Bill
Bill

October 13th, 2013, 9:15 pm #11

As Jesus said, He "came down from heaven" to be on earth. God called Him into EARTHLY existence when He was born. Yet from the Scriptures, Jesus obviously existed spiritually with God in heaven long before Jesus came to earth as a human being. So, Ken, lets' not try to twist the Scriptures to fit your preconceived notion that Jesus didn't exist AT ALL until He was born on earth. The Scriptures have proven your notion null and void. The best thing for you to do is to own up to your error and believe what Jesus said about Himself in the Scriptures. Of course, it's your prerogative to deny what Jesus said, but you would be setting a very bad example for yourself and this site.
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Bill
Bill

October 13th, 2013, 9:23 pm #12

Bill, I thought it to be impossible for us to agree on anything...However,



I agree with Bill on this issue. I don't see how Donnie and Ken can refute the scripture that you listed.
When people have preconceived notions about things, it's embarrassing and often very difficult for them to change their minds when unequivocal proof stares them in their faces and utterly destroys those notions. That applies to the erroneous, preconceived notion that Jesus never existed AT ALL until He was born on earth. The Scriptures say that He existed in heaven before coming to earth. If people want to hold on to their erroneous preconceived notions, it's their prerogative, unfortunately.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 13th, 2013, 10:56 pm #13

Ken, I was sitting on the front row at Church. I was wearing a maroon colored suit, white shirt, and tie with a black hound's-tooth pattern.

Ken, did you go to Church? Enjoy the ballgame.
I do personally certify that the most primitive in the pre-post-literate period knew that:

Loud music was known to INTEND to attack and hurt. It was known to make LEARNING impossible because "learning hurts" and false teachers substitute music to divert.

Loud music was--then and now--known to be the result of men who "set their lies to deceive the simple minded."

Why should I subject myself to that which induces a DRUG HIGH beyond the reach of medication to relieve?

And pay them too?

I can also affirm that probably more than half of the population (as the Greeks knew) are BURDEN LADED meaning songs that "create spiritual anxiety through religious ceremonial. Paul outlawed that before it is possible to hold, in his words, synagogue where the direct command is "to use one mind and one mouth to teach that which is written for our learning."

While the men playing the SHELL GAME and making WORSHIP WARS to steal sheep, the population has increased 1 or 2 Billions. Animals do that to defend their turf.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 13th, 2013, 11:18 pm #14

Ken, you're not denying what Jesus said, that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth, are you? The verses I cited absolutely prove that Jesus existed and lived with God in heaven before Jesus was ever born as a human being on earth. Those verses shatter any preconceived notions that you and Donnie may have had about Jesus in that matter. You cannot deny what Jesus told us about Himself.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There is no denial in the expression "came down from heaven" as an occurrence. But "coming down from heaven" does not have the same meaning as "existing."

The only correct portion of your statement above is that "Jesus was ever born as a human being on earth." That was it. The rest of it is fallacious deductive reasoning.

Nothing is contradictory when the first chapters of John is taken in context. Your quote is from John 3:12-13 -- but that needs to be understood in conjunction with John 1:1,2,14.

Remember:

(1) That it was "the Word" (LOGOS) IN THE BEGINNING;
(2) That "the Word" was with God;
(3) That "the Word" was God (original text says: "God was the Word.")

Take a look at (3) alone where the original text says, "God was the Word." Now, try substituting your preconceived notion of "the Word" being "Jesus." Plus, remember that there is ONLY ONE GOD.

You would come up with "And God was Jesus." How does that sound to you?

Let's stay with what the Scripture says: It was "LOGOS" that was in the beginning with God; it was "LOGOS" that was God. Then, it was LOGOS that was made flesh (John 1:14).

So, it was "LOGOS" (the Word) that was in the beginning [in existence] who came down from heaven [an event or occurrence] to be made flesh [a transformation] and become Jesus [now only beginning his existence].

Key word for the day: CONTINUUM --

(1) LOGOS was in the beginning [there was no "Son of God" and no "Lord and Christ" -- not yet] ... until 2 millenniums ago when ...

(2) LOGOS [the Word] was made flesh. Jesus, was made both Lord and Christ by God the Father.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 13th, 2013, 11:35 pm #15

In several other threads, there have been arguments stating that Jesus did not exist at all until He was born on earth some 2,000 years ago. The Scriptures say otherwise:

"If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:12-13 KJV).

Jesus says that, just as He had first come down from heaven to be on earth, so He will ascend back into heaven.

"As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever" (John 57-58 KJV).

As the manna came down from heaven, Jesus describes Himself as the living bread that "came down from heaven" to be on earth.

"When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" (John 6:61-62 KJV).

Jesus tells us that He will ascend back into heaven "where he was before." Before when? Before He was born as a human being on earth. The verses above are especially important, for they unequivocably prove that Jesus had lived in heaven with God before Jesus came to earth to be born as a human being. When the Word was made flesh, Donnie's "Jesus was made Jesus" became a reality. Even though Jesus was born on earth around 2,000 years ago, He had long lived with God in heaven before then.

The Scriptures have spoken. Let them put an end to this matter.





==============================

"No Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."

<font size="4">That we may refer to as the opposing argument.

First of all, please notice that the above premise has not been altered. It is not generally the policy of this forum to modify the title nor the contents of an original message being used as the premise of the entire thread. (Unless, of course, the premise is unclear, and it needs further explanation.)

Due to the manner in which the "title" of the thread as initially published conveyed the message of a particular dogma -- which is debatable -- it is not our intent to leave the reader the impression that it is the dogma this website endorses.

We are here to discuss.
</font>

ConcernedMembers
The ISSUE was/is: "Was Jesus of Nazareth a literal "begotten" son of God from all eternity. Was HE a member of a "god family"? Was He EQUAL but SEPARATE from the FATHER god and the Spirit god? Was God THREE centers of consciousness each with their unique talent but were in COMMUNION so that they all thought alike?

Christ is not a GOD word but was the promised MESSIAH. No one ever thought that Messiah was a member of the god family: you would probably have been executed if you denied all of the clear statements that THERE IS ONE GOD.

John 7:42 Hath not the scripture said,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
That Christ cometh of the seed of David,
.....and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
.....which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;


Jesus became the son Mary because God worked a MIRACLE. God did not put a pre-existing Jesus OF Nazareth into Mary but sparked the EGG within Mary (the seed of a woman) into dividing. Otherwise, some bright person would have said "Jesus OF heaven."

Romans 1:4 And DECLARED to be the Son of God with power,
.....according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


He was not the Son of God until God made him to be His ONLY human generated MAN not created without a man. This is to validate prophecy: No king was to set on the throne from the SEED of Jechoniah. The issue is not any more than a virgin birth as it is to PROVE prophecy.

While all of those for Whom Jesus was sent to search out of the masses are FROM ABOVE and not OF THIS WORLD, Jesus was unique in that God BREATHED His Spirit (Breath) to INSTRUCT us in a School of Christ: those OF THE WORLD were doing "worship services" this morning TO WHICH Jesus said the Kingdom does not come.

</font>
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 13th, 2013, 11:48 pm #16

Some will still argue that because the name "Jesus" doesn't appear anywhere in the Old Testament, then Jesus didn't exist in heaven during Old Testament times. That's not surprising, because Jesus' time to come to earth had not arrived. But unless people are totally stubborn and blatantly deny Scripture, we cannot overlook the FACT that Jesus Himself told us in the Scriptures cited above that He "came down from heaven" to be on earth, but only at God's chosen time. Jesus lived in heaven with God for how long before His birth on earth? Since time immemorial. Therefore, the argument about Jesus not being in the Old Testament has no merit.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]You say: "Jesus lived in heaven with God" -- any proof?

I didn't realize that it was Jesus, instead of "the Word" (LOGOS), that was IN THE BEGINNING with God.

I also didn't realize that:

(1) Jesus lived in heaven with God -- that was Life No. 1;
(2) Jesus lived on earth [again] with Joseph and Mary -- that was Life No. 2.

Two lives?

No, Bill, it is correct to say that Jesus or Christ or Jesus Christ does not appear in the Old Testament. NEITHER DOES THE "SON OF GOD."[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 13th, 2013, 11:58 pm #17

Ken, I don't know why you're citing so many verses OTHER than what Jesus explicitly told us about His coming "down from heaven" to be on earth. Do you think the verses you cite in some way "cover up" what Jesus told us? Why don't you and Donnie just admit that your preconceived notions about Jesus in this matter were completely wrong and way out there in left field? Just be glad that Jesus has always been eternal since time immemorial and "came down from heaven" to earth.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]We find that expression in II Kings 1:10,12.

Are you assuming that the fire's coexistence with God was since the beginning?[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 14th, 2013, 12:15 am #18

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]You say: "Jesus lived in heaven with God" -- any proof?

I didn't realize that it was Jesus, instead of "the Word" (LOGOS), that was IN THE BEGINNING with God.

I also didn't realize that:

(1) Jesus lived in heaven with God -- that was Life No. 1;
(2) Jesus lived on earth [again] with Joseph and Mary -- that was Life No. 2.

Two lives?

No, Bill, it is correct to say that Jesus or Christ or Jesus Christ does not appear in the Old Testament. NEITHER DOES THE "SON OF GOD."[/color]
That's true: in the Old Testament God spoke through the PROPHETS. The prophets were guided by the Spirit OF Christ. However, in these last days God speaks through His SON. His Creative Son, according to the trinity inventors was God's WORD. When you breath spirit you beget a Son of yourself. This Word was the creative force. Shades of string and membrane theories.

If Jesus had been God's SON then He would have spoken through HIM and not the Prophets.

Now, God speaks through the WORDS of Christ which ARE Spirit and Life. If God is not capable of putting His Words or Spirit or Mind into written text, why would anyone be silly enough to pay for someone with no Biblical role or dole to write THEIR substitute scripture: that was the pattern of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites as self-speakers, singers and instrument players.

Paraphrasing Paul, fools love to be fooled.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 14th, 2013, 1:24 am #19

As Jesus said, He "came down from heaven" to be on earth. God called Him into EARTHLY existence when He was born. Yet from the Scriptures, Jesus obviously existed spiritually with God in heaven long before Jesus came to earth as a human being. So, Ken, lets' not try to twist the Scriptures to fit your preconceived notion that Jesus didn't exist AT ALL until He was born on earth. The Scriptures have proven your notion null and void. The best thing for you to do is to own up to your error and believe what Jesus said about Himself in the Scriptures. Of course, it's your prerogative to deny what Jesus said, but you would be setting a very bad example for yourself and this site.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill says: "Jesus obviously existed spiritually with God in heaven long before Jesus came to earth as a human being."

No. There is ONLY ONE GOD.

In the beginning was "the Word" (LOGOS -- spoken, uttered, articulated, said).

In the beginning "the Word" (LOGOS) was with God.

In the beginning "the Word" was God; in the original text: "God was the Word."

Therefore, "the Word" and "God" are interchangeable.

What "GOD SAID:" was evident at creation:
-- GOD SAID: "Let there be light" ... and that was Day 1.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 2.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 3.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 4.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 5.
-- GOD SAID: "Let ..." and that was Day 6.

The PARALLEL: John 1 also speaks of: (1) "IN THE BEGINNING" as well as of "THE LIGHT."

This time "the Word" [LOGOS--spoken} was made flesh. "The Word" BECAME Jesus (per John 1:14).

Bill, you really have a "pre-existing" issue.

What occurred was a REAL TRANSFORMATION:

(1) FROM: "the Word" [LOGOS] in the beginning
(2) TO: being made FLESH [becoming Jesus] 2000 years ago.

Otherwise, you will have to live with this: that Jesus BECAME Jesus.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 14th, 2013, 1:42 am #20

When people have preconceived notions about things, it's embarrassing and often very difficult for them to change their minds when unequivocal proof stares them in their faces and utterly destroys those notions. That applies to the erroneous, preconceived notion that Jesus never existed AT ALL until He was born on earth. The Scriptures say that He existed in heaven before coming to earth. If people want to hold on to their erroneous preconceived notions, it's their prerogative, unfortunately.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Nope.

The Scripture cannot be destroyed.

Only after his birth was Jesus called "the Son of God."

Only after his birth was he made both Lord and Christ.

Did God send His only begotten Son IN THE BEGINNING?[/color]
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