Church Singing II

Bill
Bill

June 24th, 2016, 2:38 pm #11


Do the moderators of this site believe any and all tuneful vocal Church singing is wrong/evil in the local church of Christ?
The moderators have a difference of opinion about church singing. Donnie sees nothing wrong with singing hymns that are not performance-and-culture-driven. Yet because he continually and strongly emphasizes that the NT says to "speak" hymns, he leaves the contradictory impression that hymn-singing is wrong. So he seems to be perpetually confused on that point.

In Ken's opinion, on the other hand, all forms of music and hymn-singing in church are wrong and should be abolished.

The bottom line: churches of Christ are not likely to drop hymn-singing any time soon.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 24th, 2016, 5:25 pm #12

Donnie came here west-to-east: I came here east-to-west.
Donnie nor I picked the same wife.
Donnie is smarter but I am more persistent.
Donnie is kind and I am dogmatic.
Neither are so low that we would "upset your comfort zones" so you can pay us to expose our eternally-marked persona of self-exhibitionists.

My 95 year old mother didn't agree with me either: she enjoyed singing, I found it disturbing and wasteful of Jesus Time.
Donnie may be structured so that the factual-discording of complex harmony is enjoyable: I am one of the massive majority who are afflicted with Ahedonia.

That's why this forum just "lets Jesus do the talking" without focusing on what WE DO for that one hour a week. That way you can do your own thing and I can do my own thing.

Matt. 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Matt. 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter,
What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 26th, 2016, 1:36 am #13

Recorded history knows of no "singing" in any form before the fourth century after Constantine began paying the poor priests.

Hastings. Encyclopedia.Religion.Ethics.html
There was also an early vigil from cockcrow to dawn kept by 'all MONKS and virgins,' and by some lay-folk also. Of course the devotions at the central holy place of Christendom were more generally attended than elsewhere and more elaborate in form, including already four daily services at least. But the account gives us clear insight into the way in which worship became more specialized and developed. And by a good deal of evidence from the last quarter of the century we can ' fix the period A.D. 350-375 as that of the introduction of daily public evening and morning prayers into the Eastern Church, followed a few years later by that of Milan.'1

As regards forms of devotion dating from the 4th cent., neither the morning hymn (Gloria in exceltis) nor the evening one,1 tor instance, seems then to belong to public service. The former appears in varied contexts (e.g., after the Biblical Canticles or 'Odes' in the Codex Alex.); and in the Eastern Church it is part of the Daily Office (Lands), while in the Western it is in the Mass— whither most prized forms tended to gravitate. Once, however, both perhaps were part of the worship of an ascetic community.

The eveninghymn, like another vesper hymn, ' Hail, gladdening light', referred to by St. Basil1 as already ancient, may originally have been a thanksgiving 'at the lighting of the lamps' either in the home or at an Agape,' passing later into use among ascetics, like the table-prayers of the Didache into de Virg. xii f. In this last the Gloria is part of the virgin's praise ' towards dawn.'* Closely connected in feeling and ideas with the Gloria, and perhaps with its fellow vesper hymn (Te deeet laiu), is the best known Latin hymn, the Te Deum, now traced to Nicetas of Remesiana, who as living on the road between the East and West would naturally feel the influence of Greek models. Nicetas in his works ' On Vigils' and ' On the good of Psalmody' illustrates further the similarity of ideals of private and corporate devotional hours in East and West c. A.d. 400 ;4 and he was one of the pioneers of the newer feeling which allowed hymns other than those in Scripture, the Psalter above all, to form part of corporate Christian worship, though the prejudice against this died hard.' The authority of St. Ambrose, who himself wrote hymns for public worship, had no doubt great influence. The musical difficulty to their more general use was a real one. It was in monastic circles, then, that hymns proper took real root, and from their daily offices passed in the later Middle Ages into the Breviary of the ordinary clergy.


This clergy occupied the "church house" all day long because they like modern STAFF believes that they have to keep contact with the "gods" on behalf of the laity which did not attend these "make works" for the new clergy who came in from being evangelists or "poor priests." History repeats and repeats if you let the idlers get access to the feed trough.

If you read the scholars during this period you will find that singing had little to nothing with the public assembly: Like "harmony" when the MONKS had time to fiddle around with the newly-imposed but simple organs.

That does not prevent ALL of the latter day preachers from proclaiming that Churches of Christ REMOVED musical instruments simply because they were ignorant, southern red-necks. "MUSIC" or poetry IS DEFINED in the Greek text as LYING because the poetic persona whines about what it would be if HE-SHE had written Scripture.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 27th, 2016, 2:38 am #14

Schaff§ 19. The Abolition of the Roman Worship. 1524.

Bullinger, I. 173 sqq. Egli, 234 sqq.

By these preparatory measures, public opinion was prepared for the practical application of the new ideas. The old order of worship had to be abolished before the new order could be introduced.

The destruction was radical, but orderly. It was effected by the co-operation of the preachers and the civil magistracy, with the consent of the people. It began at Pentecost, and was completed June 20, 1524.

In the presence of a deputation from the authorities of Church and State, accompanied by architects, masons and carpenters, the churches of the city were purged of pictures, relics, crucifixes, altars, candles, and all ornaments, the frescoes effaced, and the walls whitewashed, so that nothing remained but the bare building to be filled by a worshiping congregation. The pictures were broken and burnt, some given to those who had a claim, a few preserved as antiquities. The bones of the saints were buried.

Even the organs were removed, and the Latin singing of the choir abolished, but fortunately afterwards replaced by congregational singing of psalms and hymns in the vernacular <font color="#FF0000">(in Basle as early as 1526, in St. Gall 1527, in Zurich in 1598)


"Within thirteen days," says Bullinger, "all the churches of the city were cleared; costly works of painting and sculpture, especially a beautiful table in the Waterchurch, were destroyed. The superstitious lamented; but the true believers rejoiced in it as a great and joyous worship of God." 103

103 I. 175. Bullinger justifies the abolition of church music (which took place in the Grossmunster, Dec. 9, 1527) with St. Paul' objection to the unintelligible glossolalia without interpretation (1 Cor. 14:6-9). He must, of course, mean the chanting of a choir in Latin. The Swiss Reformed churches excel in congregational singing.


Isn't it pitiful that people spend so much money and sow so much discord and HINDER the Word by claiming that GOD COMMANDED singing AND playing instruments? While they kept you busy this morning you could be meeting to PREACH the Word by READING the Word. Maybe almost everyone is a Slave of the Watchtower and need DEPROGRAMMED.
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Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

June 27th, 2016, 8:34 pm #15

The older generation wants to hold on to the songs they grew up with.
The younger generation wants new songs they can relate to.
The elders try to accommodate both groups by only adding a few songs for the younger generation.
The older generation must bend if they don't want discord in the assembly.
The next generation will want new songs too. Get ready to bend younger generation.
The owl generation sitting there wondering what's going on, never knowing there had been changes brewing.
The poster, who was a part of the older- owl generation, started paying attention to the changes.
The poster only wants to do the will of the Father, as I'm sure some others do too.
The poster has a suggestion: instead of trying to please ourselves, take all songs away that are not
Scripture. Then there will be no more fighting on who gets a say on what will be
Included in the song book. This way Jesus Christ is the referee and teacher then we can learn
the bible and the will of the Father at the same time.


By the way, I also love some of the old songs that are no longer sung. I sing them while I am by myself, but I would rather have scripture imbedded in my mind. I didn't realize the turmoil had been brewing for many years on the music issue. If something causes this much heartache and strife, then the simple solution is to remove it, and start over.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 29th, 2016, 9:19 pm #16

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Thanks for the message, Dianna.

There's a good lesson we can learn from the following post/thread by Dr. Bill Crump (October 9 2004 at 1:38 PM:[/color]
[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]The Cost of "Praise" (Contemporary) Services

One of my friends, who is an organist for a local church in Nashville, emailed to me an anecdote that he found on a pipe organ web site. The subject is "Happy Clappy vs. Traditional Organ." While organ music has no place in the C of C, the story nevertheless is thought-provoking:

"Dear List: One of our [organ technician's] recent visit to a local church gleaned the following information which I'm sure will be of interest here. This local church has 3 Sunday services, the first and third a praise band service and the middle service a traditional service with organ. Each of the praise services brings in many more people into the pews than does the traditional service. The good news is that the traditional service brings in more money than the combined two praise services. Obviously the people vote with their hands and not their wallets. Perhaps it is a matter of time before churches realize the cost of the praise services and return to traditional services."

This story confirms what I've heard for several years: In general older, traditional members (including those who are retired and on social security) contribute more to the church coffers than do the throngs of younger members who pile in for contemporary services. One would think that larger numbers of contemporary members would produce larger contributions. That's apparently not the case. These latter folks show up for the unbiblical "fun" and entertainment provided in contemporary services, but they are not as willing to cough up the cash to keep things going. So the financial burden falls primarily and unfairly upon the minority of older traditionalists, many of whom are living on limited incomes.

Determined that they were not about to leave, what would happen if the traditionalists simply withdrew financial support from their unbiblical church? The minister, song leader, and church staff would take a whopping cut in salary, or perhaps be laid off entirely. After all, this is where at least half or more of most church funds go in the first place (I could give you the name a large church that had a $750,000 annual budget, nearly 50% of which went to local in-house "salaries," yet less than 1% went to "benevolence"; the rest went to "building and grounds," "music ministry," "TV ministry," "miscellaneous," and some to "missions").

There's no biblical justification to finance that which is blatantly unbiblical. Perhaps traditionalists should consider twisting the old adage "Money talks" into "Lack of money screams."[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 29th, 2016, 9:51 pm #17

The older generation wants to hold on to the songs they grew up with.
The younger generation wants new songs they can relate to.
The elders try to accommodate both groups by only adding a few songs for the younger generation.
The older generation must bend if they don't want discord in the assembly.
The next generation will want new songs too. Get ready to bend younger generation.
The owl generation sitting there wondering what's going on, never knowing there had been changes brewing.
The poster, who was a part of the older- owl generation, started paying attention to the changes.
The poster only wants to do the will of the Father, as I'm sure some others do too.
The poster has a suggestion: instead of trying to please ourselves, take all songs away that are not
Scripture. Then there will be no more fighting on who gets a say on what will be
Included in the song book. This way Jesus Christ is the referee and teacher then we can learn
the bible and the will of the Father at the same time.


By the way, I also love some of the old songs that are no longer sung. I sing them while I am by myself, but I would rather have scripture imbedded in my mind. I didn't realize the turmoil had been brewing for many years on the music issue. If something causes this much heartache and strife, then the simple solution is to remove it, and start over.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Here's another great message from Dr. Bill Crump (August 7 2004 at 10:57 AM):
[/color]
"Blended Service" Just a Transitional Ploy

Most of us are probably familiar with the old fable about the Arab and the camel. I'm sure there are variations to the story, but it runs along this line: As an Arab slept in his tent in the desert, his camel stood outside in the cold night air. In time, the camel pleaded for the Arab to let him put just his nose inside, because it was so cold outside, and the Arab granted this wish. Soon, the camel pleaded to put just his face inside, which really wouldn't take up any room at all, and to this the Arab also agreed. Then the camel followed with consecutive, but subtle, requests which included his neck, his right foot, his left foot, his front legs, his shoulders, and his waist. Eventually, the camel ever so gradually managed to ease more and more of himself into the tent, so that finally the camel occupied the entire tent, and the Arab had been displaced outside to the cold night air. I think you can see how this analogy applies to change agents who gradually infiltrate traditional churches.

A common ploy used to transform traditional churches into bastions of the unbiblical Change Movement is to introduce the so-called "blended service," which gradually and progressively blends worldly, contemporary elements (rock music, drama, skits, etc.) with traditional worship. But make no mistake in believing that services in such churches will always remain "blended." The vast majority of such churches are only in "transition," for as the camel worked his entire body into the tent, the change agents intend for the contemporary to supplant and replace the traditional completely. The process could take years to accomplish, because all workings must be subtle and gradual.

Here's a case illustration. In previous posts, I've told my story, that I was formerly an organist for nearly four years at a once-traditional Southern Baptist church in Nashville. Some two years into my post there, the thirty-something pastor brought in a contemporary rock band to perform during the services, and their participation at first was limited to one Sunday morning per month. After all, the old traditionalists could only tolerate the ear-splitting cacophony of crashing drums, screeching guitars, and vocal acrobatics for short periods. This was the pastor's decision alone, and the congregation had not been consulted beforehand. When challenged about his decision, the pastor bristled and ordered that the congregation must learn to appreciate ALL musical styles, because (in his biased opinion), "God loves diversity."

This scenario went on for a year or so, then the rock performances increased to two Sunday mornings a month and included one, then two Sunday nights a month -- you get the drift. And the choir, which had theretofore sung traditional pieces, began to drift to more contemporary songs as well, for the minister of music was under the pastor's thumb. Soloists also sang contemporary pieces designed to show off their vocal acrobatic skills, and from time to time, drama and skits appeared during the services. On one occasion, teenage girls performed a dance routine with hand signs to recorded music, which supposedly told a "Christian" story. So I left that changing, entertainment-oriented church, as I've noted earlier. Services there now are almost exclusively contemporary, although a few traditional hymns still appear from time to time. The transitional ploy of a "blended" service has virtually given way to full metamorphosis. But the crucial point of the story is that all this gradual, contemporary change served as a prelude for the church to pursue Rick Warren's "40 Days of Purpose" study in August-September of 2004. Again, instead of consulting the congregation, the pastor successfully railroaded the final "change" element into his church.

All too often, biblically illiterate, spiritually lazy church goers rely on their pastors/ministers to supply all of their spiritual needs, when in fact their trusted "shepherd" could be plotting a major coup, as I've shown above. Only by being biblically literate and ever-watchful will traditional churches be successful in keeping the Change Movement from their doors.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 29th, 2016, 10:20 pm #18

Even worse, they mock the "purple hairs" and it was once reported that they held prayer services for the weeping widows to move on or demise "because it is our time to rule." They attract spiritual butterflies who would be fools to PAY you for silly praise singing when they can lift all of the music they want from the internet. The DEMISERS whine about the DEMISE of churches of Christ and like an addict rather than turning around they just increase the dose. That predestined pattern is well documented because music may be much more addictive than any drug: music INDUCES a tub of junk like endorphins which induce Fight, Flight or a sexual impulse. It is compared to the runner's high".

Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Lŏquor , cātus (quūtus), lŏqui (
I. inf. loquier, Naev. ap. Gell. 1, 24, 2), v. dep. n. and a. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper; Gr. lak-, elakon, laskō], to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation; cf. Quint. 9, 4, 10; 11, 3, 45).

Dianna may have the correct meaning: people learn best when they learn to set their school lesson to music and SING TO THEMSELVES.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 30th, 2016, 12:05 am #19

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I forgot all about the "purple hairs."

But I haven't forgotten about those "silly praise songs," as well as some of those erotic songs.

"Oh, I was made for this to know your tender kiss ... to know this love is mine ... you gave me everything. My feet were made to dance.... You give me more and more, for I was made for you.... You ran to welcome me, I felt your warm embrace.... I was made to love you Jesus. I was made for this." Oops! "Jesus" is mentioned.

"SPEAKING TO YOURSELVES [TO ONE ANOTHER] IN ... HYMNS...."

There are those who think that the author(s) misspoke. They say that it should be:

"SINGING TO YOURSELVES [TO ONE ANOTHER] IN ... HYMNS...."[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 30th, 2016, 12:50 am #20

"Oh, I was made for this to know your tender kiss ... to know this love is mine ... you gave me everything. My feet were made to dance..

http://www.piney.com/Jeff.Walling.Dares ... h.God.html

God's Child (Dance With Me)
(Hey - Hey - Hey - Hey)
(Ho - Ho - Ho - Ho)
Who calls this child to walk on her own?
(Hey - Hey - Hey - Hey)
Who leads her down this treacherous road?
She's dancing to a song we can't hear
(Hey - Hey - Hey - Hey)
Ooh, come on down
Ooh, ooh, ahh, ahh
Ah, set me free (I want to be free) ha!
Come dance with me (dance with me)
Ooh, ahh, with me
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