Church is named after Circe: the harlot in John's Revelation

Church is named after Circe: the harlot in John's Revelation

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 10th, 2012, 10:03 pm #1

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 27th, 2012, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

March 10th, 2012, 11:28 pm #2

It isn't skepticism of defining Psalms....it is people who believe that they ONLY have the ability to interpret Scriptures, and if anyone disagrees with them then they are doomed to hell.
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 10th, 2012, 11:44 pm #3

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
<em>We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.</em>

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matt.26:30

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Mark 14:26

"Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm." Psalm 98:5

Seems Like your "facts" are off by a couple of centuries. Did you make this up too?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 11th, 2012, 3:01 am #4

Take a [1] psalm, and bring hither the [2] timbrel, the pleasant [3] harp with the [4] psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

Psalm NEVER includes an instrument UNLESS it is defined: if you tell little brother and sister singer to PLUCK there is no telling WHAT they will pluck. Psallo EXCLUDES anything but plucking with the FINGER and never with a PLECTRUM. You cannot pluck a flute with your finger.

[1] Sing unto the LORD with the [2] harp; with the harp, and the voice of a [3] psalm." Psalm 98:5

David NEVER sang and played to a "congregation." No one but the cursed, disinherited Levites could make instrumental noise OUTSIDE of the temple: it is defined as SOOTHSAYING with INSTRUMENTS.

Psalm does NOT includes singing OR a harp.

"Speak (opposite to poetry or music) ONE TO ANOTHER using BIBLICAL text.

It takes three words to [1] sing and [2] play and the name of an [3] instrument

Paul said sing and make melody IN THE HEART (that's a place) which is the ANTITHESIS to your preacher who said:

Let the team SING to you NOT using psalms, hymns or spiritual songs
Singing and MAKING MELODY upon a HARP.

See the difference?
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 11th, 2012, 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 11th, 2012, 6:15 am #5

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
<em>What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?</em>

The Greek word is "humneo", meaning "to sing the praise of", "sing hymns to", "to sing a hymn",or "to sing" (Strong's 5214), from "humnos" meaning "a song in the praise of gods, heroes, or conquerors","a sacred song",or "hymn". There is no doubt Paul and Silas were making vocal music. Whether we would recognize it as such 2000 years later is another matter. Melody and harmony as we know them didn't develop into their recognizable forms until well into the eleventh century.
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B
B

March 11th, 2012, 1:01 pm #6

All that matters is that Paul and Silas "sang hymns," melody and harmony aside. Even if there had been no "recognizable" melody as we know it today, theirs was STILL a vocal hymn of praise without instrumental accompaniment. Enough said.
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 11th, 2012, 7:42 pm #7

...which means the passage is not against musical instruments as it is for the use of singing in praise of God.
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B
B

March 11th, 2012, 10:11 pm #8

...which means the passage doesn't mention, advocate, or command the use of, musical instruments. Since singing is the New Testament example of the type of music to use, then adding instruments evokes the sham, man-made rule of "God didn't say not to," which goes above and beyond what is written in the New Testament. Certainly there is no biblical record that Paul and Silas made a habit of carrying around lutes and lyres for the express purpose of accompanying their singing. Or maybe the change agents would desperately argue that the New Testament conveniently "forgot" to mention that.
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Dave
Dave

March 11th, 2012, 10:19 pm #9

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Where does it say that the Apostles sang with the use of instrumental music. The ASSUMPTION would to be that since the Scriptures don't mention the use of instruments then they didn't have them. The assumption SHOULD be that since men used instruments to praise God in the OT then it carried over into the praising of God int the NT. The New Covenant did away with animal sacrifices.....what would that have to do with praising God with instruments?
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March 12th, 2012, 1:11 am #10

Don't assume anything. Don't assume that instruments were "carried over" from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant. The denominationalists and change agents wrongly assume that if the New Testament doesn't say not to use instruments, then instruments are OK. That's the old "God didn't say not to," and it's risky business. The safe thing to do is to abide by the music specified in the New Testament--which is vocal music--and go no further as far as music is concerned.
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