Bammel Church of Christ in Houston, Tx

SeekingtopleaseGodonly
SeekingtopleaseGodonly

July 16th, 2006, 12:23 am #61

Change agents have hit Bammel Church of Christ in Houston, TxThis has been going on for the past 20 + years. I use to attend there but no longer because of this. They have a praise team and the men are having some kind of Power Breakfasts and they hold a mens prayer time in "a COMMUNITY room". They have their "connection groups" meeting in homes on sunday night and throughout the week. They have once a year have a dedication for the new babies in the congregation. They have a woman as a minister to the women. I know there is more. They are starting a bible class teaching from the book "Experiencing God". Only 10 to this class. I was attending there for along time and didn't realize what was going on. They also have a class where they do majority of the time is singing of contemporary songs, and then they have a little time for a very short devotional. This is happening also to Spring Woodlands Church of Christ in the Woodlands, Tx where we use to attend as well. They are fixing to build a 10 million + dollar building up north somewhere. They have their praise teams standing in front of the audience singing their solos and clapping their hands. This freightens me. It is nothing but the devils work. They have had 2 splits that I know of. This is more powering than Jim Jones and his cult. I can't believe how people can be so blind and deaf about what is going on in these churches. They are so wrapped up in being entertained.
<FONT SIZE=4>Another one of Satan's soldiers rears his...head.</FONT>

<FONT SIZE=3>Would you also call this directive an "attitude", Chris?

"Get thee behind me, SATAN: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men."

Get your "parallel" Bible out and answer your own questions!

You are not sincerely seeking the truth; you are just seeking a fight!


2Tm:2:16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Tm:2:17: And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;


I don't have time to play games with you!

Praise God for David Rhoades and other members on this site who are sincerely "seeking to please God only" and who are boldly defending The Lord's Church while the soldiers of Satan try their best to tear down what the Lord has built by attacking his Word.

They will not succeed.

1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

M'r:7:6: He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
M'r:7:7: Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


If you can find one example in the New Testament where an early Christian lifted up "Holy hands" while SINGING praises to the Lord in a worship service than you just go right ahead and lift up your "Holy Hands".

We who are "seeking to please God only" will follow the examples of the early Christians.</FONT>

In Jesus's name



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Chris
Chris

July 16th, 2006, 7:20 pm #62

SeekingtopleaseGodonly,

I am extremely happy to see that you have returned to this discussion and posted your words of wisdom for us all to view.. I will refer to your post in my response so that no one who views this discussion will think that I am avoiding you questions or thoughts..

First, my answer to your question of whether or not I would call Jesus' statement to Peter an attitude is NO... As you and I both know, Jesus was tempted in all aspects of life without sinning.. However, my issue was not with Jesus, or with his statement.. Apparantly, however, you feel that you are on the same level as our Lord and Savior because you proceeded to demonstrate your abilities to read my heart and motives.. By accusing me of simply seeking a fight and not the truth and by letting all of us know you didn't have time to play games with me you demonstrated your unwillingness to follow the Word of God by giving an answer to everyone that asketh a reason of the hope that is in you.. Rather than heeding that command you chose to hide behind one that was more in accordance with your judgement of my motives and heart -- avoid vain babblings.. If I had the abilities you demonstrate I would have avoided this discussion all together and just avoided your babblings to begin with.. Unfortunately, I am human not divine..

Second, I only have a few words to say regarding your comment about David Rhoades and the others on this site who are sincerely seeking to please God only and boldly defending the Lord's church... I say, Amen... For those who are sincerely seeking -- keep seeking, don't swallow hook, line and sinker everything that is penned (typed) from anyone, even if he claims to be a seeker of the truth (myself included)..

Third, as far as reading my "parallel" Bible and looking for a passage that tells me the early church lifted holy hands while singing songs in a worship service is concerned, I admit I can't find such a passage.. However, I do find, in my KJV, a passage where Paul states, "I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." In your doing Bible things in Bible ways, do you lift holy hands while praying??

NOW, "SeekingtopleaseGodonly", would you please show me what your Bible authorizes you to do while singing songs in a worship service of the church??? And, I will emphasize the phrase DURING a worship service of the church in the New Testament..

Also, what amazes me is that you say I can go ahead and lift my holy hands.. What is so amazing to me about that statement is that for all your claims about knowing who and what I am -- Satan's soldier, one seeking a fight not seeking the truth, one only playing games and not a sincere seeker of God -- you've TOTALLY shown your ignorance (lack of education about Chris) because I DO NOT LIFT UP HOLY HANDS WHILE SINGING SONGS TO MY GOD, NEVER HAVE... How does that taste "ye that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, who shall bring me down to the ground... the pride of thine heart hath decieved thee." (Obadiah 3)

Hopefully the next time you address me you will apologize for accusing me of being one of Satan's soldiers, one not seeking truth, only wanting to play games... I was simply wanting someone on this forum who claims to defend the faith to answer the questions asked by "B" in his original post... Yet, NO ONE HAS... I believed "B" to be a sincere seeker, who wanted to know why those things were thought sinful... Yet, he was attacked and to this post his questions remain unanswered... And you wonder why I get so frustrated over people who quickly make judgements and attack without knowing all the situation.. People like you remind me of the lady who came to me following one of my sermons during a gospel meeting and said, "I went and knocked doors today and invited a member of the Baptist chuch to our service to hear you preach tonight." I asked her if the lady accepted her invitation. She said, "No, and I just had to tell her before I left that she was lost and headed for hell..." May God forgive all of us of our poor attitudes and pride...

SeekingtopleaseGodonly, I have no ill will toward you.. I have simply tried to address an attitude of attack the person and avoid the questions that appears to affect so many who partake in the discussions on this site..

Again (third time) I await with open eyes for someone to answer those questions...




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SeekingtopleaseGodonly
SeekingtopleaseGodonly

July 17th, 2006, 3:17 am #63

Change agents have hit Bammel Church of Christ in Houston, TxThis has been going on for the past 20 + years. I use to attend there but no longer because of this. They have a praise team and the men are having some kind of Power Breakfasts and they hold a mens prayer time in "a COMMUNITY room". They have their "connection groups" meeting in homes on sunday night and throughout the week. They have once a year have a dedication for the new babies in the congregation. They have a woman as a minister to the women. I know there is more. They are starting a bible class teaching from the book "Experiencing God". Only 10 to this class. I was attending there for along time and didn't realize what was going on. They also have a class where they do majority of the time is singing of contemporary songs, and then they have a little time for a very short devotional. This is happening also to Spring Woodlands Church of Christ in the Woodlands, Tx where we use to attend as well. They are fixing to build a 10 million + dollar building up north somewhere. They have their praise teams standing in front of the audience singing their solos and clapping their hands. This freightens me. It is nothing but the devils work. They have had 2 splits that I know of. This is more powering than Jim Jones and his cult. I can't believe how people can be so blind and deaf about what is going on in these churches. They are so wrapped up in being entertained.
Did Jesus apologize to Peter?

No?

Then I will follow King Jesus.

Who will you follow?

I will not apologize to you for calling you a soldier of Satan. You (and others) need to know when Satan is using preachers as tools to practice his deception and fight his battles.

This is why the Church is having so many problems today.

Confusion!

Confusion from the "author of Confusion" and his soldiers (even if the soldiers don't even know that they are his soldiers!

There are too many preachers like you who are afraid to stand up and tell it like it is. Condoning things that you would not even do yourself. If you feel that you
don't have to raise your "Holy Hands" while singing praises to Lord in a worship service than why do you think that the rest of the Church of Christ are commanded to do such?

Are you above them?

Are we as the Church of Christ commanded to raise our "Holy Hands" to the Lord while singing his praises in worship service?

These are your words Chris..


"Third, as far as reading my "parallel" Bible and looking for a passage that tells me the early church lifted holy hands while singing songs in a worship service is concerned, I admit I can't find such a passage.."


If you can't find it, then LEAVE IT ALONE! Period!

When we start adding stuff to God's Word we get in trouble.

Re:22:18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


If the Church was/is not commanded or instructed to do so, then you need to follow suit and proclaim the truth to the Church when you address them as their preacher.


These are more of your words Chris..

you've TOTALLY shown your ignorance (lack of education about Chris) because I DO NOT LIFT UP HOLY HANDS WHILE SINGING SONGS TO MY GOD, NEVER HAVE...

Don't be a Hypocrite!

Speak where the Word of God speaks.

Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col:2:21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?


Are you fighting for the Lord or are you fighting for the right to do whatever you and the world see to be fit to do in the Lord's Church?

M't:6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I believe you are trying to do good things for the Lord.

So was Peter when Jesus addressed him as Satan. Matt. 16:23

So was Moses when he lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote THE ROCK twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. Num. 30:11

These great men thought they also were doing good things for the Lord.

But who were they serving during these instances.

If you intend to be a soldier for Jesus, than be a soldier for Jesus!

Proverb:4:25: Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
Proverb:4:26: Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
Proverb:4:27: Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.


In Jesus's name.
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Chris
Chris

July 17th, 2006, 5:48 pm #64

SeekingtopleaseGodonly,

Again, I appreciate your taking the time to address my post… Below is my response to your latest contribution to this discussion; I will include ALL of your comments so that you don’t think that I am guilty of avoiding you, even though you continue to avoid answering my questions…

YOU WRITE: Did Jesus apologize to Peter? No? Then I will follow King Jesus. Who will you follow? I will not apologize to you for calling you a soldier of Satan. You (and others) need to know when Satan is using preachers as tools to practice his deception and fight his battles. This is why the Church is having so many problems today. Confusion! Confusion from the "author of Confusion" and his soldiers (even if the soldiers don't even know that they are his soldiers!

There are too many preachers like you who are afraid to stand up and tell it like it is. Condoning things that you would not even do yourself. If you feel that you
don't have to raise your "Holy Hands" while singing praises to Lord in a worship service than why do you think that the rest of the Church of Christ are commanded to do such?

MY RESPONSE: First, you again bring up the incident with Jesus and Peter as you seek to make the point that you are imitating Christ… Unfortunately, you fail to see that you are comparing apples and oranges… To begin with, as sincere as Peter’s comment was it was obviously against the plan of God… Jesus, according to God’s plan would be turned over to the authorities and crucified – the salvation of man depended on it… That, my friend, is why Jesus strongly rebuked him… In stating that he would not allow Jesus be taken, Peter unknowingly joins Satan’s side. My questions, on the other hand --which still go unanswered by you, may or may not be sinful – that is why I asked them in this forum so that you self-righteous defenders of the faith could give me book chapter and verse for them being sinful since it is YOU that claims they are… YET, you refuse to do so…

To make it easier for you, here are the questions I asked – please answer them… You say I am afraid to stand up and tell it like it is – let me hear you do it… It appears to me that the reason you won’t is because answering these questions truthfully will make you look liberal and you can’t stand that… You would rather choke on your pride than admit that the position of a person’s arms and hands makes no difference while singing a song to God… By the way, what position are you in while singing a song??? Eyes open, closed??? Arms and hands stiffly tucked to your side??? What is the Biblical position for our bodies while singing praises to God??? PLEASE BE THE STAND UP DEFENDER YOU CLAIM TO BE AND GIVE ME A THUS SAITH THE LORD FOR YOUR BODY POSITION WHILE SINGING SONGS??? By the way, does your song leader use arm motion to direct singing??? Where is his authority???

Questions:

Is it a sin to raise “holy hands” to God during the singing of a song??
Is it wrong to have a men's prayer breakfast?
Is it wrong to have group studies in individual homes?
Is it wrong for women to minister (teach or serve) to women? or others?
Is it wrong to sing contemporary songs? If so, were any of the songs you sing at worship once contemporary?

YOU WRITE: Are you above them? Are we as the Church of Christ commanded to raise our "Holy Hands" to the Lord while singing his praises in worship service? These are your words Chris.. "Third, as far as reading my "parallel" Bible and looking for a passage that tells me the early church lifted holy hands while singing songs in a worship service is concerned, I admit I can't find such a passage…" If you can't find it, then LEAVE IT ALONE! Period! When we start adding stuff to God's Word we get in trouble. Re:22:18: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

If the Church was/is not commanded or instructed to do so, then you need to follow suit and proclaim the truth to the Church when you address them as their preacher.

MY RESPONSE: SeekingtopleaseGodonly, open your eyes to THIS discussion and the comments you are making… WHEN did I ever say that raising hands during singing was a command of God??? I just reread all of my posts pertaining this discussion and discovered that I made that comment a total of ZERO times… Yet, you continue to address this topic as though I am advocating that raising hands during singing is a command of God… What I am advocating, and don’t miss this, IS THAT THE POSITION OF A PERSON’S ARMS AND HANDS DON’T ARE NOT IMPORTANT as long as those arms and hands are doing nothing vulgar or sinful… Yet, you are defending the idea that merely raising one’s hands toward God while singing a song of praise is sinful… Am I the ONLY one who sees the folly of his argument??? For all of you defenders of the faith who read this, please inform me what position I am to be in when I sing praises to God… Am I to sit, stand, kneel or lie down flat??? Should the congregation dog-pile in the center of the auditorium??? Someone HELP???

I had a lady tell me that whenever she visits Wal-Mart she prays that there will be a parking space close to the front for her to use… She said that if she finds no such parking space she knows it was not God’s will for her life that she have one… Personally, I have to admire her willingness to turn over every aspect of her life to God… However, it is my personal belief that God isn’t concerned with whether or not we have a parking space close to the front so that we won’t have to walk very far… I believe God is that way also about the position we are in during singing a song of praise to Him… Whether it be with arms stuck to our sides, in our pockets, glued to the top of our head or raised toward him; IT IS THE POSITION OF THE HEART AND MIND that God is concerned with, always has been… Just asked the Pharisees… Better yet, just look in the mirror…

Oh, and for your Revelations 22:18 comment, what am I adding to the word that you are not adding also because of your bodily position while you sing???

YOU WRITE: These are more of your words Chris… you've TOTALLY shown your ignorance (lack of education about Chris) because I DO NOT LIFT UP HOLY HANDS WHILE SINGING SONGS TO MY GOD, NEVER HAVE...

Don't be a Hypocrite! Speak where the Word of God speaks.

Col:2:20: Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col:2:21: (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col:2:22: Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Are you fighting for the Lord or are you fighting for the right to do whatever you and the world see to be fit to do in the Lord's Church?

M't:6:24: No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

MY RESPONSE: I appreciate your encouraging me not to be a hypocrite… I remember Jesus’ comments about those fellows and I want no part of their reward… or should I type, their punishment… BUT, your very statement beckons for you to do the same thing… Speak where the Word of God speaks and show me what position is God approved for singing praises to Him…

As far as whether or not I am fighting for the Lord and His church is concerned, you can be assured that the battle I am waging via this discussion is for the Lord and His church… Hopefully you will wake up and realize the folly of your argument…

YOU WRITE: I believe you are trying to do good things for the Lord. So was Peter when Jesus addressed him as Satan. Matt. 16:23. So was Moses when he lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote THE ROCK twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. Num. 30:11. These great men thought they also were doing good things for the Lord. But who were they serving during these instances. If you intend to be a soldier for Jesus, than be a soldier for Jesus!

Proverb:4:25: Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee.
Proverb:4:26: Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established.
Proverb:4:27: Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

In Jesus's name.

MY RESPONSE: I agree with you, SeekingtopleaseGodonly, that both Peter and Moses were good men seeking to do good things but made mistakes… However, so was Saul of Tarsus… Fortunately God opened Saul’s eyes so that he could see the error of his ways… Perhaps, and hopefully so, the scales will be removed from your eyes so that you can see the error of your ways…

Since you claim to only speak where the Bible speaks, please answer ALL of the questions that I have asked in this post… Please supply book, chapter and verse… Give me the same respect by addressing all of my post as I have you…



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SeekingtopleaseGodonly
SeekingtopleaseGodonly

July 19th, 2006, 5:01 am #65

Change agents have hit Bammel Church of Christ in Houston, TxThis has been going on for the past 20 + years. I use to attend there but no longer because of this. They have a praise team and the men are having some kind of Power Breakfasts and they hold a mens prayer time in "a COMMUNITY room". They have their "connection groups" meeting in homes on sunday night and throughout the week. They have once a year have a dedication for the new babies in the congregation. They have a woman as a minister to the women. I know there is more. They are starting a bible class teaching from the book "Experiencing God". Only 10 to this class. I was attending there for along time and didn't realize what was going on. They also have a class where they do majority of the time is singing of contemporary songs, and then they have a little time for a very short devotional. This is happening also to Spring Woodlands Church of Christ in the Woodlands, Tx where we use to attend as well. They are fixing to build a 10 million + dollar building up north somewhere. They have their praise teams standing in front of the audience singing their solos and clapping their hands. This freightens me. It is nothing but the devils work. They have had 2 splits that I know of. This is more powering than Jim Jones and his cult. I can't believe how people can be so blind and deaf about what is going on in these churches. They are so wrapped up in being entertained.
<FONT SIZE=5>Hear ye, Hear ye!</FONT>

<FONT SIZE=3>From now on, everybody who attends a Church of Christ worship service are allowed to raise "Holy Hands", not only during prayers, but also during all songs, all scripture readings, all preaching, all during the Lord’s supper, all during the Sunday morning announcements and especially during the closing prayer.

(Whether your hands are "Holy" are not is your own business. Whether you are a member of the Lord’s church are not is your own business because who are we to judge you)

We are required to do this from now on, not because it was written to be the "will" of God, but because it was written to be the "will" of Paul and is ok with Chris.

This scripture is all the justification you need.


1Tm:2:8: I (PAUL) will therefore that men "pray" (during worship service also) every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Also, from now on, whatever you want to do in the church service is Ok, just as long as there is no specific scripture written to prohibit that "specific" act and your heart is sincere. If you want to bring your evil brother-in-law who is strung-out on crack to service, it is ok for even him to raise his "Holy Hands" during "7-11 hypnotic songs" (even if his hands may still be holding a pipe at the time - {Well,there's no specific scripture against it right Chris?}) and every other part of the service ALSO, as long as he considers his hands to be "holy" during his state of highness from the crack, and (most importantly) he faithfully pledges big bucks toward the million dollar building projects of this high and mighty congregation of ours and if he doesn't question any thing that we do (who's running this outfit anyway?).

We have big money to make and big salaries to pay and nothing will hinder us from reaching our "secret" goal of getting rid of that dorn "Church of Christ" once-and-for-all (or at least corrupting it until it is unrecognizable any more as the Lord's true Church),no matter how many years of subtle, minor changes it might take, and as long as we can continue to fool any and every body who will fall for this "slowly boil the frog and he won't know it until it is to late "tactic ".

Chris and the Community Church (of Satan) movement has spoken!

(Oops! Sorry, I got carried away. I know this is suppose to be a secret, oh well!)

Futhermore, If you can not show Chris a Scripture in the Bible that can specifically dispute this "amendment" then let it be ratified from this day forward.

Chris has spoken.



Does this about sum-up your point-of-view on the matter Chris?</FONT>


M't:13:22: He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

In Jesus's name
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Chris
Chris

July 19th, 2006, 7:17 pm #66

SeekingtopleaseGodonly...

I appreciate your taking the time to address my last response... OOPS!!! I am sorry, I didn't mean to "thank you" for something you didn't do... Would that be for the fourth or fifth time now??? However, I will "thank you" for the contribution you have made to this discussion because you have proven without doubt the comment I made in my first post... If you have trouble recalling that comment, here it is: If you can't defeat the argument, attack the man!!! I am not a prophet, or the son of a prophet, but you have to admit I called that one correctly... As far as your comments are concerned, here is my response...

First, you would be more correct to say that people were free, from the first century, to raise their hands in worship to God, or to not raise them in worship to God; because either would be just as scriptural as sticking them in their pockets, holding them behind their backs, clapsing them together in front of their bodies or whatever position they chose to put them while worshipping God...

Second, I never said you were "required" to lift your hands in worship to God... If you choose to do so, I won't condemn you... I simply requested that someone answer the questions that were asked by "B" in his original post... One of those questions pertained to "holy hands"... You have taken the stance that such is wrong, but to this post have not offered anything in scripture to support your defense... You haven't even told me what YOU believe is the scriptural position of a person's hands and arms during worship...

Third, I didn't offer 1 Tim. 2:8 as authority for raising hands during worship service... What I said was that Paul spoke of "lifting up holy hands" in prayer... And, I asked you if you did that??? You, of course, did not answer...

But, as far as your comment inserted (below, in all CAPS) in that verse is concerned, it is in the wrong place... you wrote, "I (Paul) will therefore that men "pray" (DURING WORSHIP SERVICE ALSO) every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting... If you are going to add that phrase, at least put it behind the words "every where."

Fourth, I pray that you would invite your evil brother-in-law who is strung out on crack to join you at worship... Sounds like he needs the Father in his life... By the way, unless the law has been changed, possessing crack is illegal, therefore sinful... Are you equating lifting hands to smoking crack??? If so, put down your pipe, get on your knees and ask God to forgive your sinful actions, check yourself into rehab and clean yourself up... THEN, come back and let's address this issue...

Fifth, PLEASE provide for me, either from Scripture or from history, a detailed account of the activities when the church assemble to worship... I am sure you have one of these detailed outlines of a service since you know for a fact what position the arms/hands of worshippers were in... Otherwise, I am sure you wouldn't accuse me of trying to corrupt the church until it is unrecognizable as the Lord's TRUE church... Would you??? So, just produce the detailed account, including the position of worshippers arms and hands, and I will back off...

Sixth, your comments missed the mark as far as summing up my views... I would be happy to discuss my views with you or anyone who asks... But, don't expect me to do so UNTIL you begin addressing the questions "B" originally asked, you know, the ones I have repeatedly asked you to answer...

But, I honestly believe we will hear "The CUBS win the World Series" before you address those questions... Perhaps even the second coming of Christ...


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Lance James
Lance James

July 19th, 2006, 9:24 pm #67

<FONT SIZE=5>Hear ye, Hear ye!</FONT>

<FONT SIZE=3>From now on, everybody who attends a Church of Christ worship service are allowed to raise "Holy Hands", not only during prayers, but also during all songs, all scripture readings, all preaching, all during the Lord’s supper, all during the Sunday morning announcements and especially during the closing prayer.

(Whether your hands are "Holy" are not is your own business. Whether you are a member of the Lord’s church are not is your own business because who are we to judge you)

We are required to do this from now on, not because it was written to be the "will" of God, but because it was written to be the "will" of Paul and is ok with Chris.

This scripture is all the justification you need.


1Tm:2:8: I (PAUL) will therefore that men "pray" (during worship service also) every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Also, from now on, whatever you want to do in the church service is Ok, just as long as there is no specific scripture written to prohibit that "specific" act and your heart is sincere. If you want to bring your evil brother-in-law who is strung-out on crack to service, it is ok for even him to raise his "Holy Hands" during "7-11 hypnotic songs" (even if his hands may still be holding a pipe at the time - {Well,there's no specific scripture against it right Chris?}) and every other part of the service ALSO, as long as he considers his hands to be "holy" during his state of highness from the crack, and (most importantly) he faithfully pledges big bucks toward the million dollar building projects of this high and mighty congregation of ours and if he doesn't question any thing that we do (who's running this outfit anyway?).

We have big money to make and big salaries to pay and nothing will hinder us from reaching our "secret" goal of getting rid of that dorn "Church of Christ" once-and-for-all (or at least corrupting it until it is unrecognizable any more as the Lord's true Church),no matter how many years of subtle, minor changes it might take, and as long as we can continue to fool any and every body who will fall for this "slowly boil the frog and he won't know it until it is to late "tactic ".

Chris and the Community Church (of Satan) movement has spoken!

(Oops! Sorry, I got carried away. I know this is suppose to be a secret, oh well!)

Futhermore, If you can not show Chris a Scripture in the Bible that can specifically dispute this "amendment" then let it be ratified from this day forward.

Chris has spoken.



Does this about sum-up your point-of-view on the matter Chris?</FONT>


M't:13:22: He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

In Jesus's name
I have been following your ridiculous debate with Chris, and I have to acknowledge that you are correct.

Yes, bringing an evil, strung-out crack addict to service is a wonderful idea. Wow, what a novel concept, bringing the lost to Christ. That sounds awesome to me, I think I might just give it a shot.

Oh, but wait, you were being sarcastic weren't you?

Well was Jesus being sarcastic with the woman at the well? Was the parable of the Prodigal son just a funny joke? How about the good Samaritan? that was pretty funny too wasn't it? And I'm sure that he was kidding around with the thief on the cross!!

Bottom line is this...Jesus loves us all, even the lost, so guess what? I'm going to do my best to follow HIM!!!

Now, sir, I say this to you...quoting our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

I pray that you and your family will one day share the wonderful spectacle of Heaven, and I hope to hold you in a loving embrace as a brother would his own brother. You can find me hanging out with my fellow brother in Christ, his name is Chris.

Now, if you must assume things about me such as you have with Chris, please feel free to do so, but I may not be able to see them as I will be focused on the Light.

Blessed be ye.
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SeekingtopleaseGodonly
SeekingtopleaseGodonly

July 21st, 2006, 7:29 am #68

Change agents have hit Bammel Church of Christ in Houston, TxThis has been going on for the past 20 + years. I use to attend there but no longer because of this. They have a praise team and the men are having some kind of Power Breakfasts and they hold a mens prayer time in "a COMMUNITY room". They have their "connection groups" meeting in homes on sunday night and throughout the week. They have once a year have a dedication for the new babies in the congregation. They have a woman as a minister to the women. I know there is more. They are starting a bible class teaching from the book "Experiencing God". Only 10 to this class. I was attending there for along time and didn't realize what was going on. They also have a class where they do majority of the time is singing of contemporary songs, and then they have a little time for a very short devotional. This is happening also to Spring Woodlands Church of Christ in the Woodlands, Tx where we use to attend as well. They are fixing to build a 10 million + dollar building up north somewhere. They have their praise teams standing in front of the audience singing their solos and clapping their hands. This freightens me. It is nothing but the devils work. They have had 2 splits that I know of. This is more powering than Jim Jones and his cult. I can't believe how people can be so blind and deaf about what is going on in these churches. They are so wrapped up in being entertained.
You guys are good "Change Agents", ya'll should tell who ever is in charge of your autonomous Community Church to give ya'll a raise!

Right-out-of-the-Textbook how you guys are standing up for the "Community Church (of Satan) Movement". I bet that secret organization is proud of you.

BTW, I will take that as a "yes" in reference to the question I asked above,

"Does this about sum-up your point-of-view on the matter Chris?"

Re-read the post above again and correct me on the part that is wrong because I see you miss the whole point.

I’m not surprise that you missed it.(DELPHI, RIGHT CHRIS)

These are your words Chris.

"First, you would be more correct to say that people were free, from the first century, to raise their hands in worship to God, or to not raise them in worship to God; because either would be just as scriptural as sticking them in their pockets, holding them behind their backs, clapsing them together in front of their bodies or whatever position they chose to put them while worshipping God..."

Hmm…

So raising "Holy Hands" in our worship service to the almighty God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is now equivalent to "sticking them (holy hands) in their pockets, holding them ( holy hands ) behind their backs, or clapsing them ( holy hands ) together in front of their bodies" Chris?

Let's see here, hmm…

Raising "Holy Hands" in a worship service to the Lord while we sing praises to the Almighty God has now been put on the same level as raising your hand because you need to go use the restroom or putting your hands in your pockets.

Right, Chris?

Let's try something here.

Let's take this scripture and substitute Chris' suggested equivalent acts and see if it works.

Here's the original;


1Tm:2:8: I will therefore that men “pray” every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


Now the test versions;


1Tm:2:8: I will therefore that men “pray” every where, “sticking their hands in their pockets”, without wrath and doubting.


1Tm:2:8: I will therefore that men “pray” every where, “holding their hands behind their backs”, without wrath and doubting.


1Tm:2:8: I will therefore that men “pray” every where, “clapsing their hands in front of their bodies”, without wrath and doubting.



I don’t know Chris. It sounds kinda strange to me.



Well why don’t you try this and see if it works for your congregation?

Suggest this to your "worship leader". Suggest to him instead of having everyone in the praise team lift up their "holy hands" during the 7-11 hypnotic songs, maybe have the "praise team" lead the audience in sticking their (holy) hands in their pockets or behind their backs for the Lord; or maybe 'clapse their (holy) hands together in front of their bodies' in stead of lifting "Holy Hands" to the Almighty.

After all, what's the difference right Chris?


Chris, I have a question for you.

What does this scripture mean to you?


Ac:17:24: "God" that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Ac:17:25: "Neither is worshipped with men's hands", as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;


What exactly does this mean to you, Chris?

Who does the raising of the "Holy Hands" while singing praises to the Lord in a worship service to the Lord benefit?

Does it benefit our Almighty God?

Is everyone's hand holy all the time?


And what does this scripture mean to you?

Joh:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (NOT DECEIT)

You can have whatever kind of service that you want to have. That is exactly what you are going to do anyway.

That's between you and the Father.

I write so that others can see the folly of your actions and the subtility of you tactics, and so that others might be able to avoid the trap that you guys are setting for them.

They say if you put a frog in boiling hot water that it will try to jump out quickly because it recognizes that the water is hot.

But it you put the frog in water that it is accustomed to and then very slowly turn up the fire little by little, it will stay there until it too late or until it boils to death!


It's the same tactic used by you Change Agents.

Raising 'holy hands' to God during the singing of a song
'men's prayer breakfast'
'studies in individual homes'
'women to minister (teach or serve) to women or others'
'sing contemporary songs'


(Using these practices to help control and brainwash the victims, while sucking every cents the leaders can get from the victim’s pockets with guilt ridden pledges toward million dollar projects)

A little change here, then wait until it becomes the norm.
A little change there, then wait until it becomes ok in the eyes of the victims.

A little change here and a little change there.
Here a change, there a change, everywhere a chnge, change!


(Some poor members of the Church of Christ are going to just sit there and boil to death because they can't feel the temperture rising.)


It's all part of "the Delphi Technique"

The Delphi Technique. What Is It?

"The goal of the Delphi technique is to lead a targeted group of people to a predetermined outcome, while giving the illusion of taking public input and under the pretext of being accountable to the public."

How Delphi Technique leaders - (& Some Church Consultants) are instructed to deal with opposition
Lights, camera, action!

architect_selection_concerns - If you can't prove the speaker's points are wrong or invalid, attack him personally,. Also, accuse him of doing exactly what you are doing.

public_input - You've got to confuse the issue, make it hard for the opposing speakers to get their points across. Remember that everyone has their own equally valid opinions and suggestions (that can be disregarded).

designer_selection_process - Create your own reality. Say what you need to say to achieve your goals, other people can check the validity of your statements later. If no one questions you, you must have been right.

delphi_technique_bandwagon - Everybody's doing it. It may not be right but everybody's doing it,. You should too. Help us achieve a comfortable consensus...

school_concerns_no_comment - Ignore all questions that make you feel foolish or uncomfortable. Meeting adjourned.




Does this sound familiar Chris? It should because these are the evil tactics that you are using during your post !

I can see you are well-trained!


The goal of the Delphi technique

The goal of the Delphi technique is to lead a targeted group of people to a pre-determined outcome, while giving the illusion of taking public input under the pretext of being accountable to the public. For Delphi to work, it is critical that the targeted group be kept away from knowledgeable people who could lead them away from the Delphier's pre-determined outcome.

One variation of the Delphi technique is to use a series of meetings. The attendees are often given a number or a colored card when they enter the room, to determine at which table they are to sit. The purpose of this is to break up the groups of potentially knowledgeable people who arrive together so that they will be sitting with strangers and therefore be subdued.

"Typically, at each table is a facilitator, someone who will know which way to help "steer" the group. Usually, the people at each table are instructed to answer among themselves some of the questions and arrive at a table "consensus".






(Click here for the rest of the article,
http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/the_ ... warren.htm)




These "groups" are being manipulated and brainwashed!

‘men's prayer breakfast’
‘study groups in individual homes’
an assortment of ministry groups

Divide and conquer!

In order to control and manipulate the members of the Church!

Then 10 to 20 years later what do you have?

You have Satan’s substitute.

Only a shadow of what use to be the Church of Christ!

Headed by a bunch of Satan’s soldiers checking the checklist to see what’s next on the list of changes.

Waiting for just the right time when they can finally bring in the bands and really jam.

Deceit, manipulation, corruption, subtility,

all in the name of God!


Seeing just how far they can go before God puts an end to it.


Re:2:5: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Re:2:7: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.


In Jesus's Name
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 22nd, 2006, 1:22 am #69

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Seeking,

I wonder if concentrating on an issue [e.g., men lifting up “holy hands”] among many issues is a good example of the Delphi Technique. The arguments for it, including the highly misunderstood and changed-meaning of “the law of silence” [“… that it’s OK when the Scripture does NOT say ‘NOT TO’”] are very weak

The church of Jesus Christ is constantly under attack by change agents operating in the brotherhood. And the attacks coming from other religious faiths against Christ’s church are almost negligible in comparison to those by those who apostatize and attempt to transform the church as though God’s directives for the church needed transformation.

Indeed, you are correct that gradualism [the “frog” illustration], subtlety [behind-the-scenes planning of activities] and incrementalism [a little here, a little there, a little bit more] are very significant in carrying out the agents’ change methodologies.

Thanks for your excellent presentation. “An ounce of prevention is worth [MUCH MORE THAN] a pound of cure

Donnie</font>
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SeekingtopleaseGodonly
SeekingtopleaseGodonly

July 23rd, 2006, 1:22 am #70

Change agents have hit Bammel Church of Christ in Houston, TxThis has been going on for the past 20 + years. I use to attend there but no longer because of this. They have a praise team and the men are having some kind of Power Breakfasts and they hold a mens prayer time in "a COMMUNITY room". They have their "connection groups" meeting in homes on sunday night and throughout the week. They have once a year have a dedication for the new babies in the congregation. They have a woman as a minister to the women. I know there is more. They are starting a bible class teaching from the book "Experiencing God". Only 10 to this class. I was attending there for along time and didn't realize what was going on. They also have a class where they do majority of the time is singing of contemporary songs, and then they have a little time for a very short devotional. This is happening also to Spring Woodlands Church of Christ in the Woodlands, Tx where we use to attend as well. They are fixing to build a 10 million + dollar building up north somewhere. They have their praise teams standing in front of the audience singing their solos and clapping their hands. This freightens me. It is nothing but the devils work. They have had 2 splits that I know of. This is more powering than Jim Jones and his cult. I can't believe how people can be so blind and deaf about what is going on in these churches. They are so wrapped up in being entertained.
Donnie,

Yes, we definitely should REJECT Controversial and Unnecessary Changes!


Thank you for your words of encouragement.

I applaud you, and certain others wonderful members, who have diligently defended the Lord's Church against those who seek to destroy it on this site.

Those who have found it not robbery of themselves to dedicate their time and efforts to defend the Lord's Church against the wiles of Satan and his soldiers.

God bless you for the excellent job that you do on a daily basis.

Please continue to fight the good fight of faith because you are a most able soldier of God.



You were absolutely correct when you suggested the following:

I wonder if concentrating on an issue [e.g., men lifting up 'holy hands'] among many issues is a good example of the Delphi Technique. The arguments for it, including the highly misunderstood and changed-meaning of "the law of silence" [" that it's OK when the Scripture does NOT say "NOT TO"] are very weak


You hit the nail right-on-the-head with that statement!

One of the techniques that Chris and basically all Change agents use is to pick a topic that seems to be a weak issue like "lifting holy hands".

That tactic is taken right from the "17 techniques of Truth Suppression" ( technique # 4 ) listed below.

"Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges".

This technique is used a great deal of the time by the various "Change Agents" and "plants" on this very site!

Read the list and re-visit various curious postings that are here on this site.

You will see many of these techniques being employed by these "plants",
especially Chris and Lance above.

I just sit back and wonder how anyone can stoop so low as to deal with the Lord's Church in such a disgraceful manner.

But the Word of God said this would happen. I guess we should not be too surprised.


There's a wealth of information on this site that all members of the church need to know
Including:
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression by DCDave

The list is using "Governments" for an example, but as you have seen demonstrated on this site, these techniques work also with "Churches".

(Just substitute the word CHURCH in place of the word GOVERNMENT and you will see how Truth Suppression is being used by the many Change Agents who frequent this site!)

Truth Suppression is part of the "DELPHI TECHNIQUE".

Thanks again and God bless!

Here's a link to sire:http://www.iror.org/delphi_info.asp

Strong, credible allegations of high-level criminal activity can bring down a government. When the government lacks an effective, fact-based defense, other techniques must be employed. The success of these techniques depends heavily upon a cooperative, compliant press and a mere token opposition party.

1. Dummy up. If it's not reported, if it's not news, it didn't happen.

2. Wax indignant. This is also known as the "How dare you?" gambit.

3. Characterize the charges as "rumors" or, better yet, "wild rumors". If, in spite of the news blackout, the public is still able to learn about the suspicious facts, it can only be through "rumors." (If they tend to believe the "rumors" it must be because they are simply "paranoid" or "hysterical.")

4. Knock down straw men. Deal only with the weakest aspects of the weakest charges. Even better, create your own straw men. Make up wild rumors (or plant false stories) and give them lead play when you appear to debunk all the charges, real and fanciful alike.

5. Call the skeptics names like "conspiracy theorist," "nutcase," "ranter," "kook," "crackpot," and, of course, "rumor monger." Be sure, too, to use heavily loaded verbs and adjectives when characterizing their charges and defending the "more reasonable" government and its defenders. You must then carefully avoid fair and open debate with any of the people you have thus maligned. For insurance, set up your own "skeptics" to shoot down.

6. Impugn motives. Attempt to marginalize the critics by suggesting strongly that they are not really interested in the truth but are simply pursuing a partisan political agenda or are out to make money (compared to over-compensated adherents to the government line who, presumably, are not).

7. Invoke authority. Here the controlled press and the sham opposition can be very useful.

8. Dismiss the charges as "old news."

9. Come half-clean. This is also known as "confession and avoidance" or "taking the limited hangout route." This way, you create the impression of candor and honesty while you admit only to relatively harmless, less-than-criminal "mistakes." This stratagem often requires the embrace of a fall-back position quite different from the one originally taken. With effective damage control, the fall-back position need only be peddled by stooge skeptics to carefully limited markets.

10. Characterize the crimes as impossibly complex and the truth as ultimately unknowable.

11. Reason backward, using the deductive method with a vengeance. With thoroughly rigorous deduction, troublesome evidence is irrelevant. E.g. We have a completely free press. If evidence exists that the Vince Foster "suicide" note was forged, they would have reported it. They haven't reported it so there is no such evidence. Another variation on this theme involves the likelihood of a conspiracy leaker and a press who would report the leak.

12. Require the skeptics to solve the crime completely. E.g. If Foster was murdered, who did it and why?

13. Change the subject. This technique includes creating and/or publicizing distractions.

14. Lightly report incriminating facts, and then make nothing of them. This is sometimes referred to as "bump and run" reporting.

15. Baldly and brazenly lie. A favorite way of doing this is to attribute the "facts" furnished the public to a plausible-sounding, but anonymous, source.

16. Expanding further on numbers 4 and 5 (e and f), have your own stooges "expose" scandals and champion popular causes. Their job is to pre-empt real opponents and to play 99-yard football. A variation is to pay rich people for the job who will pretend to spend their own money.

17. Flood the Internet with agents. This is the answer to the question, "What could possibly motivate a person to spend hour upon hour on Internet news groups defending the government and/or the press and harassing genuine critics?" Don't the authorities have defenders enough in all the newspapers, magazines, radio, and television? One would think refusing to print critical letters and screening out serious callers or dumping them from radio talk shows would be control enough, but, obviously, it is not.


Ti:1:10: For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Ti:1:11: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Ti:1:13: This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Ti:1:14: Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Ti:1:15: Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
Ti:1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Ti:2:1: But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Ti:2:13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Ti:2:15: These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


In Jesus's Name
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