PPB
PPB

September 9th, 2005, 12:32 am #21

Christian Scholar's post seems more of an attack on the King James Bible than discussing the Community Church Movement as such. Very well, Christian Scholar claims to have studied Greek and therefore contends that the King James translation of the New Testament is "far from accurate." I would therefore ask the following of Christian Scholar:

1. What specific Greek New Testament edition (Traditional Text [Textus Receptus, Received Text], Critical Text, etc.) did Christian Scholar use as a comparison to draw his/her conclusion?

2. Since the King James Bible provides a literal, word-for-word translation of the Greek New Testament (formal equivalence translation), let Christian Scholar produce at least twelve New Testament passages (or many more if desired) which clearly demonstrate the most profound of alleged inaccuracies of the King James translation. Let the proof be so clear that we cannot do anything but discard our KJVs.

3. Since it is obvious that Christian Scholar rejects the KJV, let him/her not only recommend a specific New Testament translation which is allegedly the most accurate and reliable when compared with the Greek, but also cite ample reasons for this recommendation.
Bill,

He won't be able to. This is part of the "brain washing" that is occuring at these "mega churches" to try and keep their congregations from understanding exactly how far off the path they have travelled.

You see...it's a simple issue. First, they make you feel all warm and cozy. THEN they discredit ANYTHING that disagees with their stance (a legitimate translation of the Bible) so you are left to trust only them (who are led by the Holy Spirit but not the Word...hm...) Then the leaders will let you know which PARTS of each translation they agree with. How else will they keep you from the truth? They certainly don't want you to think for yourself.

It is so sad and such a well-known tactic for cults. What surpises me is how many adults fall for it. The Catholics have used it for years...to the point that most of their members do not own a Bible, much less have ever studied one.

However, our Christian Scholar does NOT come across as one that is very knowledgeable about Greek/Hebrew or he would know that his comments are erroneous and go against any decent Greek scholar. He wouls also know more about the history of the KJV and how many different scholars were involved. He would know that the versions agreed to by these Mega Churches were not translated by Greek Scholars from the original text, but were "culturized" by present day evangalists to make the Bible easier to understand. More bluntly, they were written by poor biblical preachers who didn't like what the original text said (or how it was said) and made up a version that in NO WAY can relate back to the original Greek version.

Our scholar is also very unaware of the history of the Church as it moved across Italy into Europe and then America. He would know that the C of C and other divisions did survive throughout the centuries and were persecuted by the Catholics for their refusal to disobey the Gospels and follow the Pope. He would know that these Churches were almost identical to today's "mainstream" smaller church of Christs. He would also know that the Mega Chruch issue has been debated for centuries and has always been a problem every 150 years or so with the younger generations. This is not a "new" issue nor are their ideas of entertainment "new".

What our scholar fails to realize is that he is speaking to those who are aware of the history of the Church and are very much aware of the issues behind certain translations. He really should have read this website better before posting. Its sad to say, but I do discredit his understanding of Greek text...for his hypothesis is very "immature" and his understanding of the KJV is weak.

I feel this is just an attempt to express anger at people who threaten his "internal dialogue" and beliefs.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 9th, 2005, 1:59 pm #22

PPB,

Thanks for your most valuable insight. Your comments about detractors' anger at people who threaten their "internal dialogue and beliefs" (because such beliefs conflict with the New Testament) is right on target.

What we strive to get across to detractors is that if they waltz into this web site with generic criticisms against the New Testament in general, the KJV in particular, or the Church of Christ, they must be prepared to support their accusations with accurately translated Scripture in complete context. Hurling statements like, "The KJV is inaccurate," "The Church of Christ is a false religion," or "You're just holding up your preferences as divine principles" just won't pass muster without biblical support. Likewise proving ineffective here are the sophomoric "weapons" of sarcasm, satire, and character assassination, which detractors so frequently utilize. Cast them upon the playground and school yard before venturing to this web site.
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kent
kent

September 9th, 2005, 9:05 pm #23

  • ChristianScholar:<font color=red>Ahh, We are so good at taking what believe is the translation of biblical text and making it what want it to say. We as Church of Christ members have the audacity to claim we are the only non-denominal church, and we say that all these community churches are just denominations in disguise? Hmm well i would argue that we are nothing more than a denomination in disguise. </font>
SOME people may have said that just as SOME people may use that claim to discredit OTHER THINGS. There is a community church denomination and then there are others which have STOLEN the name. Because you are such a scholar you know that there were about 421 separate denominations formed out of the Great American Awakening. Most of these were Baptists and someone has counted 156 separate Baptist denominations. NONE of that has anything to do with the LUSTED FOR changes.

I know of no major religious group which you can identify which does not have collectivists meetings to thresh out opinions and dogmas. They almost always train men and make sure they get PLACED in the group and most feed funds into a central headquarters. If you know of a specific non-denominational group then let us know. I know that the Jubilee hoped that they would spawn a group which met annually to be fed good stuff about HOW TO RAISE HOLY HANDS or be conditioned to instrumental music. They began with a Sunday school program but that probably got stamped on just as has the whole Jubilee denominational or INCORPORATED movement.
  • ChristianScholar:<font color=red>I love the arrogance that you all have to believe that our church is the original church formed at Pentecost as if our ways of thinking are directly from the bible. What you should all do is spend some time studying the path of Christianity from Palestine, to Italy, To Turkey, To England and eventually to the United States and then maybe you would realize that Church of Christ is simply an offshoot of a thought process that has been carried down. </font>
Ignatius who Died C. 110 wrote to the Ephesians spoke of THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. The Apostolic Constitutions identifies the church as THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. ALL of these writers defended the NAME of the church, the organization of the church, the worship of the church including rejecting music and even musicians from membership until they repented. They all rejected the trinity concept and all insisted on Baptism FOR the remission of sins. So CHRISTIAN SCHOLAR, you will never find any evidence to hallucinate Musical Worship Teams until the Pope imported the A Capella who were ALA CASTRATOS to perform in the Sistine Chapel where organs were outlawed.

Not until AFTER the Reformation did the Catholics or anyone ever have congregational singing WITH instrumental accompanied. Organs were signals to mark processionals, recessionals and were more like a pitchpipe for the Precentor but NOT to accompany "singing."
  • ChristianScholar:<font color=red>Im sure that many of you would claim that Martin Luther was some sort of Anti-Christ yet without him there would be no Church of Christ. </font>
On the contrary, thou who reads textbooks by Ph.Duhs who have never read Luther, Restoration Scholars who read original documents in original languages speak the same way Luther, Calvin and others spoke. What the lying "scholars" say about "american" invention is NOT TRUE in ANY SINGLE INSTANCE. T. Campbell spoke Luther's Sola Fide absolutely: "Faith must have have an object." Luther's Sola Fide meant Sola Scriptura because you cannot believe something you have not heard. Because the Sola Fide produced by Sola Scripture DEMANDED baptism for the remission of sins, Sola Fide demanded Salvation by Baptism Only. You didn't know that! Huh? Martin would repudiate LUTHERAN and would call himself a member of THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. We could use his description of baptism without change. He even put infant baptism in the cast of "baby dedication."

AD 150-211 Clement of Alexandria 354-430 Augustine of Hippo AND EVERYONE considered itself THE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

Luther defended OUR form of baptism FOR the remission of sins for those old enough to believe. Erasmus and Calvin called it the church of Christ, rejected music, the trinity of three Shellyite "people," and cast out the organs, choirs and restored congregational singing. Calvin rejected that the Spirit operated outside of the Word and called his effort A RESTORATION MOVEMENT.

ALL of the literary evidence proves that THE GOAL of all protestants was to RESTORE the faith and practice of the church to the BIBLICAL STANDARD. So, it is another big lie that Anti-instrumental churches of Christ INVENTED the concept of Commands, Examples and Inferences which is WELL DOCUMENTED in the Bible and all scholarship.

Constantine DID NOT form the canon but included what he wanted collected together to print. The Bible is a LIBRARY and there were MANY cannons based on what books were referred to by individual writers. MAKING A LIST did not include or exclude anything which has stood the test of time. The Old Testament as we have it with the Apocrypha existed and Jesus may have had a BOUND COPY because that is what he quotes. Adding the Apocryphal will only get you MORE association of MUSIC with the Devil and the sacrificial system.

ALL of the non-canonical literature CASTIGATES music as a worship concept and assigns it to Satan as does the Bible and ALL contemporaneous literature. So, the only thing you could ADD would be Babylonian tablets continued as Gnosticism and the Mother Goddess worship under Sophia and ZOE. Even among the Gnostics Zoe is called THE BEAST and the FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE.

Defend what YOU as PROGRESSIVE believe which is CONTRARY to the 2,000 year history of THE CHURCH OF CHRIST and let us see what you are screaming about. Amos, Isaiah, Ezekiel and other identify PROGRESSIVE with INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC.

GIVE US SOME TRUE BLUE TRANSLATION WHICH REFUTES ANYTHING CHURCH OF CHRIST. I can refute professional riders on church widows, the Law of Giving, the Law of Singing and that TRUMPS you.
oh thank you miss ppb for your valuble insight!
What dribble dr bill. your full of $%%^$ as a christmas goose!

Bleeah!!

I see the usual suspects are still out hear ranting and raving!

Your faithful detractor,
Kent
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 10th, 2005, 2:37 am #24

"Kent," the epitome of detractor:

1. He cannot respond without using or suggesting profanity/vulgarity (as borne out in the post here and in other threads).

2. He hasn't ever contributed one single, original essay to this site, only responses laced with sarcasm, satire, character assassinations, and, of course, profanity/vulgarity.

3. He cannot even begin to make a rational, legitimate argument against this web site, let alone back it up with any valid Scripture.

Conclusion: We'll waste no more time on detractor Kent, for his future posts will only be sordid variations on what we've just witnessed.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 10th, 2005, 8:12 am #25

oh thank you miss ppb for your valuble insight!
What dribble dr bill. your full of $%%^$ as a christmas goose!

Bleeah!!

I see the usual suspects are still out hear ranting and raving!

Your faithful detractor,
Kent
I’m going to retract what I said previously about not wasting any more time on the detractor Kent. It’s quite obvious that any person who repeatedly resorts to profanity and vulgarity in order to communicate, especially to fellow Christians on this web site, is filled, not with the spirit of Christ, but with the spirit of evil. Such a person as Kent is in serious need of spiritual help.

Therefore, I call upon all those who regularly contribute to Concerned Members, supporters and detractors alike, to put away doctrinal disputes momentarily and offer prayer on Kent’s behalf. This guy at least deserves a chance to rid himself of this bane of profanity, vulgarity, and general hatred, and massive prayer from other Christians surely can’t hurt.

Christ warned of severe penalties to those who used abusive language against their brother. The examples He used were “Raca” (“empty head”) and “Thou fool” (Matt 5:22 KJV). Calling the Church of Christ “you racist old bastards! All of you!” and “Print this you jackasses” (both from “RE: Old Book,” April 25, 2005 in the “Change Agents Convince; But Do Not Convict” thread) or implying that someone is filled with excrement from a Christmas goose would certainly fall under the same warning. Another "Kent" quote: “If God is such a mean [S.O.B.] that he will damn to hell someone for saying damn, [excrement], Eff off, etc, i [sic] dont [sic] need that god [sic]” (Ex-Church of Christ web site discussion board).

Therefore, I call upon Kent to examine his life, to repent of the abusive, profane, and vulgar language with which he has addressed other Christians at this web site, and to ask forgiveness not only from those against whom he has trespassed, but from Christ as well. I’ll begin by forgiving Kent. May others do the same.

Now knowing human nature as I do, I would not be surprised to see a blistering response from Kent himself, along with his full vocabulary of profanity and vulgarity. If so, then Kent would definitely be on a downhill slide to oblivion. But if his sure-to-come response bears evidence of contrition and remorse, then his soul just may heal and he become a useful Christian in Christ’s service.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 10th, 2005, 3:22 pm #26

oh thank you miss ppb for your valuble insight!
What dribble dr bill. your full of $%%^$ as a christmas goose!

Bleeah!!

I see the usual suspects are still out hear ranting and raving!

Your faithful detractor,
Kent
<font color=red size=3 face=times new roman>Kent/Brad,

We already know your style and your fake ID (cf. “Ken, Donnie, Jimmy Legalists” thread). You’ve been given ample chances, but you are truly a “faithful detractor” by your own admission. Mental evaluation is over—and you need help.

Despite all that, any [but only] substantive article from Kent (a.k.a. Brad) or someone else will be posted.


Donnie</font>
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Christian Scholar
Christian Scholar

September 11th, 2005, 7:53 pm #27

I’m going to retract what I said previously about not wasting any more time on the detractor Kent. It’s quite obvious that any person who repeatedly resorts to profanity and vulgarity in order to communicate, especially to fellow Christians on this web site, is filled, not with the spirit of Christ, but with the spirit of evil. Such a person as Kent is in serious need of spiritual help.

Therefore, I call upon all those who regularly contribute to Concerned Members, supporters and detractors alike, to put away doctrinal disputes momentarily and offer prayer on Kent’s behalf. This guy at least deserves a chance to rid himself of this bane of profanity, vulgarity, and general hatred, and massive prayer from other Christians surely can’t hurt.

Christ warned of severe penalties to those who used abusive language against their brother. The examples He used were “Raca” (“empty head”) and “Thou fool” (Matt 5:22 KJV). Calling the Church of Christ “you racist old bastards! All of you!” and “Print this you jackasses” (both from “RE: Old Book,” April 25, 2005 in the “Change Agents Convince; But Do Not Convict” thread) or implying that someone is filled with excrement from a Christmas goose would certainly fall under the same warning. Another "Kent" quote: “If God is such a mean [S.O.B.] that he will damn to hell someone for saying damn, [excrement], Eff off, etc, i [sic] dont [sic] need that god [sic]” (Ex-Church of Christ web site discussion board).

Therefore, I call upon Kent to examine his life, to repent of the abusive, profane, and vulgar language with which he has addressed other Christians at this web site, and to ask forgiveness not only from those against whom he has trespassed, but from Christ as well. I’ll begin by forgiving Kent. May others do the same.

Now knowing human nature as I do, I would not be surprised to see a blistering response from Kent himself, along with his full vocabulary of profanity and vulgarity. If so, then Kent would definitely be on a downhill slide to oblivion. But if his sure-to-come response bears evidence of contrition and remorse, then his soul just may heal and he become a useful Christian in Christ’s service.
I believe that you people are the ones in need of real prayers. As you continue to Alienate Thousands from Christianity because of your closemindedness and your blaten ignorance many are turning to other forms of faith. Maybe we all including myself need to stop worrying so much about what other Valid Churches are doing(Yes they are valid, im sorry "Your" view of scripture is not black and white, Others have valid ways of translating the bible, You are not omnipotant as many of you feel you are) and Look at ourselves and see how our church is damaging the Face of Christianity. Maybe when we all stop this petty quibbling over which church is right than we will in fact be able to bring more believers in christ. Im sorry you do not have some sort of right on Heaven. Heaven is open to many more people than just so called Church of Christ members and i think you will all be in for big surprise when and if we get there(judgement is reserved for Jesus alone so I will not judge who will not go to heaven and im not close to arrogant enough to believe that i know who will enter the kingdom) So, Before you go and claim someone else needs prayers because of thier sin you should examine your own, I believe there is some verse about that in Matthew... it may even be in my TNIV bible as well, even though as well all know my book is the book of the deciever
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 12th, 2005, 1:50 am #28

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Christian Scholar:

Yes, WE ALL are in need of real prayers. But I’m wondering, personally, why you have come to the defense of someone who is full of … um … expletives. I think you have brought up some issues that are worth discussing. OK, you have presented your premises. Rebuttals have been given. Now, it’s your turn to refute the rebuttals. Shall we just continue discussing? This would help determine close-mindedness, blatant ignorance, alienation, arrogance or anything else you mentioned in your post above—wouldn’t you think?

Thanks for your consideration.

Donnie</font>
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Dr Bill Crump
Dr Bill Crump

September 12th, 2005, 2:01 am #29

I believe that you people are the ones in need of real prayers. As you continue to Alienate Thousands from Christianity because of your closemindedness and your blaten ignorance many are turning to other forms of faith. Maybe we all including myself need to stop worrying so much about what other Valid Churches are doing(Yes they are valid, im sorry "Your" view of scripture is not black and white, Others have valid ways of translating the bible, You are not omnipotant as many of you feel you are) and Look at ourselves and see how our church is damaging the Face of Christianity. Maybe when we all stop this petty quibbling over which church is right than we will in fact be able to bring more believers in christ. Im sorry you do not have some sort of right on Heaven. Heaven is open to many more people than just so called Church of Christ members and i think you will all be in for big surprise when and if we get there(judgement is reserved for Jesus alone so I will not judge who will not go to heaven and im not close to arrogant enough to believe that i know who will enter the kingdom) So, Before you go and claim someone else needs prayers because of thier sin you should examine your own, I believe there is some verse about that in Matthew... it may even be in my TNIV bible as well, even though as well all know my book is the book of the deciever
Christian Scholar:

Can't you put aside your obvious hatred for us for a few minutes and offer some heart-felt prayer for a poor soul like Kent/Brad who has an obvious fetish for profanity/vulgarity, as I asked? That's so obvious that it's a no-brainer about whether it's wrong or not. We all need prayer, because we ALL sin. But I'm beginning to think that, because you manifest such intense hostility toward us, you are in need of special prayer to help you rid yourself of such hatred. You mentioned Matthew and sin. There’s also a verse in Matt. about using abusive language toward your brother (Matt. 5:22 KJV). Further, there’s a verse in Matt. which implies that having animosity toward your brother cancels any offering that you could present to God (Matt. 5:23-24 KJV). Scholar, you obviously have animosity toward us and this web site. I admonish you to be reconciled to us and thus fulfill the command of Matt. 23-24.

BTW, you never did respond to the three requests I made of you earlier regarding your false premise that the KJV is inaccurate. So I will restate them:

1. What specific Greek New Testament edition (Traditional Text [Textus Receptus, Received Text], Critical Text, etc.) did you use as a comparison to form such a conclusion?

2. Please produce at least twelve New Testament passages (or many more if desired) which clearly demonstrate the most profound of alleged inaccuracies of the King James translation. Let the proof be so clear that we cannot do anything but discard our KJVs.

3. Since it is obvious that you reject the KJV, please recommend a specific New Testament translation which is allegedly the most accurate and reliable when compared with the Greek, and please cite ample reasons for this recommendation.

You have made certain accusations. Now you must be prepared to back them up with Scripture in complete context; if not, you automatically proclaim yourself a false person.

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Anonymous
Anonymous

September 12th, 2005, 2:09 am #30

<font color=red size=3 face=times new roman>Kent/Brad,

We already know your style and your fake ID (cf. “Ken, Donnie, Jimmy Legalists” thread). You’ve been given ample chances, but you are truly a “faithful detractor” by your own admission. Mental evaluation is over—and you need help.

Despite all that, any [but only] substantive article from Kent (a.k.a. Brad) or someone else will be posted.


Donnie</font>
hey crump, who gave you permission to copy a post i made on another web site?

The thought still applies though.
Oblivion Hmm. you are one distubed man
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