JimmyJoe
JimmyJoe

December 26th, 2011, 11:30 pm #21

"A mature DISCIPLE does not ask whether that EXCLUDES what Jesus DID NOT commant to be taught."

A mature DISCIPLE does not think or believe that anything other than the Word of God is needed. For example, Greek Mythology, Dicha, man's history, or ANYTHING other than the 66 books which God has given us is not needed. SOME men believe that God didn't direct men to compile these 66 books, so therefore they can add anything else, such as Enoch or any other works, that are NOT a part of His Word.

Oh, and Ken, if you weren't in such a hurry to slander others, you would notice that it should be command instead of "commant."
Dave, I think I now understand where the phrase of beating a dead horse applies. I heard once that one could use the bible to prove anything one wanted. For instance, there is no God (Ps. 14:1). It's there. Also, sing and medlody in your heart (during worship service). Oops, I added a little there but no need to get technical. My point is to read the entire text and discern logically what it says.
The few that are still here may have noticed I have posted a little more often as the entertainment factor has become stale since the doctor exited. However, B seems to be a pretty good understudy. Of course Ken is still the king of cut and paste and most of it I still just scan. I just chalk it up to a bitter old man that did not get his way in Seattle or Hohenwald. Donnie is still MIA from the Madison late service critic's pew. On an unsarcastic note, Donnie I hope you have found an acceptable service where you can spend the time worshipping without having to critique anything.
I assume the moderators have labeled me a liberal like Dave and a few others that at one time posted here but have moved on but I'm just an old man that over the years has become more open minded and open hearted. But if the time ever comes that I do have all the answers this web site will be the first to know.
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Dave
Dave

December 27th, 2011, 1:05 am #22

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
How can someone (B), using sane logic, believe that using a piano to aid the voice would have ANY relation to an employee shipping out twenty boxes when the order is for 10? Relating these two proves a point that people will argue a point no matter what. Jesus, being God and knowing all things, knew that his heir, King David, also used instrumental music to Glorify God. If Jesus believed this to be controversial, or that instrumental music was inappropriate to accompany the voice, Jesus would have set it straight. Did Jesus mention that David's playing to accompany the singing was sinful? I will let B answer that. Oh, and if you need further study for your going up and beyond the original order of 10 boxes....try the parable of the talents. If a man has talents that he isn't using, or simply isn't trying to multiply those talents to the Glory of God, then what he has will be taken away.

Again, we see clearly here that B isn't look for the Truth but for to push his own preference of a capella music.

Oh, and B, you can IMPLY that I have IMPLIED that "God didn't say not to," but I have never said or implied it.

Oh, B, please tell William Crump that I said hello, ok?



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Sonny
Sonny

December 27th, 2011, 2:33 am #23

It is a sin to ADD more to Jesus' directives than what He specifies within them. Since Jesus' directive about music specifies vocal music, then it is a sin to ADD other kinds of music to His directive. It is a sin to ADD instrumental music when Jesus specifies vocal music. Yet by continuing to lobby for IM in spite of Jesus' directive to use vocal music, Dave and the other liberals imply that "God didn't say not to use IM." As we've shown many times, that philosophy is not found anywhere in the New Testament. The "God didn't say not to" philosophy is like the employee whose boss tells him to ship 10 boxes of a product to a customer, but the employee decides that if he ships 20 boxes instead, the boss will be pleased. When he gets called on the carpet for sending 20 boxes instead of 10, the employee acts innocent and says to the boss, "You didn't say I couldn't ship 20 boxes." The employee would have the boss list every possible number of cases that must not be shipped. That is asinine and ignorant.

Jesus never addressed PA systems or restrooms or pews or podiums or kitchens or electricity or plumbing or church buildings or harmony or a thousand other things; therefore, they are not doctrinal issues. Yet Dave and the other liberals say that instrumental music is not a doctrinal issue, because Jesus didn't say something like, "Sing and make melody in your hearts only with the human voice but not with mechanical instruments of any kind." Dave and the other liberals would have Jesus to list every pertinent "Thou shalt not" that applies to His specific directives. Just as it would be asinine and ignorant for the boss to list all the numbers of boxes that the employer must not ship, as illustrated above, it is just as asinine and ignorant to expect Jesus to list every conceivable "Thou shalt not" with each of his specific directives. Instead, Jesus expects His followers to be mature enough obey His specific directives as written in the New Testament without embellishing or diminishing them (1 Cor. 4:6 and Rev. 22).
Brother Crump,

I was out of town visiting a family congregation yesterday for both services and in each the anniversaries for four or five couples were mentioned for celebration, including for two elders marriages. Birthdays were also recognized. This church prided itself yesterday on not celebrating Christmas as it was a manmade holiday. I thought of how they were all still sinning in your view for announcing and honoring anniversaries and birthdays. In your view, was I sinning to be in attendance? Should I have stayed home or gone to another acapella congregation? Also, I do not know, but what if every Church of Christ in the city and county included these? Also, if another church does not recognize these in the assemblies but does use a piano, is there a difference in your view?

By the way, according to the New Testament "pattern," should the contribution be collected directly after the communion, or should a song be sung between communion and contribution? This church includes a song, whereas, my home congregation does not. Which is unscriptural? Please site book, chapter and verse.

I look for Brother Crump to dodge some of these questions or be saracastic as his pattern theology cannot be consistent on these matters and keep even a few Churches of Christ as sound and saved.

Finally, is Brother Cruz sinning for continuing to worship at Madison where they celebrate anniversaries and even worship with praise teams?

-Sonny
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 27th, 2011, 2:47 am #24

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]

When you even remotely question the Word it is a mark that you HAVE been terminated.

The reason Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words is that He is God and we are not. There is not the slightest hint that anyone being supported to Teach the Word as it has been taught would ever permit and lie to add instruments who is NOT of the Devil: Jesus said that they speak on their OWN. Because of the infinite difference between God and his creatures it is not possible that our fabrications can carry spirit along with them to make OUR spirit alive to God's Spirit. Music from mystery MEANS to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter.

Being delusional is to DENY that you do not teach "He didn't say not to" when just about every post says just that thing.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

A Disciple never whines "but, but, but" which proves that the conception of God is that He is about my size and a bit smarter. That's just fine: Many (most) are called but few (almost none) are chosen which means like Jesus

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience
....by the things which he suffered;
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect,
....he became the author of eternal salvation
....unto all them that obey him;

You cannot use MACHINES for doing hard work while Jesus comes to teach when the elders "teach that WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and OBEY JESUS CHRIST. That means that you ARE disobedient--not qualified to be a son of god. Paul warned about elders who let the WOLVES in to honor him: the wolves are the old style praise singers--boy molesters--in all of the NACCs proof examples.




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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 27th, 2011, 3:06 am #25

Brother Crump,

I was out of town visiting a family congregation yesterday for both services and in each the anniversaries for four or five couples were mentioned for celebration, including for two elders marriages. Birthdays were also recognized. This church prided itself yesterday on not celebrating Christmas as it was a manmade holiday. I thought of how they were all still sinning in your view for announcing and honoring anniversaries and birthdays. In your view, was I sinning to be in attendance? Should I have stayed home or gone to another acapella congregation? Also, I do not know, but what if every Church of Christ in the city and county included these? Also, if another church does not recognize these in the assemblies but does use a piano, is there a difference in your view?

By the way, according to the New Testament "pattern," should the contribution be collected directly after the communion, or should a song be sung between communion and contribution? This church includes a song, whereas, my home congregation does not. Which is unscriptural? Please site book, chapter and verse.

I look for Brother Crump to dodge some of these questions or be saracastic as his pattern theology cannot be consistent on these matters and keep even a few Churches of Christ as sound and saved.

Finally, is Brother Cruz sinning for continuing to worship at Madison where they celebrate anniversaries and even worship with praise teams?

-Sonny
By the way, according to the New Testament "pattern," should the contribution be collected directly after the communion, or should a song be sung between communion and contribution? This church includes a song, whereas, my home congregation does not. Which is unscriptural? Please site book, chapter and verse.

Sonny, you are far from the kingdom: the kingdom of God does NOT come with religious observations. The Kingdom of God is within you. That is why the CORE of the church from the wilderness onward is to "Teach that which is written for our learning."

There is no command to lay by in store as an act of worship. If people decided to collect money to keep the heat going during the winter then God sent our spirit to make certain that the body prepared for it does not think wacky thoughts.

The fact is--for readers--that instruments ARE MARKED from the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden" to the "Mother of harlots who uses lusted after fruits as self-speakers, singers and instrument players." The Serpent was a Musical Enchanter (ess): the Serpent or OPHIS is the same: both are called SORCERERS. All Greek literature identifies the PURPOSE of religious music as WITCHCRAFT: altering the minds of people so that they cannot think rationally.

MARK: if you think that music is WORSHIP then you do not and cannot understand that the godly civillians were NEVER gathered in a religious sense except to Read the Word in the Holy Convocation.
Because people met in synagogues or HOUSES and they sat on pews and they warmed themselves by the fire we know that none of these HINDER the core purpose to PREACH the Word by READING the Word. We have lots of examples.

Because there is no command, example or remote inference that any godly people ever assembled to engage in congregational singing WITH instrumental accompaniment, the INSTRUMENT thing has to be HALLUCINATED or borrowed from pagan cults says the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Therefore, we think that people who support a place out of the rain or snow are RATIONAL or SPIRITUAL people and teaching cannot really take place in a snow storm, GRASP that the command was to "Teach what He commanded to be taught."

We are dogmatic in saying that people who can associate instruments or a merry band of musicians deluding the people who BOUTHT that property and confiscating it, are OF SATAN: Recorded history has NO OTHER tradition but that SATAN introduced instruments to deceive the people other than JUBAL but Jubal handled instruments meaning 'Without Authority.'

The more people twist and turn the more certain that they are the VIPERS doomed to receive the baptism of fire.
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B
B

December 27th, 2011, 5:55 am #26

How can someone (B), using sane logic, believe that using a piano to aid the voice would have ANY relation to an employee shipping out twenty boxes when the order is for 10? Relating these two proves a point that people will argue a point no matter what. Jesus, being God and knowing all things, knew that his heir, King David, also used instrumental music to Glorify God. If Jesus believed this to be controversial, or that instrumental music was inappropriate to accompany the voice, Jesus would have set it straight. Did Jesus mention that David's playing to accompany the singing was sinful? I will let B answer that. Oh, and if you need further study for your going up and beyond the original order of 10 boxes....try the parable of the talents. If a man has talents that he isn't using, or simply isn't trying to multiply those talents to the Glory of God, then what he has will be taken away.

Again, we see clearly here that B isn't look for the Truth but for to push his own preference of a capella music.

Oh, and B, you can IMPLY that I have IMPLIED that "God didn't say not to," but I have never said or implied it.

Oh, B, please tell William Crump that I said hello, ok?


I didn't expect Dave to understand the logic anyway. But just for his benefit, I'll reword it so that even he should be able to understand it (but I doubt that).

Suppose the boss tells his employees to ship blue paint to customers. Some rebellious employees think that blue paint alone is boring, so they exceed the boss's authority and ship not only blue paint but red paint as well. When the boss finds out, the rebels say to him, "You said to ship blue paint, but you didn't say not to ship red paint." The rebels were fired, because they exceeded the boss's directive, because they ADDED a different kind of paint than what the boss had specified.

In this analogy, God (the boss) tells Christians (the employees) to use vocal music (the blue paint). The liberals (the rebels) think that vocal music alone is boring, so they exceed God's authority and ADD instrumental music (the red paint). When called to task, the rebels say, "God said to use vocal music, but He didn't say not to use instrumental music." The rebels sinned (are fired), because they exceeded God's directive, because they ADDED a different kind of music than what God specified.

For faithful believers, no further explanation is necessary; for the rebellious, no further explanation is possible.
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Dave
Dave

December 27th, 2011, 2:51 pm #27

How can someone (B), using sane logic, believe that using a piano to aid the voice would have ANY relation to an employee shipping out twenty boxes when the order is for 10? Relating these two proves a point that people will argue a point no matter what. Jesus, being God and knowing all things, knew that his heir, King David, also used instrumental music to Glorify God. If Jesus believed this to be controversial, or that instrumental music was inappropriate to accompany the voice, Jesus would have set it straight. Did Jesus mention that David's playing to accompany the singing was sinful? I will let B answer that. Oh, and if you need further study for your going up and beyond the original order of 10 boxes....try the parable of the talents. If a man has talents that he isn't using, or simply isn't trying to multiply those talents to the Glory of God, then what he has will be taken away.

Again, we see clearly here that B isn't look for the Truth but for to push his own preference of a capella music.

Oh, and B, you can IMPLY that I have IMPLIED that "God didn't say not to," but I have never said or implied it.

Oh, B, please tell William Crump that I said hello, ok?


Throughout the history of our Lord, we have seen singing and dancing and singing and playing of the instruments along with the singing. Now B wants to believe that because the NT doesn't specifically speak of sing with instruments, then it should be avoided. I see.
And the NT says that it should be vocal music ONLY, right?
Wrong! Again, that is people wanting to abuse Scripture to make their traditions better than someone else's tradition.
The sin is in the fact that musical instruments aren't listed as sin. When people add sins to the Word that is not already listed, therein lies the sin.
Again, recorded history shows that David pleased God in playing and singing. Pleasing God in that manner didn't stop when Jesus died on the cross.
B, maybe you could try the one about the man who ordered a hotdog with relish and got ketchup too....that is always a stellar one.
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Dave
Dave

December 27th, 2011, 8:30 pm #28

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
Ken said "The reason Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words is that He is God and we are not."


....He is God and we are not.....

Now there's a bonafide truth if I ever saw one Ken. If you could speak like that all the time your listeners might actually listen to you.

Thank you.

However, when you add words that aren't a part of the 66 books you are speaking and adding "that which is not written." You go against what you teach.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 27th, 2011, 8:35 pm #29

I didn't expect Dave to understand the logic anyway. But just for his benefit, I'll reword it so that even he should be able to understand it (but I doubt that).

Suppose the boss tells his employees to ship blue paint to customers. Some rebellious employees think that blue paint alone is boring, so they exceed the boss's authority and ship not only blue paint but red paint as well. When the boss finds out, the rebels say to him, "You said to ship blue paint, but you didn't say not to ship red paint." The rebels were fired, because they exceeded the boss's directive, because they ADDED a different kind of paint than what the boss had specified.

In this analogy, God (the boss) tells Christians (the employees) to use vocal music (the blue paint). The liberals (the rebels) think that vocal music alone is boring, so they exceed God's authority and ADD instrumental music (the red paint). When called to task, the rebels say, "God said to use vocal music, but He didn't say not to use instrumental music." The rebels sinned (are fired), because they exceeded God's directive, because they ADDED a different kind of music than what God specified.

For faithful believers, no further explanation is necessary; for the rebellious, no further explanation is possible.
B "For faithful believers, no further explanation is necessary; for the rebellious, no further explanation is possible."

That sums it up: a person OF FAITH or OF TRUTH would not even think about rebuking a human who gave them orders to do something. Those who look for LOOPHOLES are legalists getting a Phd in "How to Do End-Runs around the stated Will of God."

Like I say, there is no command, example or remote inference that God ever commanded or that the people meet at the synagogue to do congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

The periodic PROOF EXAMPLES (2 Chron 29) might be removed by almost 300 years from the last example of David's Plague Stopping Sacrifice at which he did not use instruments. These people had been ABANDONED to what amounts to Devil worship.

Since there is no remote wisp of a shadow that God APPROVES of instruments the only other source for lying in order to impose it upon duped masses is from the Devil. All of those who impose instruments most often collect money for the "lord" and when they feel secure spring their hidden agenda to turn the church over to those who were born with the defect of lying about all of the Bible trying to force others to IMPOSE instruments as a CONDITION of their fellowshiping them.

Speaking of the music condemned by Amos in chapters 5, 6 and 8. We note that:

"The marzeah had an extremely long history extending at least from the 14th century B.C. through the Roman period. In the 14th century B.C., it was prominently associated with the ancient Canaanite city of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra), on the coast of Syria... The marzeah was a pagan ritual that took the form of a social and religious association... Some scholars regard the funerary marzeah as a feast for--and with--deceased ancestors (or Rephaim, a proper name in the Bible for the inhabitants of Sheol)." (King, Biblical Archaeological Review, Aug, 1988, p. 35, 35)

"These five elements are: (1) reclining or relaxing, (2) eating a meat meal, (3) singing with harp or other musical accompaniment, (4) drinking wine and (5) anointing oneself with oil." (King, p. 37).

"With the wine-drinking (which is the literal meaning of the Hebrew for feasting), went music and dancing." (Heaton, E. W., Everyday Life in Old Testament

"Worship was form more than substance; consequently, conduct in the marketplace was totally unaffected by worship in the holy place. Amos spoke from the conviction that social justice is an integral part of the Mosaic covenant, which regulates relations not only between God and people, but also among people." (King, p. 44).

"In pagan traditions, musical instruments are invented by gods or demi-gods, such as titans. In the Bible, credit is assigned to antediluvian patriarchs, for example, the descendants of Cain in Genesis 4:21. There is no other biblical tradition about the invention of musical instruments." (Freedman, David Noel, Bible Review, Summer 1985, p. 51).


And Jubal HANDLED instruments WITHOUT AUTHORITY. YES, when they say a spirit told them to do it it was the Devil made them do it.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 27th, 2011, 8:55 pm #30

Ken said "The reason Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed seeking our own pleasure or speaking our own words is that He is God and we are not."


....He is God and we are not.....

Now there's a bonafide truth if I ever saw one Ken. If you could speak like that all the time your listeners might actually listen to you.

Thank you.

However, when you add words that aren't a part of the 66 books you are speaking and adding "that which is not written." You go against what you teach.

http://www.piney.com/SerpentWorship.html

When ALL of the deliberate sowers of discord DENY that the Bible repudiates all of the performing arts (hypocrites), I just have to define words a resource CLOSED OFF from those who SELL their body as mediator and then lie about all truth.

When they claim that EVERYONE used instruments and the Pharisees stopped I just have to point out that they are liars and their tongue is already on fire. Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites by pointing to Isaiah and Ezekial 33 which NAMES NAMES: slick preachers, singers and instrument players.

As a last resort to prove that they are sons of the Devil because "they speak on their own"(Jesus). And I have had to rummage through all recorded history of music in the church beginning with clay tablets to prove that there is not a JOT OR TITTLE of recorded history which does not mark people using instruments in "religion" were "Drunk, Peverted or just mocking people."

Since Jude was a student of Enoch he would have understood that those FOR WHOM God comes in judgment are musical deceivers: soothsayers, sorcerers.

Jude says that they are:

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens persons in admiration because of advantage.
?

Enoch 7: 10 Then they took wives, each choosing for himself; whom they began to approach, and with whom they cohabited; teaching them sorcery, incantations, and the dividing of roots and trees.

-Epa^eid , contr. Att. epad , fut.
A. -asomai Ar.Ec.1153, etc.; -as Ach.Tat.2.7:sing to or in accompaniment, magos anr . . e. theogonin Hdt.1.132; dan khor E.El.864(lyr.):Pass., Arr.An.2.16.3.
2. sing as an incantation, ha hai Seirnes epdon t Odussei X.Mem.2.6.11; khr ta toiauta hsper epadein heaut Pl.Phd.114d, cf. 77e; e. hmin autois touton ton logon Id.R.608a; e. tini sing to one so as to charm or soothe him, Id.Phdr.267d, Lg.812c, al.:Pass., Porph.Chr.35: abs., use charms or incantations, Pl.Tht.157c; epaeidn by means of charms, A.Ag.1021 (lyr.), cf. Pl.Lg.773d, Tht.149d.

-Euripides, Electra 859 . Set your step to the dance, my dear, [860] like a fawn leaping high up to heaven with joy. Your brother is victorious and has accomplished the wearing of a crown . . . beside the streams of Alpheus . Come sing [865] a glorious victory ode, to my dance.

-Magos [a^, ou, ho, Magian, one of a Median tribe, Hdt.1.101, Str. 15.3.1: hence, as belonging to this tribe,
2. one of the priests and wise men in Persia who interpreted dreams, Hdt.7.37, al., Arist.Fr. 36, Phoen.1.5, Ev.Matt.2.1.
3. enchanter, wizard, esp. in bad sense, impostor, charlatan, Heraclit.14, S.OT387, E.Or.1498 (lyr.), Pl.R.572e, Act.Ap.13.6, Vett. Val.74.17: also fem., Luc.Asin.4, AP 5.15 (Marc. Arg.).
II. magos, on, as Adj., magical, magps tekhn prattein ti Philostr.VA1.2; kestou phneusa magtera


I just keep challenging your PhDuh to find one jot or tittle of instruments connected with the worship of a Spirit God. NOPE: Israel had been abandoned to worship the starry host. They can't even read Acts 7 and ask for the meaning.

All Recorded history and traditions prove that instruments were introduced by the DEVIL as sorcery or soothsaying to PREVENT people from hearing the Word of God. It certainly works on certain class of frogs which can be boiled proving that they are inhabited by Frog Demons--quacks.

You know that you are in the period of LYING WONDERS when people become "doctors of the law" just to take away the key to knowledge.


Last edited by Ken.Sublett on December 27th, 2011, 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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