John Rebman
John Rebman

July 15th, 2005, 6:11 pm #41

Romans 10:7-12 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[a]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[c] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

This wonderful verse breaks down why we are saved. The change of heart is the requirement for justification, confession before men is necessary unto salvation. But, it isnt the work of a change agent, instead the Word of God.

Yes Acts chapter 2 is clear, but Romans 10 is also clear.
Reducing Baptism to a process, instead of seeing that the change of heart
is why the folks were Baptised leaves so much out of the radical life change that is repentance of sin and heart.

They were lining up to be baptised because they were clearly told the One they had rejected was the one who had been prophesied to be the Messiah.
I'm sure those folks never pointed to their baptism, but by being baptised were pointing to the One who Saves, the Christ.

Maybe the reason some leave is that their Church focus on THEMSELVES and their processes, and how they are the only ones, more an they focus on the risen Savior. Some leave because they actually have been born again, and dont find any spiritual depth where they are.






Romans 10: 7-12 is a wonderful text, but it is not the core of the doctrine of "Justification."
The question must be asked:
Does biblical justification make us righteous or does it declare us righteous when we, in fact, are not?

The Bible teaches that there are two possible ways to be just. Romans 10:1-3; Philippans 3:9.
a. By law. To be declared righteous when and because one actually is righteous. This was the righteousness of Christ.
b. By grace. To be declared righteous even though we are not and can never hope to be. Romans 4:5.

The Bible teaches that the GROUND of justification, the DEATH of Jesus (Romans 5:9; 3:21-26). The righteousness of Christ was not only His perfectly sinless life, it culminates in His perfect obedience to the Father in voluntary submission to the cross on our behalf.

The announcement of this way of justification is the heart or foundation of the Gospel (Romans 1:16,17; 1 Cor. 1:18-25). In this plan He takes our sins (on the cross) and we take His righteousness (2 Cor 5:21).

The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to the obedient sinner (James 2:23,24). This righteousness that has been attributed to us in Christ must be understood as the way God see us in Christ, not as what we actually are.
To this I might add to the finger pointers in the church of Christ who have become so self righteous, that in their own mind have seated themselves at the Lord's right hand: take note of the term "imputed righteousness!"

Acts 22:16 must be understood in the light of Old Testament ceremonial purification. When ceremonial sprinkling was done, it did not miraculously change the person, only his standing before God and the people.

The Bible teaches: the MEANS of our justification, FAITH, (Romans 3:28; 4:3).
Faith is the sinner's response. The act of faith does not contribute to the righteousness that makes us acceptable to a righteous God.
That is Christ's alone. The reception of the free gift does not detract from its gracious character.

The ESSENCE of our justification, GRACE (Romans 3:24,25;5:2).
GRACE is a state we are in (in the mind of God).
The Christian life is an expression of FAITH. and is a means of expressing gratitude to God for His gift.

We need to keep in mind: Salvation is ever by grace!
If we live the most consistant Christian life possible, God would still not owe us a thing.
We are made free from not only the Old Testament Law, but we are free from salvation by law in general.
We are free from self-centeredness.
We are moved, in the principle, from the realm of "having to" to that of "get to."
Salvation is free to us, but not free to God (1 Peter 1:18,19).
JR
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

July 16th, 2005, 9:54 pm #42

An army of younger church members are clamoring for change in the worship, faith and practices of our churches. They have naught but criticism for the efforts of the past and are certain they have discovered a far superior way of "doing church" as they are fond of saying. They leave the impression on immature and gullible disciples that those of us over 50 are stubborn, close-minded and impervious to change, no matter how beneficial it might be. In this they are less than honest. Some ultra-conservative types might well be that intractable, but for the majority of us it is not change that we reject, it is unlawful departure from God's authorized Word and way.

--- We are willing to change such things as the hour, the length or the order of our services, but we are not willing to change the nature and substance of them. God has specified singing, praying, communing, offering and instruction as acceptable aspects of his worship.

--- We are willing to try new songs or new hymnals, but not a new kind of music. Only singing did the Spirt authorize (Eph. 5:19). Instruments, other than the voice and heart, we will not, we cannot accept.

--- We are willing to consider different methods of observing a communion service, but we cannot mix the sacred meal with a common meal (I Cor. 11:20-22). Nor can we observe the feast on a day not ordained by God (Acts 20:7).

--- We are willing to accept any or all Biblical names for the church, but we will not brook those who seek to dismiss or discredit the Biblical name "church of Christ" used by Paul (Rom. 16:16). It is never wrong to give due glory and honor to Christ the founder and head of the church.

--- We are willing to change our methods of evangelism but not the gospel message given by Christ. Methods flourish and grow obsolete but the message is divine, perfect and eternal (Rom. 1:16).

--- We can tolerate those who prefer other reputable translations than the King James Version but not those who reject the authority of the Bible.

--- We can adapt to modern improvements in our meeting houses but we cannot be party to those who would "modernize" the church which Christ built, which is revealed in Scripture.

--- We can admit our failures to measure up to the divine pattern for faith and practice, but we can never admit the church which Christ built is any less than perfect.

--- We can preach salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), but we will never be able to preach salvation by grace alone or faith alone (Jas. 2:24).

Change in non-essentials, in matters of judgment and expediency our people have been making for the last 200 years. Changes in the God-given faith and practice of Christianity apostates have been engaging in for the same period of time. Sydney Rigdon's changes took him into Mormonism. Dr. John Thomas' changes led him into the Christadelphians. The changes of instrumental music and missionary societies took their promoters into Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination Changes regarding the doctrine of the kingdom of Christ and His return lead Robert H. Boll into Premillennialism. Changes in the teaching of the role of miraculous gifts of the Spirit led Don Finto and the Belmont Church of Christ into Pentecostalism. Changes in the government of the church and the doctrine of Christian liberty led Chuck Lucas and Kip McKeen of the Boston church into the International Church of Christ cult. The changes proposed by the "change agents" centered in Abilene, Texas are leading toward a new denominational body with which we want no part.

JHW
<font size=4 color=indigo>
SCENES IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH
</font>

<font size=3 color=indigo face=times new roman>To help readers understand what is currently happening to our brotherhood, we offer a bit of historical review. A. W. Fortune, preacher, historian and professor of the liberal wing of the restoration movement, published a small book in 1924. It was entitled, The Origin and Development of the Disciples. From this book (pp. 158-168), we have gleaned the following important information. Keep in mind that these quotations are from a spokesman for the liberal point of view.

Scene One looks back to the beginning and early days of our "Back to the Bible movement."
  • "Their slogan–‘where the Scriptures speak, we speak' led them to criticize those practices which seemed to them unscriptural."
  • "They did not regard themselves as a new denomination; they considered themselves to be a movement for the restoration of the New Testament Church..."
  • "They were convinced that union could only come by the restoration of the New Testament church..."
  • "They felt they had in a measure restored the apostate church and they regarded themselves as a peculiar people."
  • "They refused to co-operate with the denominations and their call to the individual was to come out from among them."
  • "At first there was a period of comparative uniformity in doctrine."
  • "For a long time the music of the churches consisted entirely of congregational singing."
  • "Instrumental music was not thought of in connection with the worship of the church."
  • "A characteristic feature fo the worship of the Disciples for many years was simplicity and lack of formality. The service was spontaneous and free from all ritualistic elements.”
Scene Two looks at how progressive changes resulted in apostasy and abandonment of the restoration concept:
  • "During the last fifty years the spirit of co-operation with other communions has been growing among Disciples."
  • A "growing spirit of toleration has been very pronounced..."
  • "They have co-operated wit the other communions in religious gatherings and evangelistic campaigns."
  • "Union cannot come until the churches abandon the traditional elements that divide."
  • "Disciples have had no creed which...has made it comparatively easy for them to change."
  • "Congregations were divided over this (the organ) question, and it was an important contributing factor to the final division of the church."
  • "The controversies over missionary societies and the use of the organ in worship were manifestations of a different attitude of mind"
  • "Those who insisted on a ‘thus saith the Lord' for the missionary society and the organ were literalists in all their doctrinal interpretations. Those who favored these expedients in worship and in the management of the affairs of the church had a more liberal attitude in their interpretation of doctrine generally."
  • "The tendency of the Disciples at the present time to towards a greater liberality In the interpretation of religion."
  • "The Bible is emphasized as the spiritual guide of the race rather than as a code of laws."
  • "Gradually the churches adopted instrumental music."
  • "With the introduction of special music, trained singers were sought for the choir."
Scene Three: Readers are urged to take a careful look at the congregation of which they are a part. Into which of these two categories does you congregation fit? Until the last 25 years all churches of Christ were very similar to those in Scene One. With the emergence of the change movement, more and more of our churches are more like those in Scene Two. In the early days faithful brethren would have said to those in worldly, apostate churches, "Wherefore come ye out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (II Cor. 6:17). So do we. </font>

___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 17th, 2005, 3:12 pm #43

Romans 10: 7-12 is a wonderful text, but it is not the core of the doctrine of "Justification."
The question must be asked:
Does biblical justification make us righteous or does it declare us righteous when we, in fact, are not?

The Bible teaches that there are two possible ways to be just. Romans 10:1-3; Philippans 3:9.
a. By law. To be declared righteous when and because one actually is righteous. This was the righteousness of Christ.
b. By grace. To be declared righteous even though we are not and can never hope to be. Romans 4:5.

The Bible teaches that the GROUND of justification, the DEATH of Jesus (Romans 5:9; 3:21-26). The righteousness of Christ was not only His perfectly sinless life, it culminates in His perfect obedience to the Father in voluntary submission to the cross on our behalf.

The announcement of this way of justification is the heart or foundation of the Gospel (Romans 1:16,17; 1 Cor. 1:18-25). In this plan He takes our sins (on the cross) and we take His righteousness (2 Cor 5:21).

The righteousness of Jesus is imputed to the obedient sinner (James 2:23,24). This righteousness that has been attributed to us in Christ must be understood as the way God see us in Christ, not as what we actually are.
To this I might add to the finger pointers in the church of Christ who have become so self righteous, that in their own mind have seated themselves at the Lord's right hand: take note of the term "imputed righteousness!"

Acts 22:16 must be understood in the light of Old Testament ceremonial purification. When ceremonial sprinkling was done, it did not miraculously change the person, only his standing before God and the people.

The Bible teaches: the MEANS of our justification, FAITH, (Romans 3:28; 4:3).
Faith is the sinner's response. The act of faith does not contribute to the righteousness that makes us acceptable to a righteous God.
That is Christ's alone. The reception of the free gift does not detract from its gracious character.

The ESSENCE of our justification, GRACE (Romans 3:24,25;5:2).
GRACE is a state we are in (in the mind of God).
The Christian life is an expression of FAITH. and is a means of expressing gratitude to God for His gift.

We need to keep in mind: Salvation is ever by grace!
If we live the most consistant Christian life possible, God would still not owe us a thing.
We are made free from not only the Old Testament Law, but we are free from salvation by law in general.
We are free from self-centeredness.
We are moved, in the principle, from the realm of "having to" to that of "get to."
Salvation is free to us, but not free to God (1 Peter 1:18,19).
JR
Ours is a “pick-and-choose” society. On a restaurant menu, we may choose between Combo #1, Combo #2, and Combo #3. When purchasing insurance, we may select Plan A, Plan B, or Plan C. Even the tests in our schools often are of the multiple-choice type: from four or five possibilities, “Choose the single best answer.” Likewise, society demands to choose which portions of the New Testament it will embrace and which portions it will reject. A typical “pick-and-choose” biblical subject is salvation.

Certain New Testament verses stipulate that we are saved by faith and God’s grace; nothing else is mentioned. So people reason that all we need do is “believe,” and God’s grace will save us; we need do nothing more. But then other problematic verses mention only that repentance is necessary for salvation. Then other stubborn verses demand that we make a public confession of Jesus as Lord in order to be saved. And still really annoying verses link baptism with salvation. So many different verses related to salvation, and all with different requirements for salvation! So what shall we do? Should we follow ALL of these “legalistic” requirements, or should we take a survey (a popular church pastime these days), decide which ones are the most important, and only follow them?

It seems that many folks play numbers games with the New Testament and take the so-called “majority of verses” route or “majority rules” route. It’s a fact that the overwhelming majority of “salvation” verses in the New Testament mention only faith or grace and nothing else. Reasoning that faith and grace must be the most important aspects of salvation, people take it upon themselves to minimize repentance, confession, and baptism. And since baptism seems to be the most offensive requirement, baptism is frequently dumped entirely. What many people refuse to acknowledge is that each and every verse in the New Testament carries equal weight, whether it occurs only once or a million times.

In the Gospels, Jesus demands a minimum of four things from us before He will save us (representative KJV verses provided):

1. That we believe (have faith) in Him (John 11:25-26).
2. That we repent (Luke 13:3).
3. That we make public confession of Him as Lord (Matt. 10:32-33).
4. That we are baptized (Mark 16:16).

Jesus never gave us an option to “pick and choose” which of these requirements for salvation we may embrace and which we may dump. Jesus also never said that He would first save us, then we could follow the above commands. They are ALL mandatory from the very outset, simply by virtue of the fact that Jesus says they are. Some will say, “Baptism is a work, and works of themselves cannot save; being dunked in a pool of water cannot save.” True, no physical act of itself can save, but if Jesus says that we must be baptized to be saved, why rebel against Him? Don't scream, don't wail, don't beat your fists together, and don't try to make ridiculous excuses. Just trust Him to be right, accept His commands as given, obey them, and rejoice! It is the submission, the obedience, the willingness to follow His commands, whatever they are, that Jesus desires from us. Jesus is willing to save us by His grace, but only if we are willing to obey Him completely; not only in the four commands above, but in all things whatsoever He has commanded us (Matt 28:20 KJV).

So whenever people come on this web site or anywhere else and imply that only faith and nothing else is necessary to receive Christ’s grace, they speak falsely and would lead us away from Christ’s true doctrine. Mark and avoid those in the Change Movement who would soften or discount portions of the New Testament to make it more attractive and acceptable to the world (Romans 16:17-18 KJV).
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John Rebman
John Rebman

July 17th, 2005, 5:45 pm #44

<font size=4 color=indigo>
SCENES IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH
</font>

<font size=3 color=indigo face=times new roman>To help readers understand what is currently happening to our brotherhood, we offer a bit of historical review. A. W. Fortune, preacher, historian and professor of the liberal wing of the restoration movement, published a small book in 1924. It was entitled, The Origin and Development of the Disciples. From this book (pp. 158-168), we have gleaned the following important information. Keep in mind that these quotations are from a spokesman for the liberal point of view.

Scene One looks back to the beginning and early days of our "Back to the Bible movement."
  • "Their slogan–‘where the Scriptures speak, we speak' led them to criticize those practices which seemed to them unscriptural."
  • "They did not regard themselves as a new denomination; they considered themselves to be a movement for the restoration of the New Testament Church..."
  • "They were convinced that union could only come by the restoration of the New Testament church..."
  • "They felt they had in a measure restored the apostate church and they regarded themselves as a peculiar people."
  • "They refused to co-operate with the denominations and their call to the individual was to come out from among them."
  • "At first there was a period of comparative uniformity in doctrine."
  • "For a long time the music of the churches consisted entirely of congregational singing."
  • "Instrumental music was not thought of in connection with the worship of the church."
  • "A characteristic feature fo the worship of the Disciples for many years was simplicity and lack of formality. The service was spontaneous and free from all ritualistic elements.”
Scene Two looks at how progressive changes resulted in apostasy and abandonment of the restoration concept:
  • "During the last fifty years the spirit of co-operation with other communions has been growing among Disciples."
  • A "growing spirit of toleration has been very pronounced..."
  • "They have co-operated wit the other communions in religious gatherings and evangelistic campaigns."
  • "Union cannot come until the churches abandon the traditional elements that divide."
  • "Disciples have had no creed which...has made it comparatively easy for them to change."
  • "Congregations were divided over this (the organ) question, and it was an important contributing factor to the final division of the church."
  • "The controversies over missionary societies and the use of the organ in worship were manifestations of a different attitude of mind"
  • "Those who insisted on a ‘thus saith the Lord' for the missionary society and the organ were literalists in all their doctrinal interpretations. Those who favored these expedients in worship and in the management of the affairs of the church had a more liberal attitude in their interpretation of doctrine generally."
  • "The tendency of the Disciples at the present time to towards a greater liberality In the interpretation of religion."
  • "The Bible is emphasized as the spiritual guide of the race rather than as a code of laws."
  • "Gradually the churches adopted instrumental music."
  • "With the introduction of special music, trained singers were sought for the choir."
Scene Three: Readers are urged to take a careful look at the congregation of which they are a part. Into which of these two categories does you congregation fit? Until the last 25 years all churches of Christ were very similar to those in Scene One. With the emergence of the change movement, more and more of our churches are more like those in Scene Two. In the early days faithful brethren would have said to those in worldly, apostate churches, "Wherefore come ye out from among them and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (II Cor. 6:17). So do we. </font>

___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
John, you keep hammering "law," to those who have obeyed Peter's words at Pentecost: man is "justified," in the mind of God, not in your mind!
You are "saved" John Waddey by the grace of God from His "wrath." You do not have to sit around in sackcloth and throw ashes on yourself. You have been declared a "new creature" in the eyes of God. Why don't you enjoy it? Live the Christian life. When was the last time you took a poor kid out to dinner, buy him a pair of shoes, teach him how to throw a baseball, football, play the piano? (I think it is you who used to play the piano in the Baptist/Methodist church: sorry if I have the wrong man).

Become a changed man John, enjoy the "Character" (that's "glory" to all my Baptist friends) of Jesus Christ. Live as if you were not promised tomorrow. A Christian can actually enjoy life here on earth. "Woe is me," "woe is me," is the cry of my Anti brothers.....
JR

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Saved by Grace aka David Keys
Saved by Grace aka David Keys

July 18th, 2005, 4:15 am #45

I'm sorry if I implied we are justified by anything other than Christ perfect sinless sacrifice for our sins.

Our "imputed" righteousness comes from Him and Him alone.

There is no "His part" and "my part", its all His doing.

We simply cannot add anything to His righteousness.

If I implied "we" have any part in our salvation or
justification I was wrong, wrong, wrong.

Sincerely, David
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allan
allan

July 19th, 2005, 2:19 am #46

I read your last post Dr Crump with the feeling that you are trying to put more on folks than the gospel intends. A faith in my ability to manipulate and negotiate the correct legal fullness of the gospel will not lead to eternal salvation.

I felt you were puting alot of faith in your understanding of the breath and specifics of Jesus commands when you closed with:

Jesus is willing to save us by His grace, but only if we are willing to obey Him completely; not only in the four commands above, but in all things whatsoever He has commanded us (Matt 28:20 KJV).

That doesn't sound to graceful. Are you saying that the only key to heaven is my sifting correctly every direct or inferred command from the gospels, the early church history, pastoral epitles and the NT prophesy and then keeping them perfectly?

My faith is not in my ability to discern the minutia of a new legal code but of the mercy and grace of God through Jesus Christ and accepted in Baptism.

Ephesians 3:12

In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

2 Timothy 1:12

For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I have hope in God's grace also covering my doctrinal mistakes. And Mark, I believe that all of them are correct. I am living in the Word and with God and reliant on the Holy Spirit to continue to teach me if any are in error. And, the minute, my eyes see or my ears hear I repent and continue on. I praise God for the grace to know Him better.

I think alot of confusion tends to be a failure to discern between justification and sanctification: between salvation and spiritual formation. Salvation is simple. Believe who Christ is. Believe what he says. Believe who you were created to be. Believe God's way is right. Believe you can be reborn by God into Christ likeness through water baptism and the Holy Spirit. Then, follow Him.

Then we are to continue to grow in Him. 2 Corinthians 5 paints the picture of our "groaning" as we are reconciled to God. This is the race Paul talks about. This is weaning off milk and taking meat. 1 Corinthians 3:13 talks about the refining process

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

We must vigorously seek after God through the Word, prayer, Christian service, quiet time with God, daily living and worship. But, we must be eternally humble in spirit. Chaper 3 and verse 18 continues with a stern reminder:

18Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

20And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

21Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

22Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

I just want to be Christ's and I am assured that I am.

... do not put anything else upon me.

allan


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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 19th, 2005, 4:51 pm #47

We’re quite used to seeing the following recurring phenomenon on this site: Whenever we state what the New Testament specifically says about anything, others with alternative views and ideas object with typical responses such as, “You put forth YOUR preferences as divine principles”; “You take the New Testament too literally”; “You read too much into Scripture”; and so on and so forth ad infinitum. In like manner, but more eloquently worded, Allan states that I am putting on folks more than what the Gospel intends, that this is a “pretty heavy yoke.” Once again, it is not I who “puts” anything on people or demands anything of people, but Christ Himself. I simply summarized the four salvation commandments that Christ laid out. You may have seen or heard about them under a different appellation as the “steps to salvation.” To be complete, there is a further preliminary “step,” which is to hear the Gospel preached. So we hear, believe, repent, confess, and be baptized. After one hears the Gospel, a person must then decide whether to follow through with the remaining commandments as Christ stipulated, or be unfaithful as a “picker and chooser.”

Whatever Christ “puts” on us or demands of us as clearly outlined in the Gospels should not be taken with grumblings and mutterings, but joyfully and with cheerfulness. We should not attempt to “justify” getting around them by saying, “Christ really didn't mean this; He really wouldn't have us do that; what He specifies is not popular today.” Why not just take Christ at His Word and do exactly as He says? After all, the First Epistle of John reminds us that if we love God, we will keep His commandments, for His commandments are not grievous (1 John 5:1-5 KJV). That is, His commandments are not grievous to those who trust Him and obey Him faithfully. But the renegade and rebel will always find the commands of Christ as odious and offensive. Desiring “liberty” with the lust to do as they please, the renegade and rebel will always see Christ's commands as too “restrictive,” as too “legalistic,” and they will spurn them.

Christ demands that we strive the very best we can to obey His Word as He commanded without deliberately deviating from it. But woe unto those who deliberately deviate (2 John 9-11 KJV). Is obeying not only Christ’s commandments for salvation but all things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV) that burdensome, that much of a “yoke”? Perhaps to the rebel and the renegade. The life of the faithful Christian is governed by the Authority of Christ; therefore, s/he does not have the spiritual “freedom” to do as s/he pleases, but gladly submits totally and completely to that Authority. That is truly being humble and obedient in spirit, and it is to the obedient that Christ extends His grace.

What is Christ’s grace but salvation from Him? Shall Christ extend His grace (give salvation) to those who call upon Him but who heed not what He commands? Christ emphatically counters this false assumption in Matt. 7:21-27 and in Luke 6:46-49 (all KJV). The New Testament is more than clear: there must be submission and obedience before there can be grace/salvation.



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allan
allan

July 20th, 2005, 4:15 am #48

Dr Crump in reading your post I hear you assumming that I am a rebel that seeks to manipulate the loop holes in the legal code to not have to follow Christ but still gain something( I am not sure what). If I do not want to follow Christ, I believe that makes me not a Christian.

I know that my greatest desire is to follow Christ with eavery breath. Christ is the source of all truth(John 1:17). I seek to test all and, by His grace ,my eyes will be open to the complete truth. The reason I come to you for fellowship through this site is seeking the truth. I listen to you, I take your words to the Bible, I pray about it and I share what I have experienced with you.

The goal of our discourse is not for me to convince you, it is not for you to convince me but, together as brothers, we are convinced of a third thing- the truth.

As you discuss with others, you have to keep them talking. If you talk down, patronize, do not listen to what others have learned and experience you will never have Christian fellowship. If you quickly pull out the pieces of what others share for which you think you have a banner retort, you will fail to share much of your Christian adventure with anyone else. Except, for those few that have the same experience as you. You view of God will remain what it is. You will not continue to grow in all fullness(Eph 4:7-16).

Also, you fail to address my point of the post. Do you believe that we must discern all of Christ's commands and then keep them perfectly before I can receive salvation through grace?

I agree following Christ is a tall order. It is one that I fail but get back up and keep on going. Again, my point is that I have faith in Christ that He is not giving up on me.

I you are telling me that as soon as I believe a wrong doctrine He is going to quit on me. In honest seeking after God, if my own fallable humaness leads me astay on one point, I am toast. That is no gospel of hope. That is self-suficient modern legalism. It is the idolitry of the worldly, logical mind.

Is that what you believe? Do you believe that God will give you no grace on doctrinal mistakes? Do you believe that if by some unseeable reason you have pieced the pauline epistles together incorrectly there is no hope. What if... The spirit of the young adult who led "Nearer to the Cross" during the passing of the bread that you crushed and failed to gently disciple was more important that your doctrine of orderly worship.

My point is that we have to humbly give grace as we discuss to find God's truth. Do you really believe that you are right on all points and all I need to do is openly agree with you? If you do then you are saying you are with out sin because only one without sin can fully understand the ways of God. The only person I converse with like that is the Christ. I blindly follow Him in my own feeble, peculiar and eternally loved by God way.


allen
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 20th, 2005, 2:15 pm #49

Allan assumes, because I mentioned "rebel" and "renegade" in my previous post, that I was talking specifically about him. Allan presumes/assumes far too much and takes posts much too personally. That's why I generally write in the third person. I only mentioned Allan's name in terms of his presumptuous claim that I put on people more than what (Allan thinks) the Gospel intends. The rest of my post expounded on New Testament passages about salvation and also reminded folks that it is the rebel and renegade who reject or seek a way around Christ's teachings.

But then maybe Allan's subconscious is bothering him. After reading what the New Testament requires for salvation, maybe his subconscious is conflicting with his current views. If so, then maybe he should reconsider his current position and restudy the New Testament's stance on salvation, what Christ specifically requires before He will bestow grace. That's all I can recommend.

Allan said: "Also, you fail to address my point of the post. Do you believe that we must discern all of Christ's commands and then keep them perfectly before I can receive salvation through grace?"

Allan needs to reread my post, for I said: "Christ demands that we strive the very best we can to obey His Word as He commanded without deliberately deviating from it. But woe unto those who deliberately deviate (2 John 9-11 KJV). Is obeying not only Christ’s commandments for salvation but all things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20 KJV) that burdensome, that much of a 'yoke'? Perhaps to the rebel and the renegade."

There is a decided difference between deviating unwittingly and deviating deliberately. But I submit that Christ's commands are not that grievous (even He said they were not grievous), such that the faithful should be able to conform to them. (But did I ever say that the faithful were always perfect?) It's those who willingly choose to alter and deviate from Christ's commands who fall from grace. It can't be any clearer than that.

Allan also said: "Do you really believe that you are right on all points and all I need to do is openly agree with you?"

Still not getting it, Allan clearly resorts to the classic you-put-forth-your-preferences-as-divine-principles defense. It's neither my doctrine nor my commands that are at issue, but those of Christ. Accept what Christ has specifically written in the New Testament, not only about salvation, but everything else as well.

I've said enough on this subject, and since Allan has quoted a lot of Scripture in previous posts, he sounds like a person who would be able to get the pure facts about salvation from the New Testament. All he or anyone else need do is put away personal prejudices, preferences, and any denominational biases and let the pure words of the New Testament do the talking. If the New Testament says "do," then do; if it says "don't," then don't; if it mentions nothing at all, then leave it at that.

To summarize again: Christ demands submission and obedience before He will bestow grace/salvation.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 20th, 2005, 3:23 pm #50

Dr Crump in reading your post I hear you assumming that I am a rebel that seeks to manipulate the loop holes in the legal code to not have to follow Christ but still gain something( I am not sure what). If I do not want to follow Christ, I believe that makes me not a Christian.

I know that my greatest desire is to follow Christ with eavery breath. Christ is the source of all truth(John 1:17). I seek to test all and, by His grace ,my eyes will be open to the complete truth. The reason I come to you for fellowship through this site is seeking the truth. I listen to you, I take your words to the Bible, I pray about it and I share what I have experienced with you.

The goal of our discourse is not for me to convince you, it is not for you to convince me but, together as brothers, we are convinced of a third thing- the truth.

As you discuss with others, you have to keep them talking. If you talk down, patronize, do not listen to what others have learned and experience you will never have Christian fellowship. If you quickly pull out the pieces of what others share for which you think you have a banner retort, you will fail to share much of your Christian adventure with anyone else. Except, for those few that have the same experience as you. You view of God will remain what it is. You will not continue to grow in all fullness(Eph 4:7-16).

Also, you fail to address my point of the post. Do you believe that we must discern all of Christ's commands and then keep them perfectly before I can receive salvation through grace?

I agree following Christ is a tall order. It is one that I fail but get back up and keep on going. Again, my point is that I have faith in Christ that He is not giving up on me.

I you are telling me that as soon as I believe a wrong doctrine He is going to quit on me. In honest seeking after God, if my own fallable humaness leads me astay on one point, I am toast. That is no gospel of hope. That is self-suficient modern legalism. It is the idolitry of the worldly, logical mind.

Is that what you believe? Do you believe that God will give you no grace on doctrinal mistakes? Do you believe that if by some unseeable reason you have pieced the pauline epistles together incorrectly there is no hope. What if... The spirit of the young adult who led "Nearer to the Cross" during the passing of the bread that you crushed and failed to gently disciple was more important that your doctrine of orderly worship.

My point is that we have to humbly give grace as we discuss to find God's truth. Do you really believe that you are right on all points and all I need to do is openly agree with you? If you do then you are saying you are with out sin because only one without sin can fully understand the ways of God. The only person I converse with like that is the Christ. I blindly follow Him in my own feeble, peculiar and eternally loved by God way.


allen
Since Allan has manifested a less-than-convivial attitude to my responding to him in the third person, I'm willing to strike a deal. First of all, I look with much disfavor upon anonymity, either partial or total. So if Allan is willing to reveal not only his full name but also the faith which he embraces, I will respond in the first person in any future exchanges that we may have.

Allan need not reveal the specific name of his church, such as Saddleback Valley Community Church, Willow Creek Community Church, Lakewood Community Church, etc. All he need do is reveal the faith: Southern Baptist, Methodist, Roman Catholic, Church of Christ (he should know what the latter represents, so we don't need to go round and round about terminology), etc.

Full name and faith embraced. Otherwise, I must continue in the third person. Fair enough?
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