Did They Need It?

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 5th, 2013, 7:36 pm #11

Ken, that's good to know info. However, I was addressing "B".
B asked me to take care of his REALLY, REALLY light work. Besides, since I have kept my 83 old brain active by learning ANYTHING ever written, I just naturally want to know why it was that the Spirit OF (preposition) of Christ called your LEVITE SOOTHSAYING with instrument teams and warned about the LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES. And why SOOTHSAYERS can now get a DEGREE from your once-Christian college.

I hoped that would give you a teeny clue that the Bible records the good, the bad and the ugly. When your mentors claim that the Lying pen of the Scribes told them to IMPOSE instrumental praise (still trying to decode that term) planning to sow massive discord and DRIVE OUT about half of the owners so they could RESTOCK the heard, I never miss a chance to see whether it is REALLY true: when you fiddle with the Word and drum up rituals to pick the pockets of the butterflies, God just gives you a middle Lumpotomy and detaches the rational (spiritual) hemisphere or does a hemisphere bypass.

I have collected a few parallels between Jude and Enoch: your task, if you chose to accept it, is to explain why there are so many parallels.

http://www.piney.com/MuJudeEnoch.html

Surely not ALL of those ancient scholars were wrong and old The-O-Lite is suddenly seeing visions and hearing "spirits."

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B
B

January 5th, 2013, 8:06 pm #12

Ken, that's good to know info. However, I was addressing "B".
Since this is an open board, surely Rocky wouldn't object to good-to-know info from Ken.
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Scripture
Scripture

January 5th, 2013, 8:54 pm #13

As I recall, the Bible does not ever state that the books from Genesis to Revelation constitute the WHOLE biblical canon. A bunch of MORTAL MEN decided what would be the canon many centuries ago. People must think those mortal men were infallible, just like the Catholics have the half-baked idea that the Pope is infallible. So perhaps men (like Rocky) are guilty of omitting the Book of Enoch from the canon. Surely Enoch was inspired, because he made a prophecy about God, which Jude included in his epistle. An inspired man like Jude would NOT have included something as important as a prophecy about God if that prophecy had not also been inspired.

Now since Rocky doesn't believe that Enoch was inspired, then perhaps Rocky in turn doesn't believe that Jude was inspired. Perhaps Rocky has torn out that section in Jude with Enoch's prophecy about God. Or worse, perhaps Rocky has ripped out Jude's epistle altogether from his Bible. BTW, didn't Dave (who also believes Enoch was a fluke) urge Rocky to rip Jude from his Bible?
This is really interesting.

Those of you who are more traditional leave an opening to expansion of scripture.

Those who want some change cling to the traditional texts.

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B
B

January 5th, 2013, 9:28 pm #14

Since the Bible does not tell us that THE complete canon consists of Genesis to Revelation, then we must face the possibility that other books are indeed inspired, but MAN decided to ignore them, based on his biases.
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Rocky
Rocky

January 5th, 2013, 10:23 pm #15

This is really interesting.

Those of you who are more traditional leave an opening to expansion of scripture.

Those who want some change cling to the traditional texts.
Scripture, some of the regulars at CM have been doing the same ole "song and dance" on the same ole issues for years. "B" is not a very good dancer but he is a gifted tree climber. I just run him out on a limb to see how far he will venture. Mostly, it is all in fun. I hope this helps.



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 6th, 2013, 12:41 am #16

Did Jesus have to supply wine for the wedding for the wedding to be a success? Was He fulfilling the desire to continue a tradition of having wine at the marriage celebration?
Which leads one to another thought.....considering the above dilemma and thought....would Jesus object to the tradition of instrumental music (compared to the tradition of voice only)? We don't need instruments to worship God (no more than they needed wine for a Marriage celebration), but the instruments would not preclude a meaningful worship to God (no more than wine would hinder a meainingful marriage celebration)......now would they???





HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!

=========================

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]David Fields, let's be honest and unashamed: claim [ ]the message you authored.[/color]
The story is told many times in the Bible but people don't read very well. The Story is told by Paul in Romans 1 which could be the Enoch story or the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. In all of these accounts the use of music is attributed to Satan--Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden or the story of Lucifer "cast as profane (that musical praise word) out of heaven.

The problem is that people determined to remove the Prophets and Apostles by Christ have no trouble taking God's abandonment to worship the starry host (missed Acts 7) and say that "a" spirit told them that this was God's commandment for them to impose musical worship teams with or without "machines for doing hard work." It is certain that they use Miriam as the pattern for a musical worship minister but Miriam (bitter waters) was a SOOTHSAYER. The story of Miriam is inspired but like much of the Old Testament it is to TELL US WHAT NOT TO DO.

Because God sends strong delusions to those who tamper with the word "as it is written for our learning" and probably COMMANDS them to impose what the Spirit of Christ attributes to Lucifer.

Several "church fathers" honor the Book of Enoch at least as explaining what is recorded in the Bible but not understood.

Recognitions of Clement Book IV Entire Book

http://www.piney.com/FathRecClemBIV.html

Chapter XII.-Translation of Enoch.

"But that He might show that these things were done on account of the ungrateful, He translated to immortality a certain one of the first race of men,
because He saw that he was not unmindful of His grace, and because he hoped to call on the name of God; while the rest, who were so ungrateful that they could not be amended and corrected even by labours and tribulations, were condemned to a terrible death.

Yet amongst them also He found a certain one, who was righteous with his house, whom He preserved, having enjoined him to build an ark, in which he and those who were commanded to go with him might escape, when all things should be destroyed by a deluge: in order that, the wicked being cut off by the overflow of waters, the world might receive a purification; and he who had been preserved for the continuance of the race, being purified by water, might anew repair the world.

Chapter XIII.-Origin of Idolatry.

"But when all these things were done, men turned again to impiety; and on this account a law was given by God to instruct them in the manner of living.

But in process of time, the worship of God and righteousness were corrupted by the unbelieving and the wicked, as we shall show more fully by and by.

Moreover, perverse and erratic religions were introduced, to which the greater part of men gave themselves up, by occasion of holidays and solemnities, instituting drinkings and banquets,

following pipes, and flutes, and harps, and diverse kinds of musical instruments, and indulging themselves in all kinds of drunkenness and luxury.

Hence every kind of error took rise; hence they invented groves and altars, fillets and victims, and after drunkenness they were agitated as if with mad emotions.

By this means power was given to the demons to enter into minds of this sort, so that they seemed to lead insane dances and to rave like Bacchanalians; hence were invented the gnashing of teeth, and bellowing from the depth of their bowels; hence a terrible countenance and a fierce aspect in men, so that he whom drunkenness had subverted and a demon had instigated,

was believed by the deceived and the erring to be filled with the Deity.


Especially applied to the women leaders they claim that they are the PROPHETS and the command is to USE them. In all recorded the women--and effeminate males--are called by Paul as being QUITE MADE. Anyone who thinks their composition REPLACING what Scripture has commanded and has magical POWER are indeed MANIAS.

The people following the IDENTICAL PATTERN say that musical worship teams" can lead you into the presence of God. They think a "holy spirit person" is their "vain imagination."

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

Those who claim to lead you into WORSHIP or the presence of God when there is ONE MEDIATOR are also guilty of despising the Word which Christ in Jeremiah 23 calls blaspheming the holy spirit of Christ. That's why they WILL NOT ever change because it is no longer in their interest.
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B
B

January 6th, 2013, 1:07 am #17

Scripture, some of the regulars at CM have been doing the same ole "song and dance" on the same ole issues for years. "B" is not a very good dancer but he is a gifted tree climber. I just run him out on a limb to see how far he will venture. Mostly, it is all in fun. I hope this helps.


We'd all like to know exactly when Rocky ripped Jude from his Bible, because he thinks that since Jude quotes the allededly uninspired Enoch, then Jude must also be uninspired.

Instead of trying to imitate Fred Astaire, Rocky must be trying to climb that tree with B, which is all in "fun."
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 6th, 2013, 1:29 am #18

I can say with some certainty that I have collected most of the historical mentions of music beginning with clay tablets. The stories were very ancient and the clay tablets might have been up to 2,000 years old when Moses was born.

I keep looking for JUST ONE Biblical or other literary mention of God being ticked or honored by religious musicians. Indeed from the serpent--a musical enchanter--in the garden of Eden onward people sing their own song and play instruments (set voice TO the tune of a string) SPECIFICIALLY to silence the prophets from the foundation of the world who presented God as just the opposite of the ones worshipped by Israel and a church near you in the morning.

Hey! don't think we are stupid: if you sing YOUR songs rather than "that which is written for our learning" you have EVERY INTENTION of making certain that the elders CANNOT teach"that which has been taught."

The only COMMANDED WORSHIP concept from the Church of Christ in the wilderness onward was to GIVE ATTENDANCE to the public reading of the Word. Reading with certain accent marks was to guarantee that no one could add a jot or tittle out of their own minds. If we are forced to listen to the words of the TEAMS performing to rehearsed perfection they make it impossible to worship anyone but those who are sucking up all of our attention.

After the Jews were setteled, the emphasis came more and more to be on the assembly of the people to study, learn, or investigate (midrash) the Torah. A Beit Midrash was most often attached to the synagogue, and the functions of both tended to overlap. Eventually, the Beit Midrash came to be viewed as more sacred than the rest of the synagogue.

The continuing recognition of the synagogue as a house of study is seen in the fact that many Jews today prefer the Yiddish term shul over the term synagogue to identify their place of meeting. Shul literally means school and probably is related to the Latin schola, from which we get the words scholar and scholastic.


Hey, we disciples know that disciples are STUDENTS as the ONLY commanded worship concept. And students OF Christ use the teachings of Christ in the Prophets and apostles (commanded) as the ONLY resource. No human has anything of value to say and therefore Christ in Isaiah 58 outlawed SPEAKING OUR OWN WORDS. The promotion of performing artists INTENDS to make certain that the LAMBS needing feeding evolve into GOATS needing entertaining. That's the Purpose Driven purpose drivers.

If you can't grasp that then rejoice with the MANY who are called but not chosen.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 6th, 2013, 3:37 am #19

The story is told many times in the Bible but people don't read very well. The Story is told by Paul in Romans 1 which could be the Enoch story or the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. In all of these accounts the use of music is attributed to Satan--Lucifer the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden or the story of Lucifer "cast as profane (that musical praise word) out of heaven.

The problem is that people determined to remove the Prophets and Apostles by Christ have no trouble taking God's abandonment to worship the starry host (missed Acts 7) and say that "a" spirit told them that this was God's commandment for them to impose musical worship teams with or without "machines for doing hard work." It is certain that they use Miriam as the pattern for a musical worship minister but Miriam (bitter waters) was a SOOTHSAYER. The story of Miriam is inspired but like much of the Old Testament it is to TELL US WHAT NOT TO DO.

Because God sends strong delusions to those who tamper with the word "as it is written for our learning" and probably COMMANDS them to impose what the Spirit of Christ attributes to Lucifer.

Several "church fathers" honor the Book of Enoch at least as explaining what is recorded in the Bible but not understood.

Recognitions of Clement Book IV Entire Book

http://www.piney.com/FathRecClemBIV.html

Chapter XII.-Translation of Enoch.

"But that He might show that these things were done on account of the ungrateful, He translated to immortality a certain one of the first race of men,
because He saw that he was not unmindful of His grace, and because he hoped to call on the name of God; while the rest, who were so ungrateful that they could not be amended and corrected even by labours and tribulations, were condemned to a terrible death.

Yet amongst them also He found a certain one, who was righteous with his house, whom He preserved, having enjoined him to build an ark, in which he and those who were commanded to go with him might escape, when all things should be destroyed by a deluge: in order that, the wicked being cut off by the overflow of waters, the world might receive a purification; and he who had been preserved for the continuance of the race, being purified by water, might anew repair the world.

Chapter XIII.-Origin of Idolatry.

"But when all these things were done, men turned again to impiety; and on this account a law was given by God to instruct them in the manner of living.

But in process of time, the worship of God and righteousness were corrupted by the unbelieving and the wicked, as we shall show more fully by and by.

Moreover, perverse and erratic religions were introduced, to which the greater part of men gave themselves up, by occasion of holidays and solemnities, instituting drinkings and banquets,

following pipes, and flutes, and harps, and diverse kinds of musical instruments, and indulging themselves in all kinds of drunkenness and luxury.

Hence every kind of error took rise; hence they invented groves and altars, fillets and victims, and after drunkenness they were agitated as if with mad emotions.

By this means power was given to the demons to enter into minds of this sort, so that they seemed to lead insane dances and to rave like Bacchanalians; hence were invented the gnashing of teeth, and bellowing from the depth of their bowels; hence a terrible countenance and a fierce aspect in men, so that he whom drunkenness had subverted and a demon had instigated,

was believed by the deceived and the erring to be filled with the Deity.


Especially applied to the women leaders they claim that they are the PROPHETS and the command is to USE them. In all recorded the women--and effeminate males--are called by Paul as being QUITE MADE. Anyone who thinks their composition REPLACING what Scripture has commanded and has magical POWER are indeed MANIAS.

The people following the IDENTICAL PATTERN say that musical worship teams" can lead you into the presence of God. They think a "holy spirit person" is their "vain imagination."

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

Those who claim to lead you into WORSHIP or the presence of God when there is ONE MEDIATOR are also guilty of despising the Word which Christ in Jeremiah 23 calls blaspheming the holy spirit of Christ. That's why they WILL NOT ever change because it is no longer in their interest.
Too bad, too sad: history knows no exception and the "worship pretenders" cannot even define the Assembly for which Jesus died. That's prophetical of Biblical proportions.

http://www.piney.com/BabSonsOfGod.html

As a result of the Nadab-Abihu prophetic type, the Day of Atonement was instituted and the Scapegoat was instituted: this was turning the sins over to the Devil or Azazel. The musical performers in Revelation 18 as sorcerers are also defined as scapegoats trying to redeem the institution. The goat was a cappella: isn't that wonderful? The word Anathema speaks of a person or object devoted to a religious institution to ADORN the house and worship. Such devoted objects and REAL PEOPLE could not be redeemed and must be burned.

1 Moreover Azazyel (Tubal-Cain etal.) taught men to make swords, knives, shields, breastplates, the fabrication of mirrors, and the workmanship of bracelets and ornaments, the use of paint, the beautifying of the eyebrows, the use of stones of every valuable and select kind, and all sorts of dyes, so that the world became altered.

In the Sons of The Gods:

(r) Genun (Tubal-Cain etal.) the Canaanite, son of Lamech the Blind, living in the Land of the Slime Pits,
was ruled by Azael from his earliest youth,
and invented all sorts of musical instruments.

When he played these, Azael entered into them too,
so that they gave forth seductive tunes entrancing the hearts of all listeners.


Genun would assemble companies of musicians,
who inflamed one another with music until their lust burned bright like fire,
and they lay together promiscuously.

He also brewed beer, gathered great crowds in taverns, gave them to drink,
and taught them to forge iron swords and spear-points, with which to do murder at random when they were drunk.


That is the ETERNAL pattern and that is why the Spirit OF Christ told you that Lucifer was the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden." Personified as the king of Babylon he would go into the PIT along with his harps and "cast alive" harpists. This ACTUAL burial has been excavated. The "cast alive harpists" are in the middle. They are described as being burned and consumed by maggots while still conscious.

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Annie Mouse
Annie Mouse

January 6th, 2013, 4:41 am #20

Did Jesus have to supply wine for the wedding for the wedding to be a success? Was He fulfilling the desire to continue a tradition of having wine at the marriage celebration?
Which leads one to another thought.....considering the above dilemma and thought....would Jesus object to the tradition of instrumental music (compared to the tradition of voice only)? We don't need instruments to worship God (no more than they needed wine for a Marriage celebration), but the instruments would not preclude a meaningful worship to God (no more than wine would hinder a meainingful marriage celebration)......now would they???





HAPPY NEW YEARS!!!

=========================

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]David Fields, let's be honest and unashamed: claim [ ]the message you authored.[/color]
B,
Since you believe that the men who translated the Word were fallible and since you believe God didn't direct these men to ably translate His Word for Him, then certainly you can add Enoch....and take out Mark, and put in your own thoughts.....whatever you want to do.

For me, I will take the 66 complete Word of God.

=============================

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]David Fields, be proud of your message -- claim it.[/color]

Last edited by madisonchurchofchrist on January 6th, 2013, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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