B
B

December 25th, 2011, 4:12 pm #11

Hey Sublett, get your facts straight. Madison did not fly too close to the sun. They stay close to the Son. However, if it was just a typo, nevermind.
If churches really want to stay close to the SON, they will ditch the typical theatrics that are present therein today, such as "praise teams" and soloists. Jesus didn't use those kinds of theatrics; therefore, neither should churches. BTW, His miracles could hardly be called "theatrics." After all, no church or televangelist today can duplicate the miracles that Jesus did, such as raising the dead. And please, don't cite as "miracles" the idiotic televangelists who stick their fingers in the ears of shills, scream "HEAL HEAL" and mumble some "unknown tongue," then pop out their fingers as the shills holler, "I can HEAR! It's a miracle!"
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Dave
Dave

December 26th, 2011, 4:18 am #12

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That's an excellent title message, B. That fully explains how sinful division truly is.

We have also covered the devil's "scheme" list before. I believe it would be a great idea to bump the following thread every so often and serve as a refresher course -- we all need it:

Source: A NEW BIG PICTURE: "THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING! THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING!" [/color]
"Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences."

Safety? What happened to the the man with one talent who played it safe?
Ooops! Not sure about a SAFE choice, but the RIGHT choice is to SING, whether accompanied or not by instruments. The RIGHT choices is to make sure we, like King David, use all of our skills and abilities to please and Glorify God.

Preference? Where does the Bible state anything about the use of a PA system? Is that Scriptural or preferential?
Ooops! Same ole same ole....when someone wants to protect a tradition (a capella) they will not stop, even to the point of abusing Scripture.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 26th, 2011, 7:50 am #13

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Oops, another 3rd grader's argument by equating the PA system with any mechanical music device(s) used in "worship."

Here's more of Dave's equation:

a) If the PA system equates musical instruments,
b) Then, the air-conditioning unit also equates musical instruments.
c) And this list can grow rapidly.

What was the "loud speaker" system (such as what was used by the messenger in order to be heard in gatherings in the early centuries) prior to the invention of the PA system? Would Dave present another 3rd grader level argument by equating the use of the pre-PA system with musical instruments?[/color]
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B
B

December 26th, 2011, 3:31 pm #14

Dave continues to talk about the PA system, which Jesus never addressed, in the same breath that he talks about music, which Jesus DID address. Since Jesus did not address the PA system, it is not a doctrinal issue. There is no sin if we have a PA system.

On the other hand, since Jesus DID address music--specifically vocal music--then it IS a doctrinal issue. We comply with Jesus' directive when we have vocal music, but we stray from His directive and sin when we implement or ADD other kinds of music that Jesus did not include in His directive.

Because Dave and others lobby for IM, they conveniently ignore the fact that, had Jesus said, "Worship Me with music" and had not been more specific, then we would have been free to have vocal music alone, instrumental music alone, or the two together. However, since Jesus directed us to sing and make melody in our hearts, then we are NOT free to add instrumental music. We are bound by the specifics within Jesus' directive about vocal music.

Now since Dave persists in placing the PA system (a non-doctrinal issue) on the same level with music (a doctrinal issue), then he only desires to be argumentative and is driven by his deep-rooted preference for IM, even though his church does not (yet) implement IM.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 26th, 2011, 5:46 pm #15

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them
.... in the name [singular] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
.... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Gospel is the gospel of the Kingdom: whatever Jesus taught about the kingdom of God which is NOT of this world is good news because it rescues us from the Crooked Race or Race of Vipers: Jesus does not even PRAY for the World.
Both the word BURDEN and REST outlaws any kind of mind-alteration always the mark of someone trying to pick your pockets.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the GOSPEL to every creature.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
.... but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
.... Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The PROPHETS wrote through the Spirit OF (preposition) Christ.
All of the Prophets radically condemn the Levitical musicians who worked for the King and commanders of the army.

1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently,
....who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify,
.... when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The SAYINGS OF JESUS define what Jesus taught and commanded to be taught.
Even if you ignore all of the word definitions you will find Christ condemning instruments as the future Rest is defined.
You will find no COMMAND, EXAMPLE or sensical inference that Jesus gave any authoriity to suppress His Words in song and sermon with the use of machines.

David will never get it.




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Dave
Dave

December 26th, 2011, 7:17 pm #16

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
Donnie,
Since you are at the third grade level, I simply can't help you.
I will, however, address B.

B doesn't want to talk about the PA system, which Jesus never addressed, just as he never addressed four part harmony. Since Jesus did not address the PA nor four part harmony nor whether to accompany the music with instruments, it is not a doctrinal issue. There is no sin if we have a PA system nor four part harmony nor instrumental music. The PA system and musical instruments only aid the singing. If the singing was prohibited by the PA or the instruments it would be an issue. For further information on what is considered an AID or an ADDITION look to Donnie's or B's corresponding charts that describe each.

On the other hand, since Jesus DID address music--specifically vocal music--then it IS a doctrinal issue. We comply with Jesus' directive when we have vocal music, and since we have already proven that the PA nor instruments of music keep one from singing, then the sin comes in when we stray from His directive when we implement or ADD a sin to God's Word that wasn't there before. Adding instrumental music as being sinful to the Word of God is where the sin lies. If the directive to sing were prohibited by the instrument, then it would be sinful. It, however, does not!

Because B and others lobby against IM, they conveniently bolster and push their agenda of a capella music, which in and of itself is not sinful. The sin comes in when you want to counter that someone's tradition isn't as good. More importantly, when someone abuses Scripture to state that one tradition is AUTHORIZED over another, we see the trappings of sin. When B and others have to gather assumptions about what Jesus MIGHT have said, such as "Worship Me with music" and other worthless diatribe, then we see these men wagering a war of words instead of a true search for the Truth.



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 26th, 2011, 7:54 pm #17

Spiritual worship is something that can take place ONLY in the spirit or mind.
Jesus said that if God seeks it, it will be IN THE SPIRIT as a place which is opposite to on a MOUNTAIN or a PLACE

Paul said that the converts NOW worshipped IN THE SPIRIT which was opposite to IN THE FLESH. This is the only way you can keep the dogs out (Phil 3).

Worship was "giving heed to that which is written for our learning." You worship what you give heed to. That means that people lust to worship the limp-wristed performing musicians.

NO one who can associate a MACHINE FOR DOING HARD WORK with worship IN THE SPIRIT will ever be able to comprehend that Christ ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church in the wilderness as A School (only) of the Word (only). Now, no disciple of Christ would think that you can replace the Words of Christ (prophets and apostles) with silly praise ditties calculated to stroke all of your pleasure centers.

The PURPOSE DRIVEN purpose of singing (very simple) was to TEACH and ADMONISH one another. That EXCLUDES all machines for doing hard work because they have no BREATH and cannot teach. Nor can you engage the Left-Mental-Rational-Spiritual hemisphere and the Right-Irrational-Emotional at the same time.

The CENI is to Teach what Jesus COMMANDED to be taught. A mature DISCIPLE does not ask whether that EXCLUDES what Jesus DID NOT commant to be taught. You have 167/168 to teach your own Turkey Soup for the Senseless but IF you force Christians to pay for it then Jesus defines you as a Scribe or Pharisee, hypocrite. Christ defined them as self preachers, singers or instrument players.

The Levite patternists performed as Soothsayers with instrumental accompaniment
The "fruits" in Revelation 18 performed as Sorcerers with instrumental accompaniment.

It's True: Jesus never said "thou shall not be a WITCH with instrumets as mind control." Go ahead. Self-speak or Chicken-Soup sermons are the MARK of those who have already been DEselected. Instruments at Mount Sinai MARKED a people determined to follow the Worship of the Starry host and be consigned back to BABYLON. Why do you suppose that so many "pulpits" use that and say that "a spirit" told them that this was God's command for THIS church? What we call God is the SPIRIT that permeates the universe: In him we live, move and have our being. Worshiping Him as a people older and smarter than Jesus is proof that people have USED music to prevent people from aligning their spirit with the universal Spirit. These people are OF the Word and Jesus does not pray for them or give them authority to steal from the widows.

This, of course, is addressed to those who have NOT taken the mark of the world.

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Dave
Dave

December 26th, 2011, 8:25 pm #18

Jesus Prayed for Unity

John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

In this prayer Jesus asked His Father to allow the church to all be one. The Lord's strong desire was based on the last statement of this verse "so that the world may believe that you have sent me".

Paul commanded Unity

1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Division does harm to the body of Christ, and to it's ability to carry out the great commission. Notice that Paul does not preach "unity in diversity" but says "be united in the same mind and the same judgment".

There is only one way for this unity to exist. Having the same mind and same judgement can only come from agreement upon God's Word. The apostles new this, as we will notice shortly, and those brave men who started the restoration movement knew this. That is why they abandoned all creeds and consulted only the bible for all aspects of faith and worship. Their plee became "Let us speak where the bible speaks, and be silent where the bible is silent". The authority of the silence of scriptures is not a man made doctrine.

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

2 John 1:9 Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


It is clear that we are not to go beyond what is written and interject the ideas of man into spiritual matters.

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We go beyond what is written by adding to or taking away from God's Word, and when we do so we are not abiding in the doctrine of Christ.

Do Instruments in the worship go beyond what is written?
commands
Colossians 3:16, Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:19, Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;


Example
Matthew 26:30 And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Instrumental Music in the assembly goes beyond what we see examples of and commands for in scripture.

Safety First
We all understand this concept, when presented with two options take the safest option.

How do we apply this to scriptural worship?

Everyone agrees that singing without the aid of an instrument is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. Not everyone agrees that instrumental music is acceptable to God in the worship assembly. The safes choice to avoid division would be to keep instruments out of the worship assembly. Remember, division is a sin, and should not be caused by someones preferences.

Who caused this division? Division was caused by those who went beyond what is written.

What about christian liberty?
1 Corinthians 8:1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that "all of us possess knowledge." This "knowledge" puffs up, but love builds up.
2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.
3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one."
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.
8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.
9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.
10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died.
12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.
13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

1Co 10:23 "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up.


My Christian Liberty ends where my brother's or sister's conscience begins.

Its like American freedom: My freedom ends where my fist meets your nose.

If in exercising my freedom I punch you in the nose, I go to jail.

If in exercising my Christian Liberty I cause my brother to stumble, or cause division, I sin against Christ.

From either perspective it is a sin to divide a congregation by bringing instruments into the worship.

Let us have unity based on God's Word.

In Christ,
Doug Jones

________________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Original Date of Post: November 15 2007 at 5:02 PM
From: RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST Concerned Members
[/color]
"A mature DISCIPLE does not ask whether that EXCLUDES what Jesus DID NOT commant to be taught."

A mature DISCIPLE does not think or believe that anything other than the Word of God is needed. For example, Greek Mythology, Dicha, man's history, or ANYTHING other than the 66 books which God has given us is not needed. SOME men believe that God didn't direct men to compile these 66 books, so therefore they can add anything else, such as Enoch or any other works, that are NOT a part of His Word.

Oh, and Ken, if you weren't in such a hurry to slander others, you would notice that it should be command instead of "commant."
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 26th, 2011, 10:05 pm #19

Couldn't have been better said. Jesus connected unity based on His Word. There simply cannot be unity based on my word which has no more authority than your word.

It's really pretty simple: If it has not been taught then you cause division when you reject the command of Jesus to "teach what I have commanded to be taught." That really is not complicated at all: The Sayings of Jesus are collected in the gospel accounts and if we follow HIS Wisdom we don't need anything which is NOT based on His wisdom.

I don't understand people who have "run out" of the teachings of Christ in the Apostles and Prophets. The Campbell's didn't do any harm to others when they--like Paul--restricted the community gatherings to teaching and musing on the Word of God.

Ken
I have Updated Ryan Christian's absolute definition of fulfilled prophecy. Those who have been deluded produce lying wonders. These are religious services devoted to all of the performing arts and artists.

If this doesn't make you blush then nothing can.

http://www.piney.com/Jay.Guin.Ryan.Chri ... .Pipe.html
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B
B

December 26th, 2011, 10:36 pm #20

Donnie,
Since you are at the third grade level, I simply can't help you.
I will, however, address B.

B doesn't want to talk about the PA system, which Jesus never addressed, just as he never addressed four part harmony. Since Jesus did not address the PA nor four part harmony nor whether to accompany the music with instruments, it is not a doctrinal issue. There is no sin if we have a PA system nor four part harmony nor instrumental music. The PA system and musical instruments only aid the singing. If the singing was prohibited by the PA or the instruments it would be an issue. For further information on what is considered an AID or an ADDITION look to Donnie's or B's corresponding charts that describe each.

On the other hand, since Jesus DID address music--specifically vocal music--then it IS a doctrinal issue. We comply with Jesus' directive when we have vocal music, and since we have already proven that the PA nor instruments of music keep one from singing, then the sin comes in when we stray from His directive when we implement or ADD a sin to God's Word that wasn't there before. Adding instrumental music as being sinful to the Word of God is where the sin lies. If the directive to sing were prohibited by the instrument, then it would be sinful. It, however, does not!

Because B and others lobby against IM, they conveniently bolster and push their agenda of a capella music, which in and of itself is not sinful. The sin comes in when you want to counter that someone's tradition isn't as good. More importantly, when someone abuses Scripture to state that one tradition is AUTHORIZED over another, we see the trappings of sin. When B and others have to gather assumptions about what Jesus MIGHT have said, such as "Worship Me with music" and other worthless diatribe, then we see these men wagering a war of words instead of a true search for the Truth.


It is a sin to ADD more to Jesus' directives than what He specifies within them. Since Jesus' directive about music specifies vocal music, then it is a sin to ADD other kinds of music to His directive. It is a sin to ADD instrumental music when Jesus specifies vocal music. Yet by continuing to lobby for IM in spite of Jesus' directive to use vocal music, Dave and the other liberals imply that "God didn't say not to use IM." As we've shown many times, that philosophy is not found anywhere in the New Testament. The "God didn't say not to" philosophy is like the employee whose boss tells him to ship 10 boxes of a product to a customer, but the employee decides that if he ships 20 boxes instead, the boss will be pleased. When he gets called on the carpet for sending 20 boxes instead of 10, the employee acts innocent and says to the boss, "You didn't say I couldn't ship 20 boxes." The employee would have the boss list every possible number of cases that must not be shipped. That is asinine and ignorant.

Jesus never addressed PA systems or restrooms or pews or podiums or kitchens or electricity or plumbing or church buildings or harmony or a thousand other things; therefore, they are not doctrinal issues. Yet Dave and the other liberals say that instrumental music is not a doctrinal issue, because Jesus didn't say something like, "Sing and make melody in your hearts only with the human voice but not with mechanical instruments of any kind." Dave and the other liberals would have Jesus to list every pertinent "Thou shalt not" that applies to His specific directives. Just as it would be asinine and ignorant for the boss to list all the numbers of boxes that the employer must not ship, as illustrated above, it is just as asinine and ignorant to expect Jesus to list every conceivable "Thou shalt not" with each of his specific directives. Instead, Jesus expects His followers to be mature enough obey His specific directives as written in the New Testament without embellishing or diminishing them (1 Cor. 4:6 and Rev. 22).
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