Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 15th, 2013, 5:22 am #31

Titans 13-----Seahawks 20

Ken it's a sign. See you in Church Sunday?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Coach, when can you give us directions to the city where the church building is located? Is there a STOP sign before turning LEFT?[/color]
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Dave
Dave

October 15th, 2013, 1:39 pm #32

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

<font size="4">That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.
</font>

ConcernedMembers
Donnie claimed that "There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning.""

Fortunately Donnie, it isn't a claim, but only fact, when you back it with Scripture.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

The Word, the He, became Jesus dwelling among us. The Word, Jesus was with God in the beginning and the Word was God.

You cannot deny facts.

The crazy part? You said "Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one.""

Donnie, you have come full circle. You are separating God from Jesus, and now you want your three persons? 'God in three persons, blessed trinity.'

Amazing.

(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

John only quotes what Jesus said. You are right....not as twins, but as one. Twins are two different people.
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Bill
Bill

October 15th, 2013, 2:37 pm #33

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

(1) Let's not forget "... and the Word was God" [still] in verse one. The original text renders "... and God was the Word."

(2) There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning." They literally would substitute "Jesus" in place of "the Word." Based on the original text, can you imagine the distortion?

----------- Original Text ---------------
(a) In the beginning was the Word
(b) ... and the Word was with God
(c) ... and God was the Word


----------- Distorted Substitution ------
(a) In the beginning was Jesus
(b) ... and Jesus was with God
(c) ... and God was Jesus [really? really? really?]


(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

(4) Worse would be to claim: "I and my Father and my Mother [the Virgin Mary] are one."

(5) Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one."[/color]
So here we have continuing arguments about whether Jesus was the Word or was not the Word and about whether Jesus is God or is not God.

But the most notable arguments center around Jesus' telling us in John 3 and John 6 in His own words that He "came down from heaven" to be with us on earth and that He would "ascend up where He was before." Then other people, in complete denial of the Scriptures, come along with their eyes and ears tightly shut and say nope, nope, Jesus never existed or lived in heaven with God before His birth on earth; when He was born 2,000 years ago, THAT'S when Jesus first came into being, never beforehand.

That is absolutely unbelievable!
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Coach
Coach

October 15th, 2013, 3:54 pm #34

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Coach, when can you give us directions to the city where the church building is located? Is there a STOP sign before turning LEFT?[/color]
"Coach, when can you give us directions to the city where the church building is located? Is there a STOP sign before turning LEFT?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually, it's a "Roundabout". You can only exit to the right.
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Coach
Coach

October 15th, 2013, 4:08 pm #35

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Where's "the beef," Coach? Did not someone quote a single scripture reference?[/color]
Where's "the beef," Coach? Did not someone quote a single scripture reference?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bear with me Donnie, "the end justifies the means" if I can get Ken back in Church.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 16th, 2013, 3:13 am #36

"Coach, when can you give us directions to the city where the church building is located? Is there a STOP sign before turning LEFT?"

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Actually, it's a "Roundabout". You can only exit to the right.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I was simply trying to differentiate the church from the church building. Coach, would you not want us to know about your home congregation? Even though you were inviting...?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 16th, 2013, 3:30 am #37

Where's "the beef," Coach? Did not someone quote a single scripture reference?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Bear with me Donnie, "the end justifies the means" if I can get Ken back in Church.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]That invitation is very insulting, Coach. Ken is already in the School of Christ. He is one of its great instructors.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 16th, 2013, 4:59 am #38

So here we have continuing arguments about whether Jesus was the Word or was not the Word and about whether Jesus is God or is not God.

But the most notable arguments center around Jesus' telling us in John 3 and John 6 in His own words that He "came down from heaven" to be with us on earth and that He would "ascend up where He was before." Then other people, in complete denial of the Scriptures, come along with their eyes and ears tightly shut and say nope, nope, Jesus never existed or lived in heaven with God before His birth on earth; when He was born 2,000 years ago, THAT'S when Jesus first came into being, never beforehand.

That is absolutely unbelievable!
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, were you aware of the above subject: "'... and God was the Word' (John 1:1)"? If not, you really should.

John 1:1 says, "... and God was the Word."

You've been substituting "Jesus" for "the Word" for a while now. Can you honestly say, according to your rule of substitution, "... and God was Jesus"? Bill: "... and God was Jesus"?????????????

You've also been equating "came down from heaven" with "existed." Really? What about "the fire came from heaven" in II Chron. 7:1?

When did Jesus become the Son of God?

When was Jesus made both Lord and Christ by the Father?


Bill, why do you keep ignoring these very important questions?

That is a very, very bad habit.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 16th, 2013, 5:22 am #39

Donnie claimed that "There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning.""

Fortunately Donnie, it isn't a claim, but only fact, when you back it with Scripture.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

The Word, the He, became Jesus dwelling among us. The Word, Jesus was with God in the beginning and the Word was God.

You cannot deny facts.

The crazy part? You said "Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one.""

Donnie, you have come full circle. You are separating God from Jesus, and now you want your three persons? 'God in three persons, blessed trinity.'

Amazing.

(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

John only quotes what Jesus said. You are right....not as twins, but as one. Twins are two different people.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

John 1:1 says that it was "the Word" that "was in the beginning." Why change the truth?

John 1:1 says that it was "the Word" that "was made flesh" in the person of Jesus Christ. Why would you even attempt to change the truth into your notion which is: "... and Jesus became Jesus"?

Dave, God made Jesus both LORD and CHRIST. Did this occur to "the Word" you CLAIM as Jesus in the beginning with God? Or, did this occur during the lifetime of Christ here on earth?

Dave, was Jesus already the Son of God<i> in the beginning</i> long before God sent His only begotten Son two millenniums ago?[/color]
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Bill
Bill

October 16th, 2013, 5:44 am #40

Donnie claimed that "There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning.""

Fortunately Donnie, it isn't a claim, but only fact, when you back it with Scripture.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

The Word, the He, became Jesus dwelling among us. The Word, Jesus was with God in the beginning and the Word was God.

You cannot deny facts.

The crazy part? You said "Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one.""

Donnie, you have come full circle. You are separating God from Jesus, and now you want your three persons? 'God in three persons, blessed trinity.'

Amazing.

(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

John only quotes what Jesus said. You are right....not as twins, but as one. Twins are two different people.
[ . . . ]

________________________________


[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

Please respond to the unanswered questions I've already asked you several times ... including the same questions for Dave just above this post. Then, we will publish your temporarily "disabled" post. (By the way, this SAME message has already been published several times.)[/color]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on October 16th, 2013, 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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