Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 12th, 2013, 1:45 am #21

I have just collected a few notes on "What we Believe" on Salvation by Grace.

http://www.piney.com/Madison.Church.of. ... Faith.html

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 12th, 2013, 2:19 am #22

I have added a few more details.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 12th, 2013, 4:39 am #23

Donnie never said "no singing." He just lets the Scripture lie there unchanged.

It was me that said that the COMMAND to SPEAK psalms, hymns and spiritual songs probably doesn't mean SANG Twiler Paris and Fanny Crosby. Then, I may have missed out on reading.

Donnie believes in the Holy Spirit: it is called the Holy Spirit OF Christ or the Holy Spirit OF God.

Madison believes "a" spirit guided them into massive discord used to DRIVE OUT the godly.

Did you forget the lessons on prepositions so soon?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Thanks, brother Ken.

I could not have said it any better.

When I presented the lessons on prepositions, I could not get any help from our resident English professor, Dr. Bill Crump, to reinforce the truth that "OF" in an expression indicates ownership or possession or "that which belongs to." There are about 70 references from both the Old and New Testaments to: "the [holy] spirit OF _________" [oops, I yielded to the temptation to provide that list below].

[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I was going to say NOT ONLY the preposition "OF" but ALSO the personal pronoun "HIS" shows ownership.

Well, look no further: the above list explains "HIS," etc. with some 8 scriptural references.

Why would grammar experts not see that in the expression "the holy spirit OF God," it really makes no sense to "generate" [what about "create"?] ANOTHER divine being called "Holy Spirit" SEPARATE FROM God??????????[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 12th, 2013, 5:01 am #24

Donnie, how did Madison COC view your beliefs 15 years ago? I am talking about no singing (speak only) worship service, The Holy Spirit denial, and the non-eternal Jesus stand? Did the Church know about these issues?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Coach,

I am very grateful to you for introducing Lonzo Pribble to me. I haven't read his book yet, but I really love the title:

Theology Simplified -- God, His Son, and His Spirit

It can't get any more scriptural than that:[/color]
<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]God ---------- [only one] the Father (13 refs. from John 6:27 - Jude 1:1)
[/color]</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]His Son ------ Jesus, whom the Father made both Lord and Christ
[/color]</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]His Spirit --- (the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus Christ).[/color]</li>[/list]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 12th, 2013, 6:14 am #25

Madison only recently adopted a "What We Believe" in their new site, so as far as I know Donnie would be okay 15 years ago (at least as far as the Madison Creed is concerned). This does declare F-S-HS as inseparable yet separated, and is a almost identical statement of The City Church, Seattle, Washington--and so I would assume was copied from them. Even same scripture references are used.

The Philippian jailor wanted to be baptized, and Phillip replied that you can if you believe with all the heart that Jesus is the Son of God then you can be baptized. Acts 8:37--KJV but not in all the early texts. No such question was asked about the Holy Spirit.


[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Scripture,

This is the first time I've visited the Madison site in quite a while.

I was not able to distinguish this church's published teachings from those of the Baptist and other denominations.

I wonder if more of its members who are really knowledgeable of what the New Testament teaches and are made aware of Madison's publicized newly acquired creed will consider leaving Madison for good.

The leaders (including the "shepherds," et al) need to get back to studying the New Testament and the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

The separate sections concerning "Salvation by Grace Through Faith" and "Water Baptism" [where "salvation" is absent"] indeed reveal the BAPTIST denomination's redemption formula.

Even sections pertaining to "The Church" and "Tithes and Offerings" are strong indications of the direction that the church's leaders are moving toward.

(It all makes me wonder about the leadership at Madison. Are there "other leaders" that now oversee the "shepherds"? What is it about this young preacher, Jason Shepherd, a graduate of Freed-Hardeman Univ., a conservative school? [Never mind: the prominent change agent Rubel Shelly graduated from FHC also.] You know, I'm now more and more convinced that the demoted former minister, Phil Barnes, was "conservative" after all, perhaps too conservative for the shepherds.)

Sad and unfortunate!!![/color]
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Bill
Bill

October 12th, 2013, 7:20 am #26

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Coach,

I am very grateful to you for introducing Lonzo Pribble to me. I haven't read his book yet, but I really love the title:

Theology Simplified -- God, His Son, and His Spirit

It can't get any more scriptural than that:[/color]
<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]God ---------- [only one] the Father (13 refs. from John 6:27 - Jude 1:1)
[/color]</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]His Son ------ Jesus, whom the Father made both Lord and Christ
[/color]</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]His Spirit --- (the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus Christ).[/color]</li>[/list]
In the human world, a father is a distinct person. If the father has a son, the son belongs to the father; that is, the son OF the father, yet the son is also a distinct person. Suppose the father has a close relative, such as a nephew, for example. Even though the nephew is a distinct person, he is still the nephew OF the father or the father's nephew.

A family relationship also exists in the divine world with God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God is a distinct, divine being. The Son OF God is Jesus, Who is also a distinct, divine being. By close relationship to the Father, the Holy Spirit is also a distinct, divine being, who belongs to God, who is also the Holy Spirit OF God. Of course, the Holy Spirit is not really God's "nephew," but a family type of relationship does exist with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To recap:

The Son OF God, AKA Jesus, is a distinct, divine being Who belongs to God. Another way to say it is "God's Son."

The Holy Spirit OF God is also a distinct, divine being who also belongs to God. Another way to say it is "God's Holy Spirit."

It's still so very simple, even with the preposition OF.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 12th, 2013, 8:05 am #27

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]In your divine familial relationship, did you forget about "the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"?

In your divine familial relationship (since we know about the birth of Jesus, God's Son), when was "the Holy Spirit" born?

In your divine familial relationship, if "the Holy Spirit" was not born but rather in co-existence with the Father, would you consider "the Holy Spirit" the "Mother of Jesus"?

In your divine familial relationship:

(1) The name of God the Father is "Jehovah";
(2) The name of the Son of God is "Jesus Christ";
(3) The name of "the Holy Spirit" (as a divine being) is ____________?[/color]

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Scripture
Scripture

October 12th, 2013, 2:53 pm #28

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Scripture,

This is the first time I've visited the Madison site in quite a while.

I was not able to distinguish this church's published teachings from those of the Baptist and other denominations.

I wonder if more of its members who are really knowledgeable of what the New Testament teaches and are made aware of Madison's publicized newly acquired creed will consider leaving Madison for good.

The leaders (including the "shepherds," et al) need to get back to studying the New Testament and the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

The separate sections concerning "Salvation by Grace Through Faith" and "Water Baptism" [where "salvation" is absent"] indeed reveal the BAPTIST denomination's redemption formula.

Even sections pertaining to "The Church" and "Tithes and Offerings" are strong indications of the direction that the church's leaders are moving toward.

(It all makes me wonder about the leadership at Madison. Are there "other leaders" that now oversee the "shepherds"? What is it about this young preacher, Jason Shepherd, a graduate of Freed-Hardeman Univ., a conservative school? [Never mind: the prominent change agent Rubel Shelly graduated from FHC also.] You know, I'm now more and more convinced that the demoted former minister, Phil Barnes, was "conservative" after all, perhaps too conservative for the shepherds.)

Sad and unfortunate!!![/color]
The previous pulpit minister was increasingly under pressure to preach what the "spiritual leaders" wanted him to preach.

The current preaching minister is teaching the gospel of "The City Church", Seattle.

Madison has adopted much of their creed--enough that it is easy to say they have crossed the Rubicon.

Who are the spiritual leaders?
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Bill
Bill

October 12th, 2013, 3:40 pm #29

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]In your divine familial relationship, did you forget about "the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"?

In your divine familial relationship (since we know about the birth of Jesus, God's Son), when was "the Holy Spirit" born?

In your divine familial relationship, if "the Holy Spirit" was not born but rather in co-existence with the Father, would you consider "the Holy Spirit" the "Mother of Jesus"?

In your divine familial relationship:

(1) The name of God the Father is "Jehovah";
(2) The name of the Son of God is "Jesus Christ";
(3) The name of "the Holy Spirit" (as a divine being) is ____________?[/color]
In the Bible, sometimes things can be seen correctly in more than one way. Often there is only one way to see them correctly, but there are times when different views can still be correct.

For example, the Holy Spirit OF God can be correctly seen two ways: (1) either as a distinct, divine being who is not God, but who nevertheless belongs to God's "family," (thus, God's Holy Spirit), just as Jesus is God's Son; OR (2) as the Spirit that lies within God Himself. Of course, if one takes the latter view, given that God is already an eternal spirit, then the Holy Spirit would have to be seen as the "spirit of a spirit." That sounds awkward, but it is no less awkward than Donnie's saying "Jesus became Jesus" when the Word became flesh. BTW, we must thank Donnie for concocting his phrase "Jesus became Jesus." Of course, he meant it to be absurd, because to Donnie, the idea that Jesus could have ever been the Word Who was with God in the beginning is absurd. But in trying to be absurd, Donnie unwittingly stated a reality: Jesus, as a divine being, left heaven for a time to be born as Jesus the human being on earth. So in reality, the idea that "Jesus became Jesus" is not absurd at all. Thanks again, Donnie!

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 12th, 2013, 4:55 pm #30

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]In your divine familial relationship, did you forget about "the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"?

In your divine familial relationship (since we know about the birth of Jesus, God's Son), when was "the Holy Spirit" born?

In your divine familial relationship, if "the Holy Spirit" was not born but rather in co-existence with the Father, would you consider "the Holy Spirit" the "Mother of Jesus"?

In your divine familial relationship:

(1) The name of God the Father is "Jehovah";
(2) The name of the Son of God is "Jesus Christ";
(3) The name of "the Holy Spirit" (as a divine being) is ____________?[/color]
The Massed Multitude is not supposed to read black text on brown paper: that is how we know to dust off feet.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;


There is ONE GOD affirms Jesus.
God is whatever YOU cannot define but not a being as in creature.

Jesus is one Human Being. That makes two. My father was a being and I am a being but I was not my father before I became me. My father existed before his SON and was lots smarter: Jesus knew only what the ONE GOD breathed (spirit) into Him.

There is only ONE MEDIATOR or INTERCESSOR between man and God. There is not a holy spirit BEING. Jesus was not Lord or Christ until the ONE BEING in whom we live, move and have our being MADE HIM SO.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

Jesus was given the Fulness of Deity bodily with full authority.

There are "spirits" OF THE WORLD for whom Jesus did not pray and god HID from the wise or Sophists (self speakers, singers, instrument players."

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

If you can't just "speak that which is written for our learning" then it is not given to you.
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