Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 12th, 2012, 9:15 pm #21

Regardless of what the Catholics may do, are you honest enough to admit that there is no specific prohibition against musical instruments? If not, why not?
Why not give some hing that there is a command, example or remote inference that God COMMANDED instruments when God in Christ ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ to be EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or elevated form of speech. Disciples of Christ COULD NEVER impose instrumental noise when Christ comes to be out ONLY teacher when the elders teacht that which has been taught or "that which is written for our learning?"

Martin Luther and all historic Scholars prior to the Disciples c 1878 knew there was nothing to authorize instruments in the School of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/RefMLuthRom15.html

53. Service to God is praise of him. It must be free and voluntary, at table, in the chamber, cellar, garret, in house or field, in all places, with all persons, at all times.

Whosoever teaches otherwise is no less guilty of falsehood than the Pope and the devil himself.

But how shall there be with us honor and praise of God, true service to him, when we neither love him nor receive his blessings? And how shall we love him when we do not know him and his blessings?

And how shall we know him and his blessings when no word is preached concerning them
and when the Gospel is left to lie under the table?
Where the Gospel is not in evidence, knowledge of God is an impossibility.
Then to love and praise him is likewise impossible.

As a further consequence it is necessarily impossible for divine service to exist.

Even if all the choristers were one chorister, all the priests one priest,
all the monks one monk, all the churches one church,
all the bells one bell; in brief if all the foolish services offered to God in the institutions,
churches and cloisters were a hundred thousand times greater and more numerous than they are,
what does God care for such carnivals and juggling?

54. Therefore, God complains most of the Jews in the second chapter of Micah,

because they silenced his praise, while at the same time,
they piped, blared and moaned like we do.
True divine service of praise cannot be established with revenues,
nor be circumscribed by laws and statutes.
High and low festivals have nothing to do with it.
It emanates from the Gospel, and certainly is as often rendered by a poor,
rustic servant as by a great bishop. [51]


So, maybe you will tell us why YOU want to silence the Word of God commanded to be PREACHED by being READ and discussed to make a place for the singy-clappys always marked with a gender bleed from all recorded history.

And why you think people can escape being cast alive into the Lake of Fire with sorcerers and dogs when John identified the "singers, speakers, instrument players and all religious technicians as SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. Scripture makes these "old spirits" who when they "speak on their own" are called son s of the devil.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 12th, 2012, 9:33 pm #22

Luke 10
27 He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Then Donnie Cruz asks.....

Does the Scripture state, "thou shalt not"
1. Venerate angels and dead saints?
2. Worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?
3. Pray for the dead?
4. Kiss the Pope's feet?
5. Confess sin to the priest?
6. Believe that the pope is infallible?
7. ... etc., etc., etc.?

Yes Donnie, in reference to Luke 10:27 the Scriptures DO say "thou shalt not" to all 7; therefore rending all 7 points to be sinful.
Now, show a likewise Scripture that states that instrumental music is sinful as Luke 10 does for all 7 of your points.
Jesus had some other things to say: you cannot love anyone if you imitate the pattern of the Devil

But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. Luke 10:14

The king/queen of Tyre was INDWELLED by Lucifer who was the "singing and harp playing prostitute."

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze.28:13

frmen 4: tibia tenuis simplexque foramine pauco,Hor. Ars 203

Hor. Ars 203 Let a play which would be inquired after, and though seen, represented anew, be neither shorter nor longer than the fifth act. Neither let a god interfere, unless a difficulty worthy a god's unraveling should happen; nor let a fourth person be officious to speak.1

Let the chorus2 sustain the part and manly3 character of an actor: nor let them sing any thing between the acts which is not conducive to, and fitly coherent with, the main design. Let them both patronize the good,4 and give them friendly advice, and regulate the passionate, and love to appease thou who swell [with rage]:5 let them praise the repast of a short meal, the salutary effects of justice, laws, and peace with her open gates; let them conceal what is told to them in confidence,6 and supplicate and implore the gods that prosperity may return to the wretched, and abandon the haughty.

The flute,7 (not as now, begirt with brass and emulous of the trumpet, but) slender and of simple form, with few stops, was of service to accompany and assist the chorus

2 The chorus was not introduced between the acts, merely to relieve the audience, but had a part in the play, and concurred with the other actors to carry on the plot, and support the probability of it. The Choriphaeus, or first person of the chorus, entered in the acts, and spoke for all those of whom the chorus was composed;


That describes the Lucifer worship: she/he/it was the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Isa 23:15

Which goes: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:16

And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the Lord will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. Isa 23:17


Lucifer is ZOE in her modern incarnation while HALAL is the "praise" song of David making himself vile.


Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 13th, 2012, 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 12th, 2012, 9:41 pm #23

...which means the passage doesn't mention, advocate, or command the use of, musical instruments. Since singing is the New Testament example of the type of music to use, then adding instruments evokes the sham, man-made rule of "God didn't say not to," which goes above and beyond what is written in the New Testament. Certainly there is no biblical record that Paul and Silas made a habit of carrying around lutes and lyres for the express purpose of accompanying their singing. Or maybe the change agents would desperately argue that the New Testament conveniently "forgot" to mention that.

********************************************************

"B", surely Paul and Silas were equipped with the standard instrument aid bag consisting of a pitch pipe, tuning fork and PA system?
Psallo is the FOUNDATION upon which the NACC built their attempt to force churches of Christ to have "unity with them." Unity always meant "conformity" or Affirmation.

Psallo means pluck with the fingers and never with a plectrum: Tom Burgess is another authority for plucking connected to instruments. Unfortunately all of the plucking+A+harp is connected with older males-like Alexander the Great--plucking the lyre too skilled for his father's taste in trying to seduce a younger male.

The Holy Spirit and Paul are mocked when people blame "them" for not knowing as much as a school boy at the time. ALWAYS when psallowing or blowing an instrument there are dedicated words. There is one compound word for EVERY possible instrument and even number of strings and style of plucking.

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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 13th, 2012, 1:13 am #24

Jesus had some other things to say: you cannot love anyone if you imitate the pattern of the Devil

But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. Luke 10:14

The king/queen of Tyre was INDWELLED by Lucifer who was the "singing and harp playing prostitute."

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Eze.28:13

frmen 4: tibia tenuis simplexque foramine pauco,Hor. Ars 203

Hor. Ars 203 Let a play which would be inquired after, and though seen, represented anew, be neither shorter nor longer than the fifth act. Neither let a god interfere, unless a difficulty worthy a god's unraveling should happen; nor let a fourth person be officious to speak.1

Let the chorus2 sustain the part and manly3 character of an actor: nor let them sing any thing between the acts which is not conducive to, and fitly coherent with, the main design. Let them both patronize the good,4 and give them friendly advice, and regulate the passionate, and love to appease thou who swell [with rage]:5 let them praise the repast of a short meal, the salutary effects of justice, laws, and peace with her open gates; let them conceal what is told to them in confidence,6 and supplicate and implore the gods that prosperity may return to the wretched, and abandon the haughty.

The flute,7 (not as now, begirt with brass and emulous of the trumpet, but) slender and of simple form, with few stops, was of service to accompany and assist the chorus

2 The chorus was not introduced between the acts, merely to relieve the audience, but had a part in the play, and concurred with the other actors to carry on the plot, and support the probability of it. The Choriphaeus, or first person of the chorus, entered in the acts, and spoke for all those of whom the chorus was composed;


That describes the Lucifer worship: she/he/it was the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that Tyre shall be forgotten seventy years, according to the days of one king: after the end of seventy years shall Tyre sing as an harlot. Isa 23:15

Which goes: Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered. Isa 23:16

And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the Lord will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth. Isa 23:17


Lucifer is ZOE in her modern incarnation while HALAL is the "praise" song of David making himself vile.


This is relevant how?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 13th, 2012, 2:27 am #25

Scholars are certain that when one read or recited something poetic or addresssed to the "gods" it was called singing: when Moses sang the song of Moses he RECITED it. Further, singing was using the normal inflections of the human voice. Also from this reference:

The case I take to have been this: the tibia, as being most proper to accompany the declamation of the acts, cantanti succinere, was constantly employed, as well in the Roman tragedy as comedy

The other is still more express. In his piece entitled "Orator," speaking of the negligence of the Roman writers in respect of numbers, he observes, that there were even many passages in their tragedies, which, unless the tibia played to them, could not be distinguished from mere prose:
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Dave
Dave

March 13th, 2012, 3:29 am #26

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Ken,
You said "Scholars are certain that when one read or recited something poetic or addresssed to the "gods" it was called singing: when Moses sang the song of Moses he RECITED it. Further, singing was using the normal inflections of the human voice."

That is not true and you know it. I am not asking you to show proof because you have already proven it, and NOTHING that you have given here, at piney.com, or anywhere else has proven that.
You see why you get such a reputation.
You fit in nicely here with this evil and wicked consortium.

Proverbs 5:22
The evil deeds of the wicked ensnare them; the cords of their sins hold them fast.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 13th, 2012, 3:45 am #27

Scholars are certain that when one read or recited something poetic or addresssed to the "gods" it was called singing: when Moses sang the song of Moses he RECITED it. Further, singing was using the normal inflections of the human voice. Also from this reference:

The case I take to have been this: the tibia, as being most proper to accompany the declamation of the acts, cantanti succinere, was constantly employed, as well in the Roman tragedy as comedy

The other is still more express. In his piece entitled "Orator," speaking of the negligence of the Roman writers in respect of numbers, he observes, that there were even many passages in their tragedies, which, unless the tibia played to them, could not be distinguished from mere prose:
You don't know what you're talking about. You are making this up.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 13th, 2012, 8:47 am #28

Luke 10
27 He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Then Donnie Cruz asks.....

Does the Scripture state, "thou shalt not"
1. Venerate angels and dead saints?
2. Worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?
3. Pray for the dead?
4. Kiss the Pope's feet?
5. Confess sin to the priest?
6. Believe that the pope is infallible?
7. ... etc., etc., etc.?

Yes Donnie, in reference to Luke 10:27 the Scriptures DO say "thou shalt not" to all 7; therefore rending all 7 points to be sinful.
Now, show a likewise Scripture that states that instrumental music is sinful as Luke 10 does for all 7 of your points.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You don't pay much attention to details.

Praying for the dead or confessing sin to the priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches has nothing to do with the passage you quoted [Luke 10:27].

A Catholic can claim as much as you to love God and to love his neighbor but at the same time think and believe that he lives righteously by venerating angels.

A Catholic's logic is similar to yours and Brian's, et al -- looking for a specific "thou shalt not" as in: "thou shalt not operate musical machines in the assembly of saints."

So, the point is that yours is an erroneous assumption as that of a Catholic that where the Scripture does not prohibit [with a "thou shalt not" perform] an activity, such an activity is authorized.

"Non-prohibitive is authoritative" is fallacious by scriptural standards.

CENI (command, example, necessary inference) is a great principle as it eliminates or excludes OPINION, IDEA, SUPPOSITION, DOUBT, IMITATION.

-- There is no command or directive from God to perform IM.
-- There is no example of its use in the assembly of saints.
-- There is no implication that can be derived from Scripture re IM.


On the other hand:

-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's idea.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's opinion.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's supposition.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is imitating ...
-- ... the pagan's music and dancing to worship their gods.
[/color]
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Dave
Dave

March 13th, 2012, 12:11 pm #29

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Donnie, you said "Praying for the dead or confessing sin to the priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches has nothing to do with the passage you quoted [Luke 10:27]."

Donnie, you and the gang here can claim anything you want at anytime here, but the Scriptures have shown you to be wrong time and time again.

If you love the Lord your God with all your heart (Luke 10:27) then you wouldn't allow another man (Catholic priest) to take the place of Jesus and His (and His alone) ability to wipe those sins away.


As far as the rest of your statement it is more of the same false rhetoric.
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 13th, 2012, 8:13 pm #30

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You don't pay much attention to details.

Praying for the dead or confessing sin to the priest as the Roman Catholic Church teaches has nothing to do with the passage you quoted [Luke 10:27].

A Catholic can claim as much as you to love God and to love his neighbor but at the same time think and believe that he lives righteously by venerating angels.

A Catholic's logic is similar to yours and Brian's, et al -- looking for a specific "thou shalt not" as in: "thou shalt not operate musical machines in the assembly of saints."

So, the point is that yours is an erroneous assumption as that of a Catholic that where the Scripture does not prohibit [with a "thou shalt not" perform] an activity, such an activity is authorized.

"Non-prohibitive is authoritative" is fallacious by scriptural standards.

CENI (command, example, necessary inference) is a great principle as it eliminates or excludes OPINION, IDEA, SUPPOSITION, DOUBT, IMITATION.

-- There is no command or directive from God to perform IM.
-- There is no example of its use in the assembly of saints.
-- There is no implication that can be derived from Scripture re IM.


On the other hand:

-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's idea.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's opinion.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is man's supposition.
-- Operating musical devices to worship God is imitating ...
-- ... the pagan's music and dancing to worship their gods.
[/color]
CENI is invalid as a hermeneutical technique. It allows proof-texting.
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