Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

Bill
Bill

October 14th, 2013, 4:10 am #21

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill says: "Jesus obviously existed spiritually with God in heaven long before Jesus came to earth as a human being."

No. There is ONLY ONE GOD.

In the beginning was "the Word" (LOGOS -- spoken, uttered, articulated, said).

In the beginning "the Word" (LOGOS) was with God.

In the beginning "the Word" was God; in the original text: "God was the Word."

Therefore, "the Word" and "God" are interchangeable.

What "GOD SAID:" was evident at creation:
-- GOD SAID: "Let there be light" ... and that was Day 1.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 2.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 3.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 4.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 5.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 6.

The PARALLEL: John 1 also speaks of: (1) "IN THE BEGINNING" as well as of "THE LIGHT."

This time "the Word" [LOGOS--spoken} was made flesh. "The Word" BECAME Jesus (per John 1:14).

Bill, you really have a "pre-existing" issue.

What occurred was a REAL TRANSFORMATION:

(1) FROM: "the Word" [LOGOS] in the beginning
(2) TO: being made FLESH [becoming Jesus] 2000 years ago.

Otherwise, you will have to live with this: that Jesus BECAME Jesus.[/color]
Donnie, focus on John 3:12-13, John 6:57-58, and John 6:61-62 for a while. In view of Jesus having said that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth and that He would "ascend up where He was before," that's proof enough for most discerning Christians that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before coming to earth. Sorry, Donnie, but your idea that Jesus didn't exist AT ALL until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago has been destroyed...by Jesus Himself. I really don't understand why you want to knock what Jesus SAID about Himself, but that's between you and Him. I stand by what Jesus SAID. If you can't do the same, Donnie, then may God help you.
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

October 14th, 2013, 4:21 am #22

The ISSUE was/is: "Was Jesus of Nazareth a literal "begotten" son of God from all eternity. Was HE a member of a "god family"? Was He EQUAL but SEPARATE from the FATHER god and the Spirit god? Was God THREE centers of consciousness each with their unique talent but were in COMMUNION so that they all thought alike?

Christ is not a GOD word but was the promised MESSIAH. No one ever thought that Messiah was a member of the god family: you would probably have been executed if you denied all of the clear statements that THERE IS ONE GOD.

John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
That Christ cometh of the seed of David,
.....and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
.....which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Jesus became the son Mary because God worked a MIRACLE. God did not put a pre-existing Jesus OF Nazareth into Mary but sparked the EGG within Mary (the seed of a woman) into dividing. Otherwise, some bright person would have said "Jesus OF heaven."

Romans 1:4 And DECLARED to be the Son of God with power,
.....according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


He was not the Son of God until God made him to be His ONLY human generated MAN not created without a man. This is to validate prophecy: No king was to set on the throne from the SEED of Jechoniah. The issue is not any more than a virgin birth as it is to PROVE prophecy.

While all of those for Whom Jesus was sent to search out of the masses are FROM ABOVE and not OF THIS WORLD, Jesus was unique in that God BREATHED His Spirit (Breath) to INSTRUCT us in a School of Christ: those OF THE WORLD were doing "worship services" this morning TO WHICH Jesus said the Kingdom does not come.

</font>
Have I missed a discussion of Gen. 1:26? I'm out of town and the small print on my phone is hard for us old folks, but would love some thoughts.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 14th, 2013, 7:04 am #23

Donnie, focus on John 3:12-13, John 6:57-58, and John 6:61-62 for a while. In view of Jesus having said that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth and that He would "ascend up where He was before," that's proof enough for most discerning Christians that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before coming to earth. Sorry, Donnie, but your idea that Jesus didn't exist AT ALL until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago has been destroyed...by Jesus Himself. I really don't understand why you want to knock what Jesus SAID about Himself, but that's between you and Him. I stand by what Jesus SAID. If you can't do the same, Donnie, then may God help you.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

I have ... I have. In fact, I noticed that you had inadvertently left out the "chapter" of the second passage in your initial post. Also, I have already explained that "came down from heaven" and "existed" do not have the same meaning. I also said -- what about the fire that "came down from heaven"?

Bill, we ought to study the passages you quoted with the rest of John 1. We need to consider the time frame, the continuum -- from the "in the beginning" when "the Word" was in the beginning with God (and was God [if you forgot about that]) UNTIL the time when "the Word" became flesh. You're just simply denying or rejecting that span of time. If "the Word" was already Jesus in the beginning, there would have been no point in Jesus coming to earth to become Jesus.

There are questions and issues that you haven't paid serious attention to: (1) When did Jesus become the Son of God? (2) When was Jesus made both Lord and Christ by the Father?

You are entitled to your viewpoint -- call my interpretation a fallacy, but don't insult me otherwise.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 14th, 2013, 8:01 am #24

Have I missed a discussion of Gen. 1:26? I'm out of town and the small print on my phone is hard for us old folks, but would love some thoughts.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Just very briefly, Tom.

(I was just waiting for someone to mention the passage.)

I see a parallel between Genesis 1 and John 1 -- both strongly emphasize "in the beginning." (Of course, I realize the common belief in "let us" ... as well as the common belief in "the Word" in reference to Jesus.)

In Genesis it's always "GOD SAID" on the first day, second day, third day, etc. And there's only ONE God -- should we doubt it? But there's significance in God SPEAKING with no one around. So in "LET US," it is ONE God and God SPEAKING.

In John, it's about "the Word" (LOGOS -- spoken, uttered, articulated) that was "in the beginning" ... and was "in the beginning" with God ... and "THE WORD WAS GOD." There -- there's only ONE God -- should we doubt it?

In both accounts (Genesis and John), we can be assured that there is only ONE GOD, no matter how many divine beings man would attempt to add to the ONE GOD.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

October 14th, 2013, 2:13 pm #25

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

<font size="4">That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.
</font>

ConcernedMembers
John 10
30 I and the Father are one.

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

No one.....again......No one is denying that there is but one God. The beautiful FACT that John brings to us is that Jesus is God. John 10 proves that.

What is unthinkable is that Donnie has all along decried the catholic thinking of Trinity, yet now we see him trying to separate the two.

Tom Brite mentioned this....the fact that most all of the brotherhood believes that Jesus is the Word, and has always been....just as the Scriptures speak of.

This logos.......is a HE......that HE being Jesus. HE became flesh, Jesus, but as specified in verse 2, was with God, being God, a part of God, in the beginning.

John 1
2 He was with God in the beginning.

When it mentions HE, it mentions that the WORD is HE, being Jesus.

John 5
19 Jesus gave them this answer: Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Why could He do nothing by himself, and why does He do only what God does? Because He IS God.

Yes, Donnie, we are all part of God too. You sound like the muslim who tells me that we are all children of God. We are, but we are only part of God because of our adoption through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 14th, 2013, 5:20 pm #26

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

<font size="4">That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.
</font>

ConcernedMembers
Tom, I have redone my table to include verse 26. John Calvin agreed that this says nothing about three persons doing the creating. WE still say WE when WE know that we are not triplets. John knew that God always had His Wisdom, Breath (spirit) and Word with HIM: He never leaves home disconnected from His Word.

God made it clear that GOD made man in HIS image.

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Coach
Coach

October 14th, 2013, 9:22 pm #27

Ken, I was sitting on the front row at Church. I was wearing a maroon colored suit, white shirt, and tie with a black hound's-tooth pattern.

Ken, did you go to Church? Enjoy the ballgame.
Titans 13-----Seahawks 20

Ken it's a sign. See you in Church Sunday?
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Coach
Coach

October 14th, 2013, 9:46 pm #28

I do personally certify that the most primitive in the pre-post-literate period knew that:

Loud music was known to INTEND to attack and hurt. It was known to make LEARNING impossible because "learning hurts" and false teachers substitute music to divert.

Loud music was--then and now--known to be the result of men who "set their lies to deceive the simple minded."

Why should I subject myself to that which induces a DRUG HIGH beyond the reach of medication to relieve?

And pay them too?

I can also affirm that probably more than half of the population (as the Greeks knew) are BURDEN LADED meaning songs that "create spiritual anxiety through religious ceremonial. Paul outlawed that before it is possible to hold, in his words, synagogue where the direct command is "to use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning."

While the men playing the SHELL GAME and making WORSHIP WARS to steal sheep, the population has increased 1 or 2 Billions. Animals do that to defend their turf.
Lots of noise at the Titans-Seahawks game......

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20131 ... Link-Field
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 15th, 2013, 4:52 am #29

John 10
30 I and the Father are one.

John 1
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

No one.....again......No one is denying that there is but one God. The beautiful FACT that John brings to us is that Jesus is God. John 10 proves that.

What is unthinkable is that Donnie has all along decried the catholic thinking of Trinity, yet now we see him trying to separate the two.

Tom Brite mentioned this....the fact that most all of the brotherhood believes that Jesus is the Word, and has always been....just as the Scriptures speak of.

This logos.......is a HE......that HE being Jesus. HE became flesh, Jesus, but as specified in verse 2, was with God, being God, a part of God, in the beginning.

John 1
2 He was with God in the beginning.

When it mentions HE, it mentions that the WORD is HE, being Jesus.

John 5
19 Jesus gave them this answer: Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Why could He do nothing by himself, and why does He do only what God does? Because He IS God.

Yes, Donnie, we are all part of God too. You sound like the muslim who tells me that we are all children of God. We are, but we are only part of God because of our adoption through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

(1) Let's not forget "... and the Word was God" [still] in verse one. The original text renders "... and God was the Word."

(2) There are those who have the preconceived notion that "Jesus" was "the Word in the beginning." They literally would substitute "Jesus" in place of "the Word." Based on the original text, can you imagine the distortion?

----------- Original Text ---------------
(a) In the beginning was the Word
(b) ... and the Word was with God
(c) ... and God was the Word


----------- Distorted Substitution ------
(a) In the beginning was Jesus
(b) ... and Jesus was with God
(c) ... and God was Jesus [really? really? really?]


(3) "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30) speaks of UNITY -- not as twins.

(4) Worse would be to claim: "I and my Father and my Mother [the Virgin Mary] are one."

(5) Just as bad would be to claim: "I and my Father and the 3rd Person Holy Spirit are one."[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 15th, 2013, 5:09 am #30

Lots of noise at the Titans-Seahawks game......

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20131 ... Link-Field
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Where's "the beef," Coach? Did not someone quote a single scripture reference?[/color]
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