Church is named after Circe: the harlot in John's Revelation

Anonymous
Anonymous

March 12th, 2012, 2:04 am #11

All that to say the passage supports the use of singing.
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Dave
Dave

March 12th, 2012, 2:45 am #12

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
The safe thing to do? Hide your talent in the ground....know what I mean? You who berates those who ASSUME yet you promote CENI? What do you consider to be Necessary Inference? People throw rocks from glass houses and promote double standards.
Know what I mean B?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 12th, 2012, 3:06 am #13

Where does it say that the Apostles sang with the use of instrumental music. The ASSUMPTION would to be that since the Scriptures don't mention the use of instruments then they didn't have them. The assumption SHOULD be that since men used instruments to praise God in the OT then it carried over into the praising of God int the NT. The New Covenant did away with animal sacrifices.....what would that have to do with praising God with instruments?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You are correct in that Christians are under the new covenant and no longer observe the law of Moses and offer blood sacrifices and burnt offerings.

Why would you ASSUME that musical instruments and dancing were part of the old covenant, but weren't done away with?

The pagans also loved musical instruments and dancing -- probably more so than "followers of God" who WERE NOT COMMANDED to praise God with instruments.

Truth is that instrumental music and dancing (Psalm 150) were NEVER part of the OLD COVENANT. Two fallacies in your assumption:

(1) FALLACY: That praising God with instruments was carried over into NT.
(2) FALLACY: That which was NOT part of the OLD could be carried over to the NEW.[/color]
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B
B

March 12th, 2012, 3:16 am #14

All that to say the passage supports the use of singing.
All that to remind folks not to add to a specific command in the New Testament, which denominationalists do all the time when they implement instrumental music.
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B
B

March 12th, 2012, 3:28 am #15

The safe thing to do? Hide your talent in the ground....know what I mean? You who berates those who ASSUME yet you promote CENI? What do you consider to be Necessary Inference? People throw rocks from glass houses and promote double standards.
Know what I mean B?
There's not one word in the New Testament stating that if we have a "talent" for playing a musical instrument, then we are to exhibit it in worship. That's another man-made assumption the denominationalists and denominational sympathizers make, and they'll keep making that assumption until Doom's Day. People must realize that there is simply no New Testament basis for using musical instruments in Christian worship on earth. Every rationale for doing so man has concocted to satisfy his desire for worldly pleasure in worship.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 12th, 2012, 3:56 am #16

Honesty compels us to admit, however, that there is no specific prohibition against it.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 12th, 2012, 5:15 am #17

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]If you rely on SPECIFIC "thou shalt not" [prohibitive] directives as means by which God or the Holy Scripture authorizes, then, you are in agreement with the pope and the Roman Catholic Church regarding its teachings.

Does the Scripture state, "thou shalt not"

1. Venerate angels and dead saints?
2. Worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?
3. Pray for the dead?
4. Kiss the Pope's feet?
5. Confess sin to the priest?
6. Believe that the pope is infallible?
7. ... etc., etc., etc.?[/color]
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 12th, 2012, 9:21 am #18

Regardless of what the Catholics may do, are you honest enough to admit that there is no specific prohibition against musical instruments? If not, why not?
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Dave
Dave

March 12th, 2012, 4:12 pm #19

The word "church" does not appear in any Biblical text. While the Catholics may have latched onto "kurios" or some such word the result is a hierarchy of absolute control. Most churches have used the word Circe or Kirke when there was no Biblical evidence to do so and ALL of the literature at the time that ekklesia or synagogue was used was perhaps PROPHETIC of the churches which have become Circles (as in witchcraft) or Circuses as in performance music and drama.

Circe is well documented in the Classics and people did not begin to come out of the Dark Ages until they became students of the Classics which very often had Egyptian and Hebrew roots.

Here is a short bit to determine whether your KIRKE is really engaged in witchcraft or sorcery (Revelation 18 shows the marks). Christ in Isaiah 30 and John shows that these are the identifying marks of those who will be cast alive into the lake of fire: perhaps they are being consumed by their own breath (spirit).







What about scholars and preachers and occupational praise teams who claim that God commanded instrumental praise when there is no such evidence. Proof cannot change self-willl but the fact is that no one COULD sing any of the commanded RESOURCE in a tuneful sense: even in the more "speaking than singing styles" noone ventured to IMPOSE singing as an ACT (work) before the fourth century.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... Songs.html



I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
Luke 10
27 He answered, Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Then Donnie Cruz asks.....

Does the Scripture state, "thou shalt not"
1. Venerate angels and dead saints?
2. Worship the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?
3. Pray for the dead?
4. Kiss the Pope's feet?
5. Confess sin to the priest?
6. Believe that the pope is infallible?
7. ... etc., etc., etc.?

Yes Donnie, in reference to Luke 10:27 the Scriptures DO say "thou shalt not" to all 7; therefore rending all 7 points to be sinful.
Now, show a likewise Scripture that states that instrumental music is sinful as Luke 10 does for all 7 of your points.
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Racnor
Racnor

March 12th, 2012, 8:25 pm #20

...which means the passage doesn't mention, advocate, or command the use of, musical instruments. Since singing is the New Testament example of the type of music to use, then adding instruments evokes the sham, man-made rule of "God didn't say not to," which goes above and beyond what is written in the New Testament. Certainly there is no biblical record that Paul and Silas made a habit of carrying around lutes and lyres for the express purpose of accompanying their singing. Or maybe the change agents would desperately argue that the New Testament conveniently "forgot" to mention that.
...which means the passage doesn't mention, advocate, or command the use of, musical instruments. Since singing is the New Testament example of the type of music to use, then adding instruments evokes the sham, man-made rule of "God didn't say not to," which goes above and beyond what is written in the New Testament. Certainly there is no biblical record that Paul and Silas made a habit of carrying around lutes and lyres for the express purpose of accompanying their singing. Or maybe the change agents would desperately argue that the New Testament conveniently "forgot" to mention that.

********************************************************

"B", surely Paul and Silas were equipped with the standard instrument aid bag consisting of a pitch pipe, tuning fork and PA system?
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