Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 13th, 2012, 8:16 pm #31

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You don't pay much attention to details.

Praying for the dead or confessing sin to the priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches has nothing to do with the passage you quoted [Luke 10:27].

A Catholic can claim as much as you to love God and to love his neighbor but at the same time think and believe that he lives righteously by venerating angels.

A Catholic's logic is similar to yours and Brian's, et al -- looking for a specific "thou shalt not" as in: "thou shalt not operate musical machines in the assembly of saints."

So, the point is that yours is an erroneous assumption as that of a Catholic that where the Scripture does not prohibit [with a "thou shalt not" perform] an activity, such an activity is authorized.

"Non-prohibitive is authoritative" is fallacious by scriptural standards.

CENI (command, example, necessary inference) is a great principle as it eliminates or excludes OPINION, IDEA, SUPPOSITION, DOUBT, IMITATION.

-- There is no command or directive from God to perform IM.
-- There is no example of its use in the assembly of saints.
-- There is no implication that can be derived from Scripture re IM.


On the other hand:

-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's idea.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's opinion.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's supposition.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is imitating ...
-- ... the pagan's music and dancing to worship their gods.
[/color]
Regardless of what the Catholics may do, are you honest enough to admit that there is no prohibition against the use of musical instruments? Are you afraid of being honest?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 13th, 2012, 8:36 pm #32

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Paul and Silas PRAYED a hymn which is a PRAYER.

Notice that a DISCIPLE would never follow the patternism of a scholar or preacher.
First, you quote the whole verse.
Second, you see how words are defined in the Greek or Latin Text
Third, you see how the word is used in the literature of the time.

Don't worry about it: even if you could catch on proving that you have A holy spirit or A good conscience, consciousness or a co-perception, once you have taken the instrumental fork in the road there is no turning back. That is a message well defined in The Book of Enoch and the story of GENUN who is the Babylonian composite of Jubal, Jabal, Tubal-Cain and Naamah (an Ammonitess)

Genesis 4:21 And his brothers name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.

Handle (taphas, tambourine, topheth (hell) manipulate, that is, seize; chiefly to capture, wield; figuratively to use unwarrantably:




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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 14th, 2012, 1:49 am #33

Now you want to rewrite the Bible to fit your deluded babbling? You really are a piece of work, man.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 14th, 2012, 3:59 am #34

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

Quoting from various sources is far from rewriting the Bible. Research is something you can do too. But as of now, you have a lot of catching up to do. I can't help but admire Ken for his voluminous research work. Did you actually read and study his preceding post? Ken quoted several passages from Scripture to support and prove his research. Perhaps you were so overwhelmed that you referred to his research as "deluded babbling" and to his quoting the Bible as rewriting the Bible.

The Douay-Rheims Bible [Catholic] translates Matt. 26:30 as follows: "And a HYMN BEING SAID, they went out unto mount Olivet" [emph. dc]. (And there are other versions with similar translation.)

Barnes' Notes on the Bible has this to say: "The word rendered 'sung a hymn' is a participle, literally meaning 'HYMNING'...."

Clarke's Commentary: "And when they had sung a hymn - [Greek word] means, probably, no more than a kind of recitative reading or chanting."

Now, Brian, Eph. 5:19 states two clauses:

(1) Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs
(2) Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord

Here are a few questions for you and Dave:

(1) Why is (a) "speaking" separate from (b) "singing and making melody"?
(2) What are those in the assembly to speak to one another?
(3) Do you find Eph. 5:19 a bit difficult to comprehend because of the word "speaking"?
(4) Do you find mechanically operating musical devices in the passage?
(5) If you do not, why complicate the passage with your IM verbiage?[/color]
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 14th, 2012, 7:20 am #35

Very subtle but still an ad hominum argument. The question on the floor is where in scripture is there a specific prohibition against musical instruments? So far, no one has provided an answer.
I am not advocating and never have advocated that the church of Christ should include instruments in the worship service. Wouldn't dream of it; it is too divisive an issue.
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Dave
Dave

March 14th, 2012, 12:23 pm #36

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Donnie Posted this....."And when they had sung a hymn - [Greek word] means, probably, no more than a kind of recitative reading or chanting."--which is from Clarke's commentary. Donnie, with all the research out there, the best the researcher came come up with is "probably."

Donnie, probably means "likely" or in other words, he will not give an affirmative yes. You are grasping for anything that would give you the opportunity to continue your self-consuming negative rant. If something doesn't fit your tradition then you look for even a "probably." Donnie, this is what happens......you weren't happy with destroying those Christians that use instrumental music....now you have even gone after those that sing. That is the definition of evil....it consumes you. You remember a while back when I spoke of Ken wanting nothing to do with music in any form, including singing? You defended him and NOW look at where you are?
The part that I don't understand is if you continue to tear down churches of Christ, disciples of Christ, and don't want to sing, then why go to worship at Madison......a church that DOES enjoy participating TOGETHER to worship God and His Son.

Hey Donnie, I am coming to possibly worship at Madison in April......wanna do lunch?

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 14th, 2012, 12:42 pm #37

Very subtle but still an ad hominum argument. The question on the floor is where in scripture is there a specific prohibition against musical instruments? So far, no one has provided an answer.
I am not advocating and never have advocated that the church of Christ should include instruments in the worship service. Wouldn't dream of it; it is too divisive an issue.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

You've already been provided several examples of activities that the Roman Catholic Church practices. There is not a specific "thou shalt not" (SPECIFIC PROHIBITION) for each of them.

Using mechanical music in the assembly falls in that very same category. But your logic matches that of the pope's.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 14th, 2012, 12:53 pm #38

Donnie Posted this....."And when they had sung a hymn - [Greek word] means, probably, no more than a kind of recitative reading or chanting."--which is from Clarke's commentary. Donnie, with all the research out there, the best the researcher came come up with is "probably."

Donnie, probably means "likely" or in other words, he will not give an affirmative yes. You are grasping for anything that would give you the opportunity to continue your self-consuming negative rant. If something doesn't fit your tradition then you look for even a "probably." Donnie, this is what happens......you weren't happy with destroying those Christians that use instrumental music....now you have even gone after those that sing. That is the definition of evil....it consumes you. You remember a while back when I spoke of Ken wanting nothing to do with music in any form, including singing? You defended him and NOW look at where you are?
The part that I don't understand is if you continue to tear down churches of Christ, disciples of Christ, and don't want to sing, then why go to worship at Madison......a church that DOES enjoy participating TOGETHER to worship God and His Son.

Hey Donnie, I am coming to possibly worship at Madison in April......wanna do lunch?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I was showing you the difference between "speaking" and "singing." A third grader understands that.

I am sure there are many other sources out there that prove the truth concerning "hymning." Certainly, a hymn can be read or spoken as a hymn consists of teaching the word of Christ that is to "dwell in you richly."

Just follow the teaching from the Scripture and what churches of Christ believe, and you will do well serving as an elder of your congregation. So far, you've proven yourself as anti-church of Christ.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

March 14th, 2012, 3:16 pm #39

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Does that mean.....no lunch?
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Racnor
Racnor

March 14th, 2012, 4:50 pm #40

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
I really don't have a "horse in this race" but could someone explain to me who is "out on a limb" here? Is it the Mainline Church of Christ or Concerned Members? Is this just opinions of men or a real Church doctrine issue?
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