Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 7th, 2016, 3:02 pm #11

Dianne has asked the question about the modern role of preachers hired to effectively dominate an established congregation. We have posted some of the Biblical and historic opinions scattered throughout other threads.

History will show that all discord and inability of disciples to assemble together as "students" of the Word has always originated with what they call "located evangelists" or "located missionaries."

The problem arises from the engrained tradition of the definition of "church" and of "worship."

Universities holding Elder's meetings with non-elders doing the teaching and classes are held about negotiating a salary and comparative prices throughout the priesthood.

Even of men with supernatural power to confirm their message the first commission defined by Jesus was. Prophecy involved a tiny remnant still living in the land who had not "bowed go Baal."

Jesus nether preached the gospel of salvation to everyone but the Gospel OF the Kingdom or Church. That kingdom is within the little flock and you will never be able to count them and gloat over them. Nor will they come to religious observations because the kingdom and its king will not be there.


Matt. 10:6 But go rather to the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.
Matt. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Matt. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Matt. 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Matt. 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
Matt. 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
Matt. 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Matt. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matt. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


In looking for LOST SHEEP one does not attempt to CAMP OUT and Entertain Goats. Those OF the World or "earth born" are not enterested and however hard and legalistically you work at programs their conscience or spirit will never be holy or pure unless they "glady receive the Word and want to be baptized." That is the MARK which also condemns the world or those who are not suitable for baptism such as those baptized with wind (spirit) and fire.

I listened to a bit of a TV sermon this morning which is typical of men who have a right to think that NOT APT elders hired him to go beyond the direct command to PREACH the Word by READING the Word (Regulative principle) for Comfort and Doctrine. A person whom the elders HIRE to feed the flock is THE meaning of a HIRELING. Those who "see godliness as a means of financial gain" have no option: Jude says that they are Purpose Driven.

Zech. 11:10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zech. 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.
Zech. 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
Zech. 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Zech. 11:14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Zech. 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.


Judas was the Goat Bishop and His BAG was always attached to a flute case. The prophecy was that Judas would attempt to alarm or triump over Jesus (vocal or instrumental noise) but Jesus did not remain dead. When Jesus fed Judas the SOP (the Psallo meaning) the devil came into Judas and he hung himself and twisted in the wind until his guts drop out. Musical people attempting to SILENCE Jesus will not get off as easy.

Here are the INSTRUMENTS of the FOOLISH SHEPHERD ignoring Paul's warning to let a WOLF (Apollon) elder buy influence.



<font face="arial" size="4">Jacob cursed the Levites and warned not to enter into the Levite covenant nor to attend their synagogues. They should wait for SHILOH or REST from any and all religious observations FOR SALE.

Zech. 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
</font>
I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. John 10:11
Paul commanded Timothy to WORK so that he could be a MINISTER by feeding the poor out looking for a day's wages.<font>

But he that is an hireling (false worker), and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. John 10:12 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. Zechariah 11:17

Hirelings LEAVE or desert the FLOCK when they deprive them of the only FOOD which God supplies: we must EAT and DRINK the Word because it is SPIRIT and LIFE. Hirfelings EAT UP the Widow's livilhood in exchange for long prayers or HYMNS in the greek world.

lŭpus , talk of the devil, and he appears, to intrust sheep to a wolf, canes, of one who watches his opportunity [Opportunity is KAIROS] to be unobserved, as the wolf does not care whether the number of the sheep is right or not, LUKOS UNNATURAL LOVE, LIVE BY RAPINE, nickname of paiderastai, AP12.250 (Strat.), cf. Pl.Phdr. 241d GRACE as a favor to another man.

The connection of Religious Music or self-exhibition has no historical exception: that is why up to half of the flock flee never looking back as commanded.

A Shepherd is meek and mild and gentle and makes certain that the lambs are not led to thesounds of RUSHING WATERS. A good shepherd does not let another shepherd let the WOLVES (boy lovers) into the flock.

God through Jesus Christ HAS provided all of the food and drink and the Church for REST is a sheepfold or an "unbrellicum" or a Safe House. A shephard FEEDS the flock: the flock does not feed the shepherd.

Sheepfolds are IN the world but they are not OF the World. Lambs are protected from the World View because they are not OF the World.

Both Amos and Stephen remind the Jews that they had been saved by Grace but they fell back into instrumental-trinitarian-idolatry. God abandoned them to worship the starry host and the MUSIC was the MARK that the princes were princesses and would neither feed nor protect the flock. The penalty-then and now-is that God sends the people into captivity and death.



</font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 7th, 2016, 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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September 30th, 2016, 11:32 pm #12

One method preachers use to unseat elders is to call in church growth experts, get them to suggest elders should serve no more than six years, and remove those that have been elders more than six years, and add new ones.

Then the preacher can use his "office" to get his way, such as introduce innovations gradually.

But often this backfires, and the new elders oust him.

Then the elders that survive the preachers, remove the need to resign in six years.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 1st, 2016, 4:39 pm #13

It is amazing how many such "pastor persons" have been able to unseat deacons. My old "investment" in Murfreesboro has a host of MINISTERS (deacons and deaconesses) some on the STIFF.

THEIR deacons are on rotating call to take care of any physical problem. David Young uses his broken scooter as an example of the deacons new demotion. That may have been upgraded to a motorcycle. Under the Law if a priest or Levite needed a new chariot or horse the GOT A JOB and bought one.

Paul defines the elders as THE Pastor-Teachers and job one is to defrock any cunning craftsman or SOPHISTS: they are self-authoring speakers, singers or instrument players. They are DEFROCKED (or De Stolaed) says Jesus as HOLY (wholly) SPIRIT through Paul because THEY ARE LYING IN WAIT TO DECEIVE.

They are LYING about Scripture: the Greeks defined rhetoric, singing or playing instruments as LYING because they could not resist REWRITING the message from a King by a Herald (preacher) to say a field commander.

They are also LYING in the sense of LURKING. The New Kairos Church Planting Plot really means like the demons son of Zeus slinking around finding the right time (kairos) to slip a daggar in your back or steal your property.

2Chr. 20:22 And when they began to sing and to praise, the LORD set ambushments against the children of Ammon, Moab, and mount Seir, which were come against Judah; and they were smitten.


THEY think that they are the SMITERS instead of SMITTEN and gloat about removing the old Bible Centereds.

Deacons are the GOD-ORDAINED ministers and the word includes "teaching." Men who usurp ALL authority from not APT elders are not ministers (servant) but masters and rejecting the pattern of Jesus they are ANTICHRISTS.
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Dave
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October 2nd, 2016, 6:01 pm #14

One method preachers use to unseat elders is to call in church growth experts, get them to suggest elders should serve no more than six years, and remove those that have been elders more than six years, and add new ones.

Then the preacher can use his "office" to get his way, such as introduce innovations gradually.

But often this backfires, and the new elders oust him.

Then the elders that survive the preachers, remove the need to resign in six years.
Are you making this up Scripture, or can you give an example?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 2nd, 2016, 7:30 pm #15

Dianne has asked the question about the modern role of preachers hired to effectively dominate an established congregation. We have posted some of the Biblical and historic opinions scattered throughout other threads.

History will show that all discord and inability of disciples to assemble together as "students" of the Word has always originated with what they call "located evangelists" or "located missionaries."

The problem arises from the engrained tradition of the definition of "church" and of "worship."

Universities holding Elder's meetings with non-elders doing the teaching and classes are held about negotiating a salary and comparative prices throughout the priesthood.

Even of men with supernatural power to confirm their message the first commission defined by Jesus was. Prophecy involved a tiny remnant still living in the land who had not "bowed go Baal."

Jesus nether preached the gospel of salvation to everyone but the Gospel OF the Kingdom or Church. That kingdom is within the little flock and you will never be able to count them and gloat over them. Nor will they come to religious observations because the kingdom and its king will not be there.


Matt. 10:6 But go rather to the LOST SHEEP of the house of Israel.
Matt. 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt. 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Matt. 10:9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Matt. 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Matt. 10:11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
Matt. 10:12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
Matt. 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
Matt. 10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matt. 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


In looking for LOST SHEEP one does not attempt to CAMP OUT and Entertain Goats. Those OF the World or "earth born" are not enterested and however hard and legalistically you work at programs their conscience or spirit will never be holy or pure unless they "glady receive the Word and want to be baptized." That is the MARK which also condemns the world or those who are not suitable for baptism such as those baptized with wind (spirit) and fire.

There is no limit to the number of good works to be done: most of them will perish when the World, Kosmos, Ecumenical kingdom of the Devil is burned up. You have the poor with you always: YOU can just keep your money in your hand as Jesus COMMANDED so that you have something to give to the poor's hand. There is no LAW OF GIVING into the hands of an institution. Even non-Christian communities had a small fund to take care of the destitute who had no family support.

However, the church of Christ (the Rock) with several words used for "assemble" had a very NARROW function. It took place on the sabbath or REST day when those named "ministers of God" were forbidden to go out of their local area.

It was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" or any speaking not required for teaching THE WORD.
It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the WORD only.
Each community had a teacher over groups as small as ten families. There was no called assembly in a religious sence other than as REST which includes the concept of Skole. German Jews call their assembly a SHUL.

That was NEVER changed and the addition of the Lord's Supper preaches the death of Jesus: it's effect is to silence anyone but the Reader.

I know: you have about 20 good works with hired ministers to keep people busy all week. That means that you are HEAPING ON the laded burdens (songs and taxes) which Jesus died to remove. The only person deserving of a 'living' of food AS HE WENT was the evangelist. His mission was to walk in the steps of Jesus to go preach, suffer and die.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 2nd, 2016, 9:52 pm #16

Are you making this up Scripture, or can you give an example?
http://oakhills-church.org/~oakhills/cm ... lletin.pdf
[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Ordination of New Elders and Deacons [/color]
Administrative Elder - Jerry Yonker;
Deacon - Todd Veenhuis
Pastoral Elders - Dave Hitt; Gene & Rosemary Dykema
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Maybe I don't understand the format, but I'm wondering about Rosemary being an elder[?] at Oak Hills (Community) Church.

Can someone verify?[/color]
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October 3rd, 2016, 12:38 pm #17

Are you making this up Scripture, or can you give an example?
This is not hypothetical, since it occurred in a Nashville church.

At least one of the ousted elders had been an elder for 20 years more or less and was ousted after the preacher garnered a study from Harding University that said the elders had been in power too long--I suppose one of those conflict resolution groups or a church growth specialist group. It must have recommended that elders were to serve six years, and then go.

The new elders were installed and then the preacher go on bad sorts with either the congregation or the new elders, or both, and he left "for personal reasons." His departure came, more than coincidentally I think, after the elders had studied and approved instrumental music in a study group on Sunday nights. I read into this as a congregational backlash, or some of the new elders not even liking it.

I had heard this preacher saying that his office should be used a leverage and power to get what he wants. I think the elders may have been dealing with an opportunistic or narcissistic preacher who was leveraging his position against entrenched elder authority. However, that authority must have run deeper than he realized, both into the congregation, and well as into the experience and pedigree even of the new elders.

The elders announced that they were going to do away with the six year rule (very likely) and that no small groups were to be allowed in that church.

Many of the churches in the Nashville area are consolidating around two groups, possibly. Those that like Harding U, and some of these that like Freed Hardeman. Many of long term Lipscomb alumni are sending their children to Freed Hardeman, others to Harding. Lipscomb U. is more or less disowned now by the more careful congregations in the Nashville area.

A former big name preacher for this church has his grandchildren going to Freed Hardeman, and his children are supporting that move.

Notice that I use the words "power", "ousted", "conflict", "backlash", "narcissistic", "elder authority", "six year rule", and "installed." All these words cast a dark shadow around the health of the Nashville churches.



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 3rd, 2016, 3:57 pm #18

Now, I know how to install a commode but I don't know how to INSTALL an elder. Do you plug him in, screw him in or nail him in. A local preacher presumed the authority to INSTALL new elders: when he laid his hands on one of them he PASSED OUT.

Lipscomb has had its problem with the head of the Bible department getting caught in the wrong bed. Another board member and elder picked on a prostitute who happened to be a cop. The gender confusion has been a complaint often voiced in forums.

When the new President came in the statement was to decide whether LU should remain connected to Churches of Christ. This is like getting new church property well financed and DECIDING whether we want to BE what we collected the monies for. We may want to bond with the denominations and "fellership" and therefore endorse preachers who lie about Scripture. Spiritual Formation including Lectio-Divina and Ignatian Mediations by taking the males to a MONK hideaway is the mark of Mother Goddess now in charge. Lection-Divina in the Scriptures means Reading a portion of Divine Revelation. Lectio-Divina means using A word or phrase NOT for content: then you meditate on it until a SPIRIT tells you what Jesus' Spirit might have said IF he had a degree from LU. The DIVINA was the Moon Goddess and the feminists demand that Moon Blood waft from the pulpit: this was supposed to have power so that males treat women just as men treated the EARTH as goddess. It's all in the book.



<font face="arial" size="4">A Heretic or Sectarian is defined in Romans 15 as SELF-PLEASURE which includes SELF-WILL. A heretic or sectarian, say the preachers, means the right to choose. However, they never got past sermon-outlines 101. A Heretic or Sectarian is one who CHOOSES to take YOUR stuff for his own uses. In sacrificial systems the instrumentalists who made the "lambs dumb before the slaughter" was called a PARASITE. The Heretic was the priest who lifted up the lambs to cut their throats.

The papers coming out of the Lipscomb Staff proves the "strong delusion" pattern so that they CANNOT write the truth in any of their papers. They often cherry pick the Restoration writers but the REST of the story proves that they are deliberately blinded. No one could be that Bible Illiterate. NO ONE has the right to BUY or SELL at Lipscomb who has not taken the MARK: the Beast or Therion defines beastly, goat (cappella) in a New Style of Music or Satyric Drama. I have reviewed many of the lectures and they are all pre-recorded to appease the female and feminists now ruling as Christ promised in Isaiah 3.

Areskos or Placeo means to decide to do things that PLEASE the people. Paul would exclude the word which includes CREATING SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT which made the one-piece pattern impossible: "to use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is WRITTEN for our LEARNING." Or "Scripture for our comfort." This is the paraklete word where Jesus still comforts us with His Words.

So, the Bible treats them as ROBBERS OF TEMPLES.

Lipscomb and others have switched from Bible to THEOLOGY which depends on HISTORY for its dogma.

This is PROPHETIC STUFF: Apollon or Abaddon was one of the "sun" gods among the Greeks and gave his name to the SERVICE of the instrumental Levites. He has been unleashed from "hell" along with the Muses: singers or instrument players named LOCUSTS in the literature. The personified SPIRITUS is Apollon and friends. Apollon is the LEADER of the muses or his musical worship team. The muses with all self-exhibitionists were the SHEPHERDESSES and dirty prostitutes. That's selling any of your body parts in the name of a Holy God Who delivered all of the songs and sermons and commanded SPEAK or READ as the only mark of not being neutered: Paul hoped that the knife would slip and they would be cut off or castrated.



<font face="arial" size="4">ALL of them dismiss the Scriptures as proven by taking a verse or part of a verse and then building a sermon which has little to do even with the tidbit read by the BIBLE READING ACT. The Word or Logos is the Regulative Principle and it EXCLUDES any self-willed rhetoric, singing, playing, acting, dancing, waving, clapping, shouting, hugging or kissing.

The apostates call churches of Christ HISTORYLESS meaning they do not DEPEND on tradition and the decision of church councils. However, there is no church council which authorizes writing sermons, singing, playing instruments or any of the false teachings stolen from book writers who have NEVER read true history. Can there be any hope for anyone who thinks they can STUDY GOD?

</font></font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on October 3rd, 2016, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
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October 4th, 2016, 7:11 pm #19

There is no limit to the number of good works to be done: most of them will perish when the World, Kosmos, Ecumenical kingdom of the Devil is burned up. You have the poor with you always: YOU can just keep your money in your hand as Jesus COMMANDED so that you have something to give to the poor's hand. There is no LAW OF GIVING into the hands of an institution. Even non-Christian communities had a small fund to take care of the destitute who had no family support.

However, the church of Christ (the Rock) with several words used for "assemble" had a very NARROW function. It took place on the sabbath or REST day when those named "ministers of God" were forbidden to go out of their local area.

It was EXCLUSIVE of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing" or any speaking not required for teaching THE WORD.
It was INCLUSIVE of Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the WORD only.
Each community had a teacher over groups as small as ten families. There was no called assembly in a religious sence other than as REST which includes the concept of Skole. German Jews call their assembly a SHUL.

That was NEVER changed and the addition of the Lord's Supper preaches the death of Jesus: it's effect is to silence anyone but the Reader.

I know: you have about 20 good works with hired ministers to keep people busy all week. That means that you are HEAPING ON the laded burdens (songs and taxes) which Jesus died to remove. The only person deserving of a 'living' of food AS HE WENT was the evangelist. His mission was to walk in the steps of Jesus to go preach, suffer and die.

Ken asked"Now, I know how to install a commode but I don't know how to INSTALL an elder. Do you plug him in, screw him in or nail him in."

No, you wait for Paul to make another missionary journey to install more elders, or you wait til Jesus comes again to install them.

You ask a stupid question and you get a.......

They are Scriptural so you have them. Ken, you have been part of a coC that INSTALLED them before, how did they do it again.

So you believe that no one will call down your flippant, arrogant diatribe......keep on thinking that, ok?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 5th, 2016, 4:33 am #20

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

Do you believe that Jesus is coming back to this earth and reign for a thousand years in Jerusalem LITERALLY?[/color]
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