Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

November 29th, 2006, 2:57 am #21

Jimmy,

I'd love to meet you here and then at a place of your choosing (though I am not the poster).

Calvin
Calvin first let me thank you for using a real name. Then let me ask you what you would like to debate.

I offered to meet with the "other student" only because he declare his willingness to address any issue any previous writer may have in a public forum because the hypocrisy is unimaginable amongst those who critique Rochester and its professors and supporters. And he included the name of Rubel shelly.

Do you find the complaints and criticism against the teachings of Rubel Shelly to be "unimaginable hypocrisy?"

In Christ,
Jimmy
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

November 29th, 2006, 3:28 pm #22

Hello Church of Christ Members,

I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.

"Theologians Under Hitler" Event
Nov. 17, 2005

(See this article first for a summary - http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _dec05.asp)

What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.

Black History Month Controversy
Feb. 15, 2006

(Please check http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... dents.html for information as the speech took place in Rochester College's Assembly and was not covered by the media)

After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the Snopes.com page provided enough evidence even without the blog.

"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006

(Please check our blog for 1) the post containing the actual text by Dr. Barton here: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... hield.html and 2) the response to his article on the blog: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... s-and.html)

In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.

"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006

In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.

In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.

In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.

Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.
Because Rochester brought Shelly north to suck in young "ministers" and one textbook defines the Missional Church which restores Apostles and Prophets, the future of Rochester has been DIVERTED so that Lucian Palmer would not recognize it. Therefore RUBEL SHELLY IS ROCHESTER for anyone seeking to hire a preacher boy Paul and Alexander Campbell thought they had removed.

Rubel believes that ALL TRUTH except a few facts ABOUT Jesus have been shot away by Evolution and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (kicks in close to the speed of Light). Therefore, he admits to TAKING LIBERTY with the old fragments in order to use Narrative Theology to concoct a New set of truth because OUR culture has changed. That means that ROCHESTER and any of its HATCHLINGS will have their forehead branded with the denial that Scripture is inspired. The Just Jesus mantra and turning to the "gospels" is confessed to be because the epistles are divisive teachings by divisive apostles.

Rubel Shelly believes and teaches:
<font color=red>Here is what God wants churches passionate about:
(1) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
(2) that whoever believes in him SHALL not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).</font>
  • Jesus founded the ekklesia which is a synagogue which is a school of the Bible. The evangelist (not Shelly's LOCATED EVANGELIST) must be passionate about GOING and PREACHING. He makes disciples by BAPTIZING AND TEACHING whatever Jesus taught and Jesus said very little about JUST JESUS.

    The Israelites had to "look upon" the serpent) <font color=blue>John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. </font>

    Should is not shall which means a certainty.

    <font color=blue>Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
    that whosoever believeth in him SHOULD not perish,
    but have everlasting life.</font>

    Those who believe have the POWER TO BECOME the children of God. That means that they are justified or have LEGAL STANDING TO request A holy spirit or A good conscience BY being baptized to WASH AWAY THEIR SINS. Jesus is PASSIONATE about washing people and adding them to the church which is NOT a pagan worship center BUT a school of the Bible. The REAL Jesus was passionate about saving people ONLY at the time and place of a NEW BIRTH for one who had ALREADY been born of Amniotic fluid: Rubel misteaches this.

    <font color=blue>Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what SHALL we do? Brian, BE BAPTIZED is an ACTIVE VERB:

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.)</font>
    A person who BELIEVETH is a person who COMPLIETH. If you believe you MAY then be baptized and THEN have God remit your sins and THEN give you life.
<font color=red>(3) "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).

(4) "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: (5) While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (6) Since we have now been justified by his blood, (7) how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:8-9).</font>
  • (Justified does not mean SAVED: <font color=blue>Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also SHOULD walk in newness of life.) </font><>
<font color=red>These are the essentials of Christian faith. It is this COREmessage ABOUTJesus
that we share In common with othe
Bible-believing, cross-proclaiming,
resurrection-confessing, born-again persons
that constitutes us a church.</font>
  • ESSENTIALS means that NOTHING Jesus taught and inspired Apostles heard in a "face to face" encounter with God and wrote for our READING (the masculine form) and MEMORY are essential. Now that Rubel has stripped off all of the APPLE he preaches that He is to "partner with God to work out OUR salvation" which he INTERPRETS to mean "a new APPLE which only the community or commune" can work out: individuals are not "lone rangers."

    There is a lot MORE core ABOUT Jesus but Shelly totally removes Jesus Christ as the ONLY teacher when we teach that which has been taught: Jesus can save you but NOT teach you what the Apostles thought were the teachings BY Jesus.

    That means ecumenical affirmation, as Shelly makes certain, the Stoneite instrumentalists who are ECUMENICAL in seeking to force peaceable churches to become MUSICAL.

    That is the Just-Jesus dogma which Rubel etal hallucinate because they THINK that Paul said that he had resolved to PREACH only Christ and Him Crucified. That is terminal ignorance or terminal deception! Paul said that he had decied to KNOW only Christ and Him crucified. Paul defines that in 2 Corinthians to DISQUALIFY the rich and famous who do not LIVE and SUFFER and risk their LIVES like Christ in order to preach the gospel.
<font color=red>Outside the ESSENCE of the gospel,
there are OTHER features that reflect OUR HISTORY and CONSENSUS interpretations of the LARGER biblical message.</font>

Pople like Rubel and some at Rochester repeat the MANTRA and using words like sectarian, legalistic, patternists, traditionalists and other RACA words, like Goebbels, know that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it. Like Hitler if you tell it in a GREAT DEMONSTRATION intended to prove to people that they are "losers" already and need to JOIN EARLY. The CORE issue of the eternal troublerrs in Zion is the Musical Worship Team leading to Instrumental Music. SAVED FROM WRATH means to be SAVED FROM ORGE meaning ORGY which is exactly what the JUBILATORS are promoting. Salvation is FROM the Crooked Generation meaning the SKOLION SINGERS wich was the new wineskin NON-Israelites who ruled Jerusalem.

Rubel Shelly: seems to agree with those of whom he writes:<font color=red>They had to strain the story of Jesus through philosophical sieves. They had to create and clarify special terms. They made entrance into their circles a matter of "enlightenment" as reflected in peculiar vocabulary and interpretations.

In the meanwhile, the CORE gospel has survived two millennia now in its NARRATIVE FORM of telling the big story through collections of little ones about Jesus.</font>

http://www.piney.com/RSJohn2112.html

Rochester are at the WWDJ stage: Have you utterly repudiated the Bible and the universal Biblical and church History belief that it is the TEXTBOOK for our learning and as authority in FAITH AND PRACTICE? Rubel is not a believer in the Biblical or classical sense of the word because, one suspects, he uses it as a PATTERN BOOK after all rather as something to be READ and REHEARSED as we REST from the neo-pagan "worship" rituals of watching disturbed people CLAIMING to be mediators using the POPULAR ARTS which defines HYPOCRITES and DEMAGOGUES.

If you could prove that the Bible is NOT capable of teaching and MOLDING people through edification or education, THEN you are still left with the fact that to ACCEPT PAY for pretending (meaning of hypocrite) to be a Christ-follower while denouncing those who have BIBLE and HISTORY universally in their favor is, according to Charles Spurgeion, so low ethically and morally that he struggled to find a word to define it.
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Calvin Moore
Calvin Moore

November 30th, 2006, 1:33 am #23

Calvin first let me thank you for using a real name. Then let me ask you what you would like to debate.

I offered to meet with the "other student" only because he declare his willingness to address any issue any previous writer may have in a public forum because the hypocrisy is unimaginable amongst those who critique Rochester and its professors and supporters. And he included the name of Rubel shelly.

Do you find the complaints and criticism against the teachings of Rubel Shelly to be "unimaginable hypocrisy?"

In Christ,
Jimmy
I'm looking to sit and talk with you and about characterizations of people such as Rubel Shelly and the accusations being lobbed at RC, public or private. For starters, Rubel Shelly is NOT Rochester College as some have said. He has never once denied inspired Scripture in the conversations we have had with one another. We have agreed and disagreed on a number of points and lived in a spirit of charity. We both have enough of a sense of fallibalism that we could BOTH be wrong about certain things. But, he is not the only voice on the campus. Many within the religion faculty here at RC disagree from point-to-point on various subjects...as you will find within every church in America. So, in that, I do find a measure of hypocrisy. Even those who post here will find differences in terms of what Scripture demands of them in areas of faith in practice. Some will claim binding, others will claim freedom in Christ. The music issue is SO overblown/ridiculous that those who post here no longer even make sense to those without a doctorate in theology. JESUS didn't even talk that way. He talked about logs and vineyards, lost coins, and sheep. I find hypocrisy in the elevation of theology (an invention of man in his desire to better understand God) to the thing itself--God. Those are my thoughts and I will no longer post here. You can always e-mail me to keep this conversation going or call me on my cell, which I will give via email should you so desire. Ultimately, I think posting here accomplishes very little. If you would like to meet and relate and commune with one another, awesome. We can even formally debate. But, this here...this means nothing to me. I don't know if that answers your questions at all, but email me and we can continue. As for here..no more.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 28th, 2007, 3:47 am #24

Because Rochester brought Shelly north to suck in young "ministers" and one textbook defines the Missional Church which restores Apostles and Prophets, the future of Rochester has been DIVERTED so that Lucian Palmer would not recognize it. Therefore RUBEL SHELLY IS ROCHESTER for anyone seeking to hire a preacher boy Paul and Alexander Campbell thought they had removed.

Rubel believes that ALL TRUTH except a few facts ABOUT Jesus have been shot away by Evolution and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (kicks in close to the speed of Light). Therefore, he admits to TAKING LIBERTY with the old fragments in order to use Narrative Theology to concoct a New set of truth because OUR culture has changed. That means that ROCHESTER and any of its HATCHLINGS will have their forehead branded with the denial that Scripture is inspired. The Just Jesus mantra and turning to the "gospels" is confessed to be because the epistles are divisive teachings by divisive apostles.

Rubel Shelly believes and teaches:
<font color=red>Here is what God wants churches passionate about:
(1) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
(2) that whoever believes in him SHALL not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).</font>
  • Jesus founded the ekklesia which is a synagogue which is a school of the Bible. The evangelist (not Shelly's LOCATED EVANGELIST) must be passionate about GOING and PREACHING. He makes disciples by BAPTIZING AND TEACHING whatever Jesus taught and Jesus said very little about JUST JESUS.

    The Israelites had to "look upon" the serpent) <font color=blue>John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. </font>

    Should is not shall which means a certainty.

    <font color=blue>Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
    that whosoever believeth in him SHOULD not perish,
    but have everlasting life.</font>

    Those who believe have the POWER TO BECOME the children of God. That means that they are justified or have LEGAL STANDING TO request A holy spirit or A good conscience BY being baptized to WASH AWAY THEIR SINS. Jesus is PASSIONATE about washing people and adding them to the church which is NOT a pagan worship center BUT a school of the Bible. The REAL Jesus was passionate about saving people ONLY at the time and place of a NEW BIRTH for one who had ALREADY been born of Amniotic fluid: Rubel misteaches this.

    <font color=blue>Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God.

    Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what SHALL we do? Brian, BE BAPTIZED is an ACTIVE VERB:

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.)</font>
    A person who BELIEVETH is a person who COMPLIETH. If you believe you MAY then be baptized and THEN have God remit your sins and THEN give you life.
<font color=red>(3) "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ" (Acts 2:36).

(4) "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: (5) While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (6) Since we have now been justified by his blood, (7) how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:8-9).</font>
  • (Justified does not mean SAVED: <font color=blue>Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also SHOULD walk in newness of life.) </font><>
<font color=red>These are the essentials of Christian faith. It is this COREmessage ABOUTJesus
that we share In common with othe
Bible-believing, cross-proclaiming,
resurrection-confessing, born-again persons
that constitutes us a church.</font>
  • ESSENTIALS means that NOTHING Jesus taught and inspired Apostles heard in a "face to face" encounter with God and wrote for our READING (the masculine form) and MEMORY are essential. Now that Rubel has stripped off all of the APPLE he preaches that He is to "partner with God to work out OUR salvation" which he INTERPRETS to mean "a new APPLE which only the community or commune" can work out: individuals are not "lone rangers."

    There is a lot MORE core ABOUT Jesus but Shelly totally removes Jesus Christ as the ONLY teacher when we teach that which has been taught: Jesus can save you but NOT teach you what the Apostles thought were the teachings BY Jesus.

    That means ecumenical affirmation, as Shelly makes certain, the Stoneite instrumentalists who are ECUMENICAL in seeking to force peaceable churches to become MUSICAL.

    That is the Just-Jesus dogma which Rubel etal hallucinate because they THINK that Paul said that he had resolved to PREACH only Christ and Him Crucified. That is terminal ignorance or terminal deception! Paul said that he had decied to KNOW only Christ and Him crucified. Paul defines that in 2 Corinthians to DISQUALIFY the rich and famous who do not LIVE and SUFFER and risk their LIVES like Christ in order to preach the gospel.
<font color=red>Outside the ESSENCE of the gospel,
there are OTHER features that reflect OUR HISTORY and CONSENSUS interpretations of the LARGER biblical message.</font>

Pople like Rubel and some at Rochester repeat the MANTRA and using words like sectarian, legalistic, patternists, traditionalists and other RACA words, like Goebbels, know that if you tell a lie often enough people will believe it. Like Hitler if you tell it in a GREAT DEMONSTRATION intended to prove to people that they are "losers" already and need to JOIN EARLY. The CORE issue of the eternal troublerrs in Zion is the Musical Worship Team leading to Instrumental Music. SAVED FROM WRATH means to be SAVED FROM ORGE meaning ORGY which is exactly what the JUBILATORS are promoting. Salvation is FROM the Crooked Generation meaning the SKOLION SINGERS wich was the new wineskin NON-Israelites who ruled Jerusalem.

Rubel Shelly: seems to agree with those of whom he writes:<font color=red>They had to strain the story of Jesus through philosophical sieves. They had to create and clarify special terms. They made entrance into their circles a matter of "enlightenment" as reflected in peculiar vocabulary and interpretations.

In the meanwhile, the CORE gospel has survived two millennia now in its NARRATIVE FORM of telling the big story through collections of little ones about Jesus.</font>

http://www.piney.com/RSJohn2112.html

Rochester are at the WWDJ stage: Have you utterly repudiated the Bible and the universal Biblical and church History belief that it is the TEXTBOOK for our learning and as authority in FAITH AND PRACTICE? Rubel is not a believer in the Biblical or classical sense of the word because, one suspects, he uses it as a PATTERN BOOK after all rather as something to be READ and REHEARSED as we REST from the neo-pagan "worship" rituals of watching disturbed people CLAIMING to be mediators using the POPULAR ARTS which defines HYPOCRITES and DEMAGOGUES.

If you could prove that the Bible is NOT capable of teaching and MOLDING people through edification or education, THEN you are still left with the fact that to ACCEPT PAY for pretending (meaning of hypocrite) to be a Christ-follower while denouncing those who have BIBLE and HISTORY universally in their favor is, according to Charles Spurgeion, so low ethically and morally that he struggled to find a word to define it.
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Ken, the church’s website lists interestingly different types of “worship and praise” as follows:
  • Cornerstone, 8:30 a.m.
  • Encounter, 10 a.m.
    These two assemblies both feature an invigorating blend of worship songs and styles and an engaging message from Patrick Mead.
  • Mosaic, 11:30 a.m.
    Experience the love of God in a non-traditional, celebratory worship and communion experience. This growing service is creating new traditions by communicating biblical truths in creative, compelling and contemporary ways.
New traditions? Communicating biblical truths in creative, compelling ways?

What is going on?

Donnie</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 28th, 2007, 4:40 pm #25

I have tried to log into Patrick Mead's blog with no luck. I will e-mail him and tell him that I have downloaded his three sermons on "God and Instruments of Worship" in three parts. If I could get a printed version I could dialog with him sooner.

In addition, a fourth sermon is "Acapella from a Postmodern Perspective."

Now, God never had anything to do with Instruments of Worship! What Patrick missed as did all preachers is that God had abandoned the nation to "worship the starry host" because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. When the elders fired God and hired a senior minister God warned that they were beyond redemption (the old Samuel story we also missed out on while the girlings were outing themselves too much. The national sacrificial system was not COMMANDED but IMPOSED because they were being told how to worship just like the Canaanites, Egyptians and Babylonians.

Anyone who can speak of "postmodern perspective" is not reading off the word but "beyond the sacred page" and is probably being handled by a member of the NACC such as David Faust as the latest morning glory.

Patrick is spread all over the internet and I am sure that he is preaching the instrumental positon. I will do a rebuttal pretending that Patrick is being USED by a NACC agent or one of the TOTALLY-GONE-EFFEMINATE few which have been seduced to use instruments.

They list all of the PSALLO Greek texts to identify PLUCKING but even then psallo just means pluck and it might be speaking of the hairs of a younger boy "youth minister." In ALL of the passages they LUST to use it is always the universal association between religious music, sexuality and homosexuality--sure even in the temple at times. Even the code word Acapella is a CODE WORD for A cappella meaning the castrated singers USED in the Sistine Chapel where instruments were not permitted and the universal--beginning with the Levites--FALSETTO just didn't hack it when the Pope heard the castrated "musical worship team" singing a new form of harmony.

Patrick also preaches "Make a Joyful Noise!." Well, that is exactly what it was: God never called it music. In fact the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness OUTLAWED making "vocal or instrument rejoicing sounds." That was reserved for signals and the synagogue was a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and no preaching or music was allowed when The Spirit OF Christ is being the teacher when the elders "teach that which has been revealed."

If any one has heard these sermons and tell us what Patrick is teaching it would speed up the review process. I would not expect Patrick to come out in the open.

Ken Sublett
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 29th, 2007, 2:40 am #26

Hello Church of Christ Members,

I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.

"Theologians Under Hitler" Event
Nov. 17, 2005

(See this article first for a summary - http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _dec05.asp)

What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.

Black History Month Controversy
Feb. 15, 2006

(Please check http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... dents.html for information as the speech took place in Rochester College's Assembly and was not covered by the media)

After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the Snopes.com page provided enough evidence even without the blog.

"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006

(Please check our blog for 1) the post containing the actual text by Dr. Barton here: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... hield.html and 2) the response to his article on the blog: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... s-and.html)

In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.

"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006

In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.

In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.

In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.

Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.
Summary of Patrick Mead: God and Instrumental Worship # 1: we listened to sermon #1 but we COULD have made it up from the NACC handouts and those USED by them to steal some church houses of widows.

Speaking style consistent with the Music Moveons. Evident that Patrick is reading off the Nacc Play book and therefore does not know nor quote either the context or the story line. Patrick is PROMOTING the same "worship of the starry host" (Acts 7 etc) to which God ABANDONED the nation BECAUSE of Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai.

There is no reason to expect either Patrick or those being led astray to know what really happened in the Old Testament. For that reason, all of His proof texts promote that which The Spirit OF Christ in all of the prophets radically condemned. We wonder why no one uses the prophets to promote Instrumental Worship by God's DIRECT COMMAND.

Some of the examples speak of the women who went in procession singing and playing instruments around the Temple. The words for SING and PLAY prove that with all NATIONAL temples, it would be plagued by prostitutes and Sodomites which is the mark of all Priestcraft.

Furthermore, all of the proof texts Patrick's handlers use PROVE that those who plucked the harp strings were grooming younger males whose hairs had been plucked for the act of pedarasty. There is no missing the point that the tiny few churches led by bonded buddies have turned the "school of the Bible" into a totally effeminate ritual. Not surprising since John identifies the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) who USES the "lusted after fruits" as speakers with a funnee style, singers and instrument players whom John identified as SORCERERS who Had deceived the whole world.

These "lusted after fruits" in Revelation are the same "basket of summer FRUITS" in Amos who defines the singers and musicians as still worshiping the starry hosts. In the process the were STARVING the people for lack of the Word and they WOULD go into captivity. Sounds like Rochester has gone all the way with lots of girlish giggles in the background. These are identified as DOGS (wolves Acts 20) or catamites identified by their singing style. Paul said that BECAUSE of the DOGS outside, worship must be IN the spirit as OPPOSED to IN the flesh. In John 4 Jesus identified the silent spirit as the ONLY place God will seek us. No! God does not like NOISE and any singer or musician or "funee" speaker who went into the Holy Place would be EXECUTED by his brethren.

Here are some of the USUAL prooftexts found in handouts by the NACC as handlers and defined by men like Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Mark Henderson, Milton Jones etal. We have reviewed ALL of the major documents all from the NACC and I can assure you that they lie about each and every Bible passage and historical comments. That is what means TAKING YOU CAPTIVE.

<font color=blue>Psalm 90 woman and man responsive singing</font>

Standared Fare: <font color=blue>Sunday Morning will be A CAPELLA</font>

Proof Texts:

<font color=blue>Genesis 4 when the Jubal family used musical instruments.

SOMETHING wrong with Cain.
Numbers 10 used to call assembly together
Josh 6:4 commands in battle
Gen 31: Laban entertainment
1 Kings show honor to the king
1 Sam 16:23
Psa 150 instruments, God said DO THIS. Not just a suggestion but a DIRECT COMMAND

Make a joyful noise before the Lord

Exodus 15:20-21, Miriam Leads the women OUT to escape,
Ark of the Covenant, rejoiced and danced naked
Psalms 33:2; Psalm 43: Psalm 68:25

Church of Christ traditionally NOT used instruments. Use with Video, second and third services.
Conviction in churches of Christ.

Psalm 68:5 singers after musicians maidens playing tambourines. Funny? Offended. Laugh and PLAY and sing
Psalm 98:6 harp, shout for joy before the Lord.
2 Chronicles 29:25-28 Direct Command of the Lord, david, gad commanded by the LORD, through prophets
1 Chronicles 16:4-6 Levites Ark of the Lord, Asaph "Four instruments" done in the temple. COMMANDEDS
1 Chronicles 25: singers, pagentry. God loved Art. Mocks those who bought church took out stained glass windows,

God Ordained the temple, God TOLD THEM to add music, dance,
Made replacement Hezekiah, cried.

2 Chron 29.27-28
  • singing began, whole ASSEMBLY bowed and worshipped, until BURNT offering
    Lyre (no sound board), Harp (hollow), 10 string harp zither dulcimer, Shopfar (ram's horn, bleat),
    Long Horn war secular worship
    David made sure that instruments be used in worship. God liked the NOISE. Mountains and rivers praise Him.
    Closer to god in a NOISY place.
    [made list of instruments]
What happened to the instruments: God does not CHANGE. Doctrines are fulfilled and ceased.
Put in animals under the law. Blood and gore and smell: Never LIKED it.
When Jesus died He was the sacrificed because work DONE. Not a new law.
  • Marriage, ceased.
    Food laws changed.
    No more Sabbath regulations.
Did He change His mind on music?: startling how little used in worship. Used by God in HEAVEN.

WHY IS DIFFERENCE? INSTRUMENTS began to disappear when temple ended.
  • Bad guys stripped off instruments.
    Hang harps on willows, wind blows continued to make music.
People HAD to worship without a TEMPLE Worshipped God with what they HAD.
  • People gathered together is called SYNAGOGUE.
    Not ONE ASPECT OF SYNAGOGUE approved by GOD!
    God accepted because that is what they HAD.
The CHANGE in music not mandated by God but by what they had. No instruments, expensive, hard to maintain.
Jesus sang and went out: not because they hated harps. They sang only witrhout instruments because that is what they HAD to offer God and He accepted it.

June 30 instrumental worship on Saturday.</font>

We will address some of these but Patrick has poured out HONEY BUCKETS of stuff making raw assertions and does not intend to tell the whole story. Therefore, it takes a lot of WORK to turn Lye Soap into 99 44/100 percent pure truth. If you know anyone at Rochester let them chime in and if I am mistaken by Patrick he WILL give an answer for deliberately sowing discord. If not we will speak for him. His members want to know why this is happening.

It SHOULD be enough to grasp that the Monarchy was God's ABANDONMENT to worship the starry host. So that their Temple was built by Hiram the Masonic Architect and all of the ARTSY stuff is what we and Ezekiel 8 call IDOLS because it was BY REQUEST a temple for Sabazianism which is the same end-time Dionysus NEW WINESKIN by NEW WINESKINNERS treading out the grapes.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 30th, 2007, 8:22 pm #27

Hello Church of Christ Members,

I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.

"Theologians Under Hitler" Event
Nov. 17, 2005

(See this article first for a summary - http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _dec05.asp)

What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.

Black History Month Controversy
Feb. 15, 2006

(Please check http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... dents.html for information as the speech took place in Rochester College's Assembly and was not covered by the media)

After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the Snopes.com page provided enough evidence even without the blog.

"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006

(Please check our blog for 1) the post containing the actual text by Dr. Barton here: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... hield.html and 2) the response to his article on the blog: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... s-and.html)

In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.

"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006

In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.

In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.

In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.

Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.
I will post this review on the internet and it will be changed and improved as I have editing time.

http://www.piney.com/Patrick.Mead.html

You are free to do a rebuttal or question me directly on e-mail. The review is in images and may be slow to load but lets me keep the formatting:




Before looking at Patrick's FLOOD of "proofs" none of which related to the congregational meetings of the "civilians" in the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness where vocal and instrumental rejoicing was OUTLAWED, it is important to see that Jesus claimed to have HIDDEN the truth from anyone who lifts prooftexts out of context and CANNOT see the massive and radical condemnation of instrumental noises: this is always the MARK of people trying to silence the Word of God. If you listen to the new musical "worship services" it is clear that when Jesus is replaced by women or the effeminate it is a mark of falling into the promised delusions.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on June 4th, 2008, 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 30th, 2007, 9:00 pm #28

Summary of Patrick Mead: God and Instrumental Worship # 1: we listened to sermon #1 but we COULD have made it up from the NACC handouts and those USED by them to steal some church houses of widows.

Speaking style consistent with the Music Moveons. Evident that Patrick is reading off the Nacc Play book and therefore does not know nor quote either the context or the story line. Patrick is PROMOTING the same "worship of the starry host" (Acts 7 etc) to which God ABANDONED the nation BECAUSE of Musical Idolatry at Mount Sinai.

There is no reason to expect either Patrick or those being led astray to know what really happened in the Old Testament. For that reason, all of His proof texts promote that which The Spirit OF Christ in all of the prophets radically condemned. We wonder why no one uses the prophets to promote Instrumental Worship by God's DIRECT COMMAND.

Some of the examples speak of the women who went in procession singing and playing instruments around the Temple. The words for SING and PLAY prove that with all NATIONAL temples, it would be plagued by prostitutes and Sodomites which is the mark of all Priestcraft.

Furthermore, all of the proof texts Patrick's handlers use PROVE that those who plucked the harp strings were grooming younger males whose hairs had been plucked for the act of pedarasty. There is no missing the point that the tiny few churches led by bonded buddies have turned the "school of the Bible" into a totally effeminate ritual. Not surprising since John identifies the Mother of Harlots (Rev 17) who USES the "lusted after fruits" as speakers with a funnee style, singers and instrument players whom John identified as SORCERERS who Had deceived the whole world.

These "lusted after fruits" in Revelation are the same "basket of summer FRUITS" in Amos who defines the singers and musicians as still worshiping the starry hosts. In the process the were STARVING the people for lack of the Word and they WOULD go into captivity. Sounds like Rochester has gone all the way with lots of girlish giggles in the background. These are identified as DOGS (wolves Acts 20) or catamites identified by their singing style. Paul said that BECAUSE of the DOGS outside, worship must be IN the spirit as OPPOSED to IN the flesh. In John 4 Jesus identified the silent spirit as the ONLY place God will seek us. No! God does not like NOISE and any singer or musician or "funee" speaker who went into the Holy Place would be EXECUTED by his brethren.

Here are some of the USUAL prooftexts found in handouts by the NACC as handlers and defined by men like Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Mark Henderson, Milton Jones etal. We have reviewed ALL of the major documents all from the NACC and I can assure you that they lie about each and every Bible passage and historical comments. That is what means TAKING YOU CAPTIVE.

<font color=blue>Psalm 90 woman and man responsive singing</font>

Standared Fare: <font color=blue>Sunday Morning will be A CAPELLA</font>

Proof Texts:

<font color=blue>Genesis 4 when the Jubal family used musical instruments.

SOMETHING wrong with Cain.
Numbers 10 used to call assembly together
Josh 6:4 commands in battle
Gen 31: Laban entertainment
1 Kings show honor to the king
1 Sam 16:23
Psa 150 instruments, God said DO THIS. Not just a suggestion but a DIRECT COMMAND

Make a joyful noise before the Lord

Exodus 15:20-21, Miriam Leads the women OUT to escape,
Ark of the Covenant, rejoiced and danced naked
Psalms 33:2; Psalm 43: Psalm 68:25

Church of Christ traditionally NOT used instruments. Use with Video, second and third services.
Conviction in churches of Christ.

Psalm 68:5 singers after musicians maidens playing tambourines. Funny? Offended. Laugh and PLAY and sing
Psalm 98:6 harp, shout for joy before the Lord.
2 Chronicles 29:25-28 Direct Command of the Lord, david, gad commanded by the LORD, through prophets
1 Chronicles 16:4-6 Levites Ark of the Lord, Asaph "Four instruments" done in the temple. COMMANDEDS
1 Chronicles 25: singers, pagentry. God loved Art. Mocks those who bought church took out stained glass windows,

God Ordained the temple, God TOLD THEM to add music, dance,
Made replacement Hezekiah, cried.

2 Chron 29.27-28
  • singing began, whole ASSEMBLY bowed and worshipped, until BURNT offering
    Lyre (no sound board), Harp (hollow), 10 string harp zither dulcimer, Shopfar (ram's horn, bleat),
    Long Horn war secular worship
    David made sure that instruments be used in worship. God liked the NOISE. Mountains and rivers praise Him.
    Closer to god in a NOISY place.
    [made list of instruments]
What happened to the instruments: God does not CHANGE. Doctrines are fulfilled and ceased.
Put in animals under the law. Blood and gore and smell: Never LIKED it.
When Jesus died He was the sacrificed because work DONE. Not a new law.
  • Marriage, ceased.
    Food laws changed.
    No more Sabbath regulations.
Did He change His mind on music?: startling how little used in worship. Used by God in HEAVEN.

WHY IS DIFFERENCE? INSTRUMENTS began to disappear when temple ended.
  • Bad guys stripped off instruments.
    Hang harps on willows, wind blows continued to make music.
People HAD to worship without a TEMPLE Worshipped God with what they HAD.
  • People gathered together is called SYNAGOGUE.
    Not ONE ASPECT OF SYNAGOGUE approved by GOD!
    God accepted because that is what they HAD.
The CHANGE in music not mandated by God but by what they had. No instruments, expensive, hard to maintain.
Jesus sang and went out: not because they hated harps. They sang only witrhout instruments because that is what they HAD to offer God and He accepted it.

June 30 instrumental worship on Saturday.</font>

We will address some of these but Patrick has poured out HONEY BUCKETS of stuff making raw assertions and does not intend to tell the whole story. Therefore, it takes a lot of WORK to turn Lye Soap into 99 44/100 percent pure truth. If you know anyone at Rochester let them chime in and if I am mistaken by Patrick he WILL give an answer for deliberately sowing discord. If not we will speak for him. His members want to know why this is happening.

It SHOULD be enough to grasp that the Monarchy was God's ABANDONMENT to worship the starry host. So that their Temple was built by Hiram the Masonic Architect and all of the ARTSY stuff is what we and Ezekiel 8 call IDOLS because it was BY REQUEST a temple for Sabazianism which is the same end-time Dionysus NEW WINESKIN by NEW WINESKINNERS treading out the grapes.
Patrick Mead does the Change Agent circuit so I thought this thread was interesting.

<font size=2 face=times new roman>
<a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/177121/t ... website</a" target="_new">http://www.network54.com/Forum/177121/t ... website</a>...
</font>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on June 6th, 2008, 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 31st, 2007, 3:22 pm #29

Hello Church of Christ Members,

I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.

"Theologians Under Hitler" Event
Nov. 17, 2005

(See this article first for a summary - http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _dec05.asp)

What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.

Black History Month Controversy
Feb. 15, 2006

(Please check http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... dents.html for information as the speech took place in Rochester College's Assembly and was not covered by the media)

After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the Snopes.com page provided enough evidence even without the blog.

"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006

(Please check our blog for 1) the post containing the actual text by Dr. Barton here: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... hield.html and 2) the response to his article on the blog: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... s-and.html)

In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.

"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006

In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.

In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.

In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.

Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.
This is the link to the Crooked Generation treated by Jesus as a RACE so perverted and truth hating that He refused to speak to them other than through parables. If the false teachers cannot understand that all of the Bible POINTS to something outside of it they will miss the fact that the crooked race or the race of vipers are the people who "sing while getting drunk on wine." They are well documented in the literature which not even the best Greek scholar reads because they don't look where Paul and others point. This is a collection of comments only:

http://www.piney.com/Acts.2.Crooked.html

Contrary to the claim all of those ignoring all of the Word of God and trying to IMPOSE what was the curse of God on Israel because of musical idolatry. And they all read off the PAGES of the NACC all of which deliberately twist all of the Bible and historical scholars. At the same time they are utterly silent about the prophets who UNIQUELY spoke by the Spirit OF Christ who utterly condemn instruments a identify the SUPPLIER as Lucifer or Satan. So, no good to label truth speakers as of the Devil. Didn't the Jewish legalistic sectarians do that to Jesus who spoke VOLUMES condemning musical performers. Here is a link to the Burgess material which identifies the PSALLO word as pointing to perverts:

http://www.piney.com/Music.Burgess.98.html

Continuing to review Patrick's errors from the Old Testament but first to MARK music and the promise of Jesus that He would utterly take away the ability to understand the Word. Again, may be a slow load.




Jesus is going to point to Isaiah and Ezekiel--guided by the Spirit OF Christ--to tell God's FULLER story and identify the Scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites by pointing out "rhetoricians, singers and instrument players." Not surprising, John almost at the end of the Bible identifies them as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on June 4th, 2008, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

January 2nd, 2008, 6:42 pm #30

Hello Church of Christ Members,

I am a student currently enrolled in Rochester College in Rochester Hills, Michigan, and I came across this site yesterday while looking for information on Rubel Shelly and the "Emergent Church." Needless to say, I was shocked to see just how famous (or infamous) Rubel Shelly is within many of the Churches of Christ - and even more shocked just how much information the college has kept from students about his background and opinions. He was presented to the majority of students with great enthusiasm as a remarkable theological leader. Since the arrival of Rubel Shelly, Rochester College has been moving in a startlingly controversial direction, however. The following is my account of the happenings at Rochester College pertaining to Rochester's new change of direction. I apologize for the length of this report, but I feel it is necessary to give all relevant details in order to aaccurately portray the troubling events that have took place at Rochester College recently.

"Theologians Under Hitler" Event
Nov. 17, 2005

(See this article first for a summary - http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _dec05.asp)

What this article doesn't say is that the comments recorded by the media at the event, the Detroit Free Press, included only the more moderate quotes from Dr. Shelly. Ingnatius Insight offers a decent review of the event, although they were limited to writing off of what the Detroit Free Press chose to report. I, on the other hand, had the opportunity to attend the event myself, and I got the "uncensored" version of Shelly's comments. One of the documentary's main driving points was the issue of "Could it (Holocaust) happen again?" Several students responded in the affirmative to Shelly's recorded comments, but Shelly took it a step further. When students chose to ask the question "Could it happen again?" directly to the panel of Rochester professors, Shelly quickly spoke up. He replied that it indeed has happened again - with Hurricane Katrina. Enough said.

Black History Month Controversy
Feb. 15, 2006

(Please check http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... dents.html for information as the speech took place in Rochester College's Assembly and was not covered by the media)

After hearing the speech, I was skeptical about some of its claims that were supposedly "truth." I did some research and discovered that not only was the speaker's "A World Without Black People" section of his Black History Month speech riddled with historical errors - including some outright lies - it was also plagiarized from an anonymous internet e-mail chainletter! By looking at http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp I had discovered that story had been floating around for years in chainletter circles and was decisively debunked by Snope's myth busters team. The speaker, however, read it as if it was his own material (he had copy-and-pasted into his speech text) and did not give credit to its author nor did he say that it was someone else's material. In light of this, I joined with other Rochester students who were as stunned as I was that such intellectually dishonest and pilfered material was presented as fact to our asssembly. Together, we wrote an article to one of Rochester College's Deans, Candace Cain. Despite all the evidence we found, however, the Rochester College Administration dodged the accusations, refusing to address any of the blatantly false claims and plagiarized nature of the "speech." Due to the hostile environment at the school, I and Aquinas, the first student I told about my findings, decided to take a stance of anonymity to protect our identities. We did not ask for fame, credit, or recognition obviously, but instead requested that the administration address the clear plagiarism and violation of the college's own rules in front of the student body; the Snopes.com page provided enough evidence even without the blog.

"The Shield" Rochester College Newspaper Article by Dr. John Barton
April-May 2006

(Please check our blog for 1) the post containing the actual text by Dr. Barton here: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... hield.html and 2) the response to his article on the blog: http://questionthecollege.blogspot.com/ ... s-and.html)

In the May Edition of The Shield, Rochester College's campus newspaper, Dr. John Barton Barton - apparently a cohort of Rubel Shelly in the "Wineskins" progressive (a.k.a. liberal) Church of Christ group - wrote an article dealing with the controversial Black History Month speech, even paying attention to the plagiarized section. However, Dr. Barton neither mentions the http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp URL that proves the "A World Without Black People" section of the speech was plagiarized, nor he does he state that the speech has PROVEN lies and inaccuracies. Instead, he says "Inaccuracies, if indeed present, are unfortunate and I would suggest they need to be investigated before the speech is used again in a public venue." By ignoring valid and verifiable third-party evidence, Dr. Barton robs Rochester College students of the opportunity to discover for themselves whether or not the speech was plagiarized and critically examine the "facts" presented in it. Rochester College often claims to its students that critical thinking is of the highest value to them, but the Black History Month incident in particular shows that critical thinking is only valued when it AGREES WITH THEM.

"Emerging Faith" Presentation Series in Rochester College Assembly
Oct. 2006 and (upcoming) Nov. 2006

In a series of assembly presentations featuring Dr. Keith Huey, Dr. Rubel Shelly, and Chris Lindsey on the days of October 17, 24, and 31, the students of Rochester College have received lessons on the "Emergent Church" movement. Supposedly covering its major features, goals, and leaders, the speakers were given the nearly the entire assembly time to present the Emergent Church" Once again, I began to research the Emergent Church to see if what I was being told in assembly matched with reality. Out of three, Dr. Huey presented the most honest and informative explanation of the Emergent Church. Dr. Shelly, on the other hand, gave what another student involved with the QuestionTheCollege blog said was "A speech that could have been given in any Christian congregation" while supposedly being an specific lesson on the Emergent Church. Shelly noted nothing of the Emergent Church's postmodernist focus and its syncretic attitudes.

In addition, Dr. Huey mentioned in his presentation that the Emergent Church's defining statement that we "do not have a monopoly on truth." Dr. Shelly made no mention of this statement, much less criticized it. What happened to Jesus's claim that "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)!? Jesus does not only HAVE a monopoly on truth, He IS the monopoly on truth. Shelly presented an appealing traditional message of "practice what you preach" without giving students actual information that explains why the Emergent Church is different from traditional churches.

In the third installment of the "Emerging Faith" series, Chris Lindsey gave a worship-oriented service fashioned after the Emergent Church. In it, Lindsey expressed his frustration at having difficultly getting close to God by reading the Bible. Giving the analogy of how a student memorizing the statistics of his favorite baseball player does cannot actually "know" that player because of his study of the player's athletic performance, Lindsey said that we cannot necessarily "know" God by reading the Bible. I find this analogy flawed to the extreme. As 2 Timothy 3:16 says "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work", we learn about God by reading His Word. Baseball statistics do not contain the personal thoughts and feelings, only athletic performance. The Bible IS the very Word of God - it is a message from God Himself to mankind.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Note: My main intention in writing this (as well as the intentions of other Rochester student writers will be joining in this endeavor as well) to simply "let the truth be known" about what's going on at Rochester College. Rochester College portrays itself as a Bible-believing, conservative Christian institution, but it has shown itself to be anything but that. I hope that you will pass this information on to your friends and church members - it's time donors and visitors see past the facade Rochester College is putting on to attract and maintain students and funds.

Final Note: This is only the beginning of the accounts of troubling incidents at Rochester College. I and other students will write more as time permits.



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