Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 19th, 2016, 3:13 pm #161

Capela is PLACE where a pope got tired of the "falsettos" (Levites).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjvfqnD0ws

Not APT elders do the same thing! That is why people abandone their own "church house" and flee into the wilderness.

Paul warned about them and hoped that they let the knife slip.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on June 19th, 2016, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill
Bill

June 19th, 2016, 4:10 pm #162

Donnie said "During the time of Christ and based on Hebrew practices, cantillation or chanting -- not the singing style of the contemporary musical artists Twila Paris or Michael W. Smith -- describes more accurately the type of hymning in the first century."

Donnie, you know why I KNOW that you aren't really into or EVER going to be "into" a fruituful or meaningful holy dialogue of the Scriptures? Because if you were truthful and really wanting a valid discussion you would not have mentioned ONLY those contemporary musical artists but mentioned also the wonderful and VALID congregational a capella singing that happens to go on in a lot of church of Christs. You mentioned those contemporary artists because you are trying to prove Ken Sublett's point, even to your own detriment. You could have mentioned that the cantillation or chanting {Hebrew practices as you mentioned) eventually evolved into the a cappella singing of today. But no, you had to believe you needed to prove Ken right (he falsely believes that there should be no singing and that the apostles did not sing or chant) even when you sashay yourself over to the traditional service and sing away yourself.

It is callled being a hypocrite and is why I choose to come here occasionally ONLY to let the readers know that you and Ken are false teachers.
Nothing wrong with chanting or singing hymns. The KJV New Testament does not explicitly forbid singing hymns. Of course, those who would purge churches of singing altogether run to the Catholic DRB when the KJV doesn't suit them. What's ironic (and hypocritical) is the person who downplays singing hymns yet "piously" sings those same hymns in the worship assembly. Such a person is nothing but a religious fraud and a miserable sham.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 19th, 2016, 7:42 pm #163

Paul said to SPEAK psalms, hymns and spiritual songs which are in the BOOK of Psalm. Bill is free to do what Bill gotta do. This is simply a reading test.
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Bill
Bill

June 19th, 2016, 10:12 pm #164

Paul also said to SING and make melody in the heart. So chanting and singing are both acceptable. As before, the KJV New Testament does not explicitly condemn singing. Only those with a personal agenda condemn singing.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 19th, 2016, 10:25 pm #165

Nothing wrong with chanting or singing hymns. The KJV New Testament does not explicitly forbid singing hymns. Of course, those who would purge churches of singing altogether run to the Catholic DRB when the KJV doesn't suit them. What's ironic (and hypocritical) is the person who downplays singing hymns yet "piously" sings those same hymns in the worship assembly. Such a person is nothing but a religious fraud and a miserable sham.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, you've responded to Dave's post -- which is OK: I'm not complaining. Just to remind you, though, that I posted a message in direct response to yours on the previous page. (While there may be an intervening post that is indented leftmost and is showing at the bottom of the page, it doesn't mean that the preceding, ongoing conversation [above it] has ended. In this situation, you can still respond to my post above.)

A serious Bible student should be wise enough NOT to rely on a specific "thou shalt not" in order to prove that something is really forbidden or prohibited. You're using the same argument that instrumental music advocates use, i.e.: "Give me a scripture that says, 'Thou shalt not use instrumental music in the assembly." Of course, you will not find: "Thou shalt not sing hymns."

A serious Bible student does a lot of research as well. Translators are human and have predisposition tendencies. Not all translations are equal. So, we should seek for proper translations of specific verses that parallel (not contradict) related verses in other translations. My posts have been about just that: "A HYMN BEING SAID" in Douay-Rheims matches the passages regarding "SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES IN ... HYMNS" in the KJV.

Maybe you have a good explanation as to why you do not or why you refuse to UNDERSTAND the parallel between those two versions.

We allow opposing arguments on this site, but attacking a person here as you and Dave do is beyond civility. [You know it when certain posts of yours are not published.] So, let's keep our arguments limited to just that: Scripture versus man's opining.

No, I do not "piously" sing "those same hymns." In at least 90% of the time, the great hymns of the past have been "extinguished." The remaining occasional hymns, in some case, have been modified into false teachings.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 19th, 2016, 10:44 pm #166

Paul also said to SING and make melody in the heart. So chanting and singing are both acceptable. As before, the KJV New Testament does not explicitly condemn singing. Only those with a personal agenda condemn singing.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Singing is good. No one is opposed to singing.

But what don't you understand in:

(1) "SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES IN psalms and HYMNS and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19)?

(2) "LET THE WORD OF CHRIST DWELL IN YOU richly in all wisdom; TEACHING AND ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER IN psalms and HYMNS and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16)?

We speak with the mouth; we sing in the heart.

We speak to one another; we do not sing to one another; we sing to the Lord.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 20th, 2016, 12:03 am #167

Donnie said "During the time of Christ and based on Hebrew practices, cantillation or chanting -- not the singing style of the contemporary musical artists Twila Paris or Michael W. Smith -- describes more accurately the type of hymning in the first century."

Donnie, you know why I KNOW that you aren't really into or EVER going to be "into" a fruituful or meaningful holy dialogue of the Scriptures? Because if you were truthful and really wanting a valid discussion you would not have mentioned ONLY those contemporary musical artists but mentioned also the wonderful and VALID congregational a capella singing that happens to go on in a lot of church of Christs. You mentioned those contemporary artists because you are trying to prove Ken Sublett's point, even to your own detriment. You could have mentioned that the cantillation or chanting {Hebrew practices as you mentioned) eventually evolved into the a cappella singing of today. But no, you had to believe you needed to prove Ken right (he falsely believes that there should be no singing and that the apostles did not sing or chant) even when you sashay yourself over to the traditional service and sing away yourself.

It is callled being a hypocrite and is why I choose to come here occasionally ONLY to let the readers know that you and Ken are false teachers.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

False teachers you say? Let's see about that!!!

Some may even consider us "ultra-conservative"; but that's OK with me. You see, Dave, Christians are to abide by the teachings and principles of Christ and His apostles. Those in the Restoration Movement who preceded us let the New Testament and its principles be their guide. And Christians today should do the same. We align with our forefathers of the Restoration Movement.

On the other hand, the change agents are out there attempting to rewrite the Restoration Movement and actively and busily modifying teachings in the New Testament. They're so culture-driven that the gospel of Christ has been modified, altered or enhanced for the sake of cultural accommodations. (Sorry, you may claim to be "conservative," but you do have liberal, progressive leanings; so it appears that you're aligned with the change agents.)

Whatever we teach here, for those who are really interested and serious about studying the Bible, is Scripture-based and conforms to the teachings of the great pioneers of the Restoration Movement era.

It's unfortunate that you have misunderstood Ken's messages [and mine too] in many ways. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will recognize and accept historical facts about paganism that strongly influenced the Roman Church (then; "Catholic" now) from which Protestant Churches acquired those pagan-oriented practices. A better understanding of the history of the "a cappella"; the history of congregational singing; the history of instrumental music in the assembly ... would be beneficial in discussing topics pertaining to "music in the church."

I will continue to oppose most of the feel-good "contemporary Christian ROCK music" -- devoid of truth -- being sung in the assembly. I find very few (if any) that qualify being called a "hymn." [/color]
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Bill
Bill

June 20th, 2016, 1:28 am #168

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Singing is good. No one is opposed to singing.

But what don't you understand in:

(1) "SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES IN psalms and HYMNS and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" (Ephesians 5:19)?

(2) "LET THE WORD OF CHRIST DWELL IN YOU richly in all wisdom; TEACHING AND ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER IN psalms and HYMNS and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Colossians 3:16)?

We speak with the mouth; we sing in the heart.

We speak to one another; we do not sing to one another; we sing to the Lord.[/color]
What Donnie doesn't understand is that we speak AND sing with the mouth and make melody with the heart. As Paul said in Eph. 5:19, we speak to ourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, but we also sing and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. The speaking is done to ourselves; the singing and making melody in the heart is to the Lord.

As Paul said in Col. 3:16, we teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs; we also sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord.

Taking both verses together, it boils down to this: with our voices, we speak, teach, and admonish ourselves with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs; with our voices, we SING those psalms, hymns, spiritual songs and make melody in our hearts with grace in our hearts to the Lord.

That sums it all up.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 20th, 2016, 2:24 am #169

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

False teachers you say? Let's see about that!!!

Some may even consider us "ultra-conservative"; but that's OK with me. You see, Dave, Christians are to abide by the teachings and principles of Christ and His apostles. Those in the Restoration Movement who preceded us let the New Testament and its principles be their guide. And Christians today should do the same. We align with our forefathers of the Restoration Movement.

On the other hand, the change agents are out there attempting to rewrite the Restoration Movement and actively and busily modifying teachings in the New Testament. They're so culture-driven that the gospel of Christ has been modified, altered or enhanced for the sake of cultural accommodations. (Sorry, you may claim to be "conservative," but you do have liberal, progressive leanings; so it appears that you're aligned with the change agents.)

Whatever we teach here, for those who are really interested and serious about studying the Bible, is Scripture-based and conforms to the teachings of the great pioneers of the Restoration Movement era.

It's unfortunate that you have misunderstood Ken's messages [and mine too] in many ways. Maybe, hopefully, someday you will recognize and accept historical facts about paganism that strongly influenced the Roman Church (then; "Catholic" now) from which Protestant Churches acquired those pagan-oriented practices. A better understanding of the history of the "a cappella"; the history of congregational singing; the history of instrumental music in the assembly ... would be beneficial in discussing topics pertaining to "music in the church."

I will continue to oppose most of the feel-good "contemporary Christian ROCK music" -- devoid of truth -- being sung in the assembly. I find very few (if any) that qualify being called a "hymn." [/color]
Birthday and Father's Day we spent a bit of time singing: my wife showed that you can sing the newspaper. A suffering in silence daughter is astounded that there is never any attempt to "teach that which has been taught" so she could memorize and sing all week. Singing or any tunful speaking is universally the mark of people intending to deceive you.

Donnie, most of the masses OF the world are not supposed to know or confess any spiritual truth. As at Mount Sinai they RISE UP AGAINST God and challenge him with singing, playing instruments always leading to playing with one one another. (Romans 1)

For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deut 18:14

These are singers or instrument players always intended to enchant or DECEIVE. In Revelation 18 they are called SORCERERS

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
of thy brethren, like unto me;
.....unto him ye shall HEARKEN;<b> Deut 18:15</b>


Jesus is called a PROPHET:
.....According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb
.....in the day of the assembly,
.....saying, Let me not HEAR again the VOICE of the Lord my God,
.....neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. Deut 18:16

And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. Deut 18:17

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,
.....and will put my WORDS in his mouth;
.....and he shall SPEAK unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18

And it shall come to pass,
.....that whosoever will not hearken unto my WORDS
.....which he shall SPEAKING in my name, I will require it of him. Deut 18:19

But the prophet, which shall presume to SPEAK a WORD in my name,
.....which I have not commanded him to speak,
.....or that shall speak in the name of other gods,
.....even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20


When the READ AND SPEAK are the unique GOD words or anyone who wants to ocmmunicate truth, and the masses of people even hire professional musicians or "praise leaders" to perform the ACT (legalism) called worship you know that they are SPIRITUALLY DEAD and are beginning to smell up the Houses of Safety ordained by Jesus FROM such robbers of temples.

Jesus honored the Law of Silence. The term "Son" is defined as the faithful WORDS of the "Father." Jesus identified a son of the Devil as a liar because "he speaks on his own."

For I have not SPOKEN of myself; but the Father which sent me,
.....he gave me a commandment,
.....what I should SAY, and what I should SPEAK. Jn.12:49

And I know that his commandment is LIFE everlasting:
.....whatsoever I SPEAK therefore,
.....even as the Father SAID unto me, so I SPEAK. Jn.12:50

It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing:
.....the WORDS that I speak unto you,
.....they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE. John 6:63

Henceforth I call you not servants;
.....for the servant knoweth NOT what his lord doeth:
.....but I have called you friends;
.....for all things that I have HEARD of my Father
.....I have made known unto you. Jn.15:15</font>

For those with A holy spirit by request only by obeying in baptism, Jesus HAS MADE KNOWN everything you will ever know from God. The musical SORCERERS blaspheme Jesus by saying that HE simply did not understand our culture.

Jesus said that God HIDES from the WISE those who are self-authorint in song and sermon do not know how to define a SOPHIST.

A SOPHIST sells rhetoric, singing, playing instruments especially in th e name of religion.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 20th, 2016, 3:06 am #170

What Donnie doesn't understand is that we speak AND sing with the mouth and make melody with the heart. As Paul said in Eph. 5:19, we speak to ourselves in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, but we also sing and make melody in our hearts to the Lord. The speaking is done to ourselves; the singing and making melody in the heart is to the Lord.

As Paul said in Col. 3:16, we teach and admonish each other in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs; we also sing with grace in our hearts to the Lord.

Taking both verses together, it boils down to this: with our voices, we speak, teach, and admonish ourselves with psalms, hymns, spiritual songs; with our voices, we SING those psalms, hymns, spiritual songs and make melody in our hearts with grace in our hearts to the Lord.

That sums it all up.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]What Bill doesn't understand is that "speaking" and "singing" are two different words. We SPEAK TO "YOURSELVES" (teach and admonish "one another") in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs (collectively the word of Christ). "SPEAKING to yourselves" as the verses indicate does NOT mean "SINGING to yourselves." Whether or not Bill likes the idea of "SINGING TO YOURSELVES" or "SINGING TO ONE ANOTHER." Maybe that's what Bill likes to do -- "singing" to each other instead of "speaking" to one another: in order to teach one another the word of Christ. BTW, it's OK with me, Bill, if you enjoy "singing to one another."

Maybe the church is just not doing enough SPEAKING to teach and admonish one another with the word of Christ. (Bill, let us know when you schedule an hour-session to teach the word of Christ BY SINGING [instead of SPEAKING] the entire hour. See the point?)

If "SINGING to yourselves" or "SINGING to one another" were the intended content in those passages, it would have been stated so. But that's not the case. Clearly it is stated: "SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES...."

The crux of the matter is that we SPEAK to teach and admonish one another; we SING in the heart TO THE LORD -- we do not want to SING to teach and admonish the Lord, do we?

No substituting of words is necessary.[/color]
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