Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth

Bill
Bill

October 28th, 2013, 3:01 am #121

Gerald is correct in that there is no biblical condemnation for believing in the Trinity or for calling Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Trinity. We have plenty of things that are not listed in the Bible, yet naming them is not automatically a sin. There is also no biblical condemnation for believing that the Holy Spirit is not only a divine being but also the spirit of God. Belief in the Trinity does not disparage the Holy Spirit at all.

Notice how quickly we got away from discussing Jesus' existence in heaven before His birth on earth. That's just as well, because fruitful discussion about that subject has ended for all practical purposes. However, those who are captivated by their own endless arguments will continue them.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 28th, 2013, 3:02 am #122

I have not visited this forum in about two weeks so I just read where Bill requested BCV for my statements regarding losing one's salvation over belief in The Trinity. It is the words of Jesus recorded in Luke 12:10 (NKJV) - "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven." No, I cannot provide an explicit verse of specifically saying "Trinity" because it is not in the Bible, thus, the point about blasphemy. Any false and blasphemous teaching about The Holy Spirit "Of Christ" is the unpardonable or unforgivable sin. Words against "The Son Of Man" identity of Jesus Christ could be forgiven because The Spirit (Holy) Of Christ would still teach after Jesus in the flesh no longer resided on earth. Luke 12:12 "For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
The ANTICHRISTIAN universal trinity debunked when the ONE GOD gave the MAN JESUS BORN IN TIME full authority. This is the always pagan trinity worshipped at Mount Sinai under the IDOL of Apis the bull calf. Actually, the statement is that they had CALVES. Paul call this demon worship and it was a sin for which there was no redemption. That is why John says that if you deny:

One GOD (Theos) the Father and
One LORD (kurios) the Son then you are an antiChrist. When Jesus returned at Pentecost to pour out what you see and hear, the SPIRIT was wind or breath and the SON was the word which Jesus said IS SPIRIT and IS LIFE. There is only one Almighty and everything is created or He would not be the almighty. Reading is a wonderful skill.

There are bigger issues right now: no one has run out of text to TRUMP one or two misread ones.


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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 28th, 2013, 3:06 am #123

I have not visited this forum in about two weeks so I just read where Bill requested BCV for my statements regarding losing one's salvation over belief in The Trinity. It is the words of Jesus recorded in Luke 12:10 (NKJV) - "And anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but to him who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven." No, I cannot provide an explicit verse of specifically saying "Trinity" because it is not in the Bible, thus, the point about blasphemy. Any false and blasphemous teaching about The Holy Spirit "Of Christ" is the unpardonable or unforgivable sin. Words against "The Son Of Man" identity of Jesus Christ could be forgiven because The Spirit (Holy) Of Christ would still teach after Jesus in the flesh no longer resided on earth. Luke 12:12 "For the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]It may take a long time for some folks, if at all, to believe in "the holy spirit OF Jesus Christ."

The biggest hindrance is the lack of or no recognition of the "Holy Spirit" [capitalized for Trinity adherents] belonging to the Father or His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The "Holy Spirit" consists of: (1) the word "spirit" (an improper noun) and what it means and (2) the word "holy" (an adjective) which modifies the improper noun "spirit." (This has been discussed extensively and ignored extensively.)

The "[holy] spirit OF Christ" is mentioned and identified in the following passages:

------ Rom. 8 [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

------ 1 Pet. 1 [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

------ Phil. 1 [19] For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 28th, 2013, 3:28 am #124

Gerald is correct in that there is no biblical condemnation for believing in the Trinity or for calling Father, Son, and Holy Spirit the Trinity. We have plenty of things that are not listed in the Bible, yet naming them is not automatically a sin. There is also no biblical condemnation for believing that the Holy Spirit is not only a divine being but also the spirit of God. Belief in the Trinity does not disparage the Holy Spirit at all.

Notice how quickly we got away from discussing Jesus' existence in heaven before His birth on earth. That's just as well, because fruitful discussion about that subject has ended for all practical purposes. However, those who are captivated by their own endless arguments will continue them.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill believes in two "spirits":

(1) The Trinity Creed's "Holy Spirit" -- 3rd Person
------------ and ----------
(2) The spirit of God/the Father/the Lord Jesus Christ

That is contrary to:[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (I Cor. 12:13)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." (Eph. 2:18)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling..." (Eph. 4:4)[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Not only do we have to contend with the Trinity Creed of 3 Gods, including "God the Holy Spirit"; but also do we have to contend with 2 Spirits [per Bill] -- divided.

Sometimes man's perception can become that delusional. Worse is when one thrives on "the Scripture doesn't say, therefore, it is not to be rejected" rather than "the Scripture says so." [/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 28th, 2013, 3:43 am #125

Actually, since several days went by with no additional posts in this thread, that should tell us that there is nothing more to discuss. To those who are willing to accept Jesus' words as they appear in Scripture, the biblical passages from John 3, John 6, and John 17 as quoted above are proof enough that Jesus lived, dwelled, or existed with God in heaven before His birth on earth as a human being. Let's not look for hidden meanings in Scripture or say that Jesus meant something different than what appears in Scripture. Just accept what Jesus said about Himself and be content.

All arguments from both sides have been posted. That is, one side has presented Scriptures wherein Jesus provides a brief description of His heavenly whereabouts prior to His birth. The other side has presented arguments that basically say that's not what Jesus meant or that deny Jesus' words altogether. Any further discussion would be merely a useless recycling of arguments with nothing more gained.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There's plenty to discuss pertaining to your "biblical proof"; don't you worry.

As of now, there are numerous UNANSWERED QUESTIONS -- and they will remain that way until you respond to each SPECIFIC QUESTION accordingly.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 28th, 2013, 1:31 pm #126

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]It may take a long time for some folks, if at all, to believe in "the holy spirit OF Jesus Christ."

The biggest hindrance is the lack of or no recognition of the "Holy Spirit" [capitalized for Trinity adherents] belonging to the Father or His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The "Holy Spirit" consists of: (1) the word "spirit" (an improper noun) and what it means and (2) the word "holy" (an adjective) which modifies the improper noun "spirit." (This has been discussed extensively and ignored extensively.)

The "[holy] spirit OF Christ" is mentioned and identified in the following passages:

------ Rom. 8 [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

------ 1 Pet. 1 [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

------ Phil. 1 [19] For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.[/color]
And Paul SUPPLIED spirit by TEACHING and people RECEIVED spirit by HEARING. Jesus said MY WORDS are spirit and life and for the SPEAKING commands in Ephesians they were to be supplied with SPIRIT and in Colossians they were to be supplied with THE WORD OF CHRIST. Madison and the other Epistle-Deniers are filled with the fruit of Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly:

Max Lucado explaining how to write "beyond the sacred pages." Yet, Paul wrote, not because of heavenly action, but because of congregational angst. Titus needed direction, the Ephesians needed assurance. Timothy struggled, the Corinthians squabbled and the Galatians waffled. So Paul wrote to them.

How he made music with his words. He turned epistles into concert hall sheet music. Though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, but have not love, I have become as sounding brass or clanging cymbal. (1 Cor. 13:1) Its as if he dipped his pen in honey. He could sound like a poet in the seventh heaven.

He could also sound like a pastor on Monday morning. Tired, frustrated. Beginning sentences and not finishing them. Starting a second thought before he finished the first. Throwing out ideas in lumps instead of lyrics. [real men don't do lyrics reports history] But that was ok. He wasnt writing the Bible. He was writing to Philemon. He wasnt crafting epistles; he was solving problems. Paul didnt write for the ages; he wrote for the churches. He wrote for souls.

And weve written: articles, blogs, books, stories. Not like Luke, Paul, and John. But not unlike them, either.

Weve had our moments of inspiration. Sandwiched between hours of perspiration, for sure. But weve had our momentsmystical moments of pounding heart and pounding keyboard. Weve felt the wind behind our backs and sensed a holy hand guiding ours. We, like our Creator, have beheld our creations and declared, Its good. (Or, at least, Its not so bad.) And we have asked: Is this our call? Our assignment? To use words to shape souls?


You notice that Paul was NOT inspired and did not write SCRIPTURE when Peter said that he did. However, Max Lucado IS INSPIRED and the Madison people believe it. However, Jesus said that speaking the LOGOS as He spoke it will get you hated, despised and even murdered. It gets Max Lucado and the small band of merry men claiming to build the KINGDOM including all "denominations" in Abilene rich and famous. So, we conclude that there are bad "spirits" or minds in the world and ALMOST ALL OF THE WORLD for which Jesus did not pray have fallen under SPIRITUS which in the Latin is defined st the spirit of Abaddon or Apollyon who is the LEADERS of the MUSES. The muses in Revelation 18 are called SORCERERS purpose driven to deceive the whole world once more and John says they WILL BE cast alive into the Lake of Fire.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 29th, 2013, 3:34 pm #127

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

<font size="4">That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.
</font>

ConcernedMembers
The POINT of the POINT was to show from the Text that there is:
One God (Theos) and
One Lord (Kurios)

And the Lord and Comforter (Paraklete) is Jesus Christ the Righteous who reigns in His Church or the Body: He speaks when the "elders" as Pastor-teachers teach that which has been taught and the church is edified or EDUCATED by the Prophets and Apostles. Peter marked those who taught otherwise as FALSE TEACHERS and Paul said that they CORRUPTED the Word by selling their WORDS at retail which also identified the PROSTITUTE.

Believer's spirits are translated into a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM which is NOT identified by self-preaching, singing, playing or fleecing the widows to procure another female MINISTER (Deaconess) ruling over us. They can claim the ROLE BUT Jesus paid it all and they HAVE NO DOLE. Judas carried the bag because he was a THIEF and the bag was "for carrying the mouth pieces of wind instruments." The SIGN made known throughout the world is defined as the noise of "musical" Instruments. The SIGN was understood to be The Dissolving of the Ekklesia. In Revelation 18 the sounds of sorcery was removed from CHRIST'S ekklesia at the time that He removed the LAMPS or seven spirits of God which in Isaiah 11 are seven types of DIVINE KNOWLEDGE and the proof that God does not judge by what He SEES or what He HEARS.

And agian I say: Those spirits sent by God will return to God: Jesus is not OF this world neither are those who RECEIVE the message and are baptized.

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. <b></b>


We are all flesh and our flesh will see corruption. Jesus is an exception in that he did not decay: He is still Lord and Spiri.

Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him,
.....that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh,
.....he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ,
.....that his soul was not left in hell,
.....neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.


We are are SPIRITS given by God but our Body is a temporary "tent."

2Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.....we have a building of God, an house not made with hands,
..... eternal in the heavens.
2Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan,
.....earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Corinthians 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
.....not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
.....who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,
.....whilst we are at home in the body,
.....we are absent from the Lord: </font>
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Coach
Coach

October 29th, 2013, 5:43 pm #128

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

<font size="4">That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.
</font>

ConcernedMembers
Wow, I see that Donnie edited the "Header Title" message after the discussion was basically concluded. Such an action coming from Donnie is quite a surprise!

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 29th, 2013, 10:55 pm #129

Donnie is much to nice to do that but I am a nasty old man and I did it: I remember that the sound of the instruments when Jesus came was to FLUSH OUT THE DUNG from Jerusalem but somehow something of historic proportions happened when Madison dropped all of the droppings that they were USING the WOMENS to be the PREACHER as long as she used a TUNE.

Eve is defined as EVAH meaning an abomination. The priests of the Goddesses were emasculated and the MUSES forced music so that SHE WOULD BE WORSHIPPED. The invasion by the females would never be godly women who are probably most of those who flee when they see a female standing in the "holy place" claiming to be God in Christ capable of leading you into the presence of God.

The history of the pagan AGAPE (Marzeah in Amos) was that the women claimed that MOON BLOOD worked magic and in one devious way or another, willingly or unwillingly the MEN were forced to SIP the nectar. By excluding the wafting of menstrual blood from the School of Christ you could guarantee that the MEN would not suddenly turn out to be BOYS who let the WOMEN teach over you and she uses the devious means by using a TUNE: "People set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple minded" perhaps with God's permissive will.

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Bill
Bill

October 29th, 2013, 10:59 pm #130

Wow, I see that Donnie edited the "Header Title" message after the discussion was basically concluded. Such an action coming from Donnie is quite a surprise!
I think Donnie still wants "discussion" to continue regarding the header title, but it looks like the topic has switched instead to the Trinity...again. Even that subject has run its course, IMO. There is only so much that either side can argue about a subject, after which recycling of older arguments begins. When that happens, further discussion is no longer fruitful and nothing more is gained. It's then time to find other topics for discussion.
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