of the rebellious liberals is based on "God didn't say not to do this or that." That is a "Christianity" based on man's preferential assumptions.
Brother B and Brother Cruz,

Is it Scriptural to sing with one's eyes closed?

Please explain your answer/thinking.

-Sonny
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