Bill
Bill

November 4th, 2015, 5:23 am #111

As you can see, Bill is a mind reader. I would advise you to be very careful about what you don't think about: the truth will come out.

Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb. 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


g1567. ekzeteo, ek-zay-teh´-o; from 1537 and 2212; to search out, i.e. (figuratively)investigate, crave, demand, (by Hebraism) worship: — en- (re-)quire, seek after (carefully, diligently).

If someone gave me the instructions for dismantling an atomic bomb I would not question each step to DECIDE what is a FATAL step. Bill would! A disciple of Christ never needs to ask whether his self-willed "worship act" is a salvation issue. Especially if one had read Jesus say that the kingdom does not come with observation meaning religious rituals not related to the one-piece pattern of SKHOLE they would KNOW the ISSURES. If you don't care enough to read the very best that is probably a MARK of being OF the World and Jesus won't pray for you: that probably means that the Father won't confess you. God hides from the wise or SOPHISTS: rhetoricians, singers or instrument players as religious acts. Then it doesn't matter whether you sing silly sentimental poetry which, says Plato, produces Gender Bleed.

Maybe Bill or some scholar would make us a list of Salvashun Issures so we don't go there.

Being the "mind reader" that Ken thinks I am, I do believe that hymn-singing is not one of those salvation issues we need to worry about.
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Rocky
Rocky

November 4th, 2015, 10:15 am #112

I see some possibility of rapprochement between Rocnar and Ken. Rocnar believes that singing and praying are a single action.

Ken may believe that singing and reading the Bible should be the same, somehow.

These two need to talk with one another.



A friend of a friend said Donnie and Jason shut down the Cracker Barrel and moved on to the Waffle House. A time of healing?



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Rocky
Rocky

November 4th, 2015, 11:36 am #113

I spend all my time taking care of my long hair that I don't have time to cook.
"I spend all my time taking care of my long hair that I don't have time to cook."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm just here to help! It's really a snap.







Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 4th, 2015, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rocky
Rocky

November 4th, 2015, 1:50 pm #114

Being the "mind reader" that Ken thinks I am, I do believe that hymn-singing is not one of those salvation issues we need to worry about.
Just got the email suggesting that I move on. Maybe I do need to reflect on some of my actions.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 4th, 2015, 5:14 pm #115

Just checking in from Well House. Hope all is well, I miss you guys!



[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Jason, your ID, please? So, when was the last time you posted?[/color]
Ken may believe that singing and reading the Bible should be the same, somehow.

Ken believes that ancient singing never meant what we call TUNEFULNESS. Listen to Muslims or Jewish Chanter. A Jewish rabbi noted that to the oriental mind western singing and especially "churchy" styles sounds like screeching, screaming or howling: as my nerves experienced years of it I can say the same thing. That's why you will never sucker too many to come out, buy the ticket and listen to a thousand people singing with four different voices, with four different sets of words, to four different tunes, at four different time.

When all Scripture beginning with the exclusion of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric" when you assemble to REST, READ AND REHEARSE the WORD.

And there is not even a example of Jesus or the churches in Paul's letter ever ENGAGED is singing.

And Paul commands SPEAKING psalms, hymns and spiritual songs for EDUCATION, logic and the texts puts both ODE and PSALLO which is never a melody word IN THE HEART.

And LEXIS as a form of LOGOS is recorded to be the opposite of ODE.

And the Word or LOGOS permits speaking or reading but is the OPPOSITE to Rhetoric, personal examples, personal experiences, singing, playing or acting. And it excludes METER or POETRY which means our work including COMPOSING poemes or songs.

And there is no recorde of singing as tunefulness permitted to be IMPOSED before permitted by John Calvin. The confiscated cathedrals belonged to the state and they turned them over to composers and musical performances. The people were hooked and demanded singing in the assembly. If we can pin a date on people ADDING singing to enhance the SKHOLE then we can probably say that if anyone had any Biblical authority they would have used it. Instead, the view is that it was added for entertainment reasons.

And none of the commanded text includes METER (spirit without metron includes meter so that Jesus SPAKE the Word and never once synagogued or went out to preach and SANG.)

And Alexander Campbellas song book contained no notes and were sung to about 5 simple unison melodies until it was appropriated by Standard Publishing. Someone noted that singing was imposed by PUBLISHERS and not by an Biblical command, example or remote inference. And so goes almost all religious division.

And Paul always spoke using parallelism.

And no one mixed up about ACappella singing with authority from Scripture and instrumentalists justifying sowing discord based on the command to sing and play psalms EVER in wild imagination intends to us the BIBLICAL or "that which is written for our LEARNING" songs. There would be some redeeming value if after 18 years of being churched our youth could know at least ONE Biblical Psalm: they were not written for "worship" but for education since being in five books somewhat follow the NOT COMMANDED Civil-Military-Clergy complex.

ACappella is not the STYLE or Organum or harmony (speaking the same things) but is a legalistic end-run to sound ORGANISH without violating a LAW.

Acts 15:21 For Moses
of old time
hath in every city
them that PREACH him,
being READ in the synagogues
every sabbath day




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Scripture
Scripture

November 4th, 2015, 8:17 pm #116

So then, at the very least, singing [however perverted it may be, according to Ken] as it is practiced should probably be limited to just 5 or 10 minutes, and the reading of scripture expanded to 15 or 20 minutes, and I would assume passages should be read in series--such as five or 10 chapters from the Gospels, Epistles, or prophets. Any melodies should be simple, and in unison, with scripture-contents circumscribed on just a few popular melodies--say for example, "Mary had a little lamb" [I'm not making fun].

Then there should be no smooth rhetoric, but some very straightforward, and practical, discourses about Christian living. Clergy, CEOs, military officials, and ordained ministers should be kept at a minimum. Get some well-respected (above reproach) elderly men to give a short explanation of any passages read.

Politics should be kept out since these are part of "CIVIL/MILITARY/CLERGY" complex. I think this might also be an improvement since the church is being damaged by taking unscientific and political views, which many of the citizens are rejecting, and so they reject the church.

Is this the church of tomorrow, or yesterday?

Actually this format might really be an improvement over what we have now.

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Joined: August 27th, 2015, 11:28 pm

November 4th, 2015, 8:57 pm #117

Ken may believe that singing and reading the Bible should be the same, somehow.

Ken believes that ancient singing never meant what we call TUNEFULNESS. Listen to Muslims or Jewish Chanter. A Jewish rabbi noted that to the oriental mind western singing and especially "churchy" styles sounds like screeching, screaming or howling: as my nerves experienced years of it I can say the same thing. That's why you will never sucker too many to come out, buy the ticket and listen to a thousand people singing with four different voices, with four different sets of words, to four different tunes, at four different time.

When all Scripture beginning with the exclusion of "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric" when you assemble to REST, READ AND REHEARSE the WORD.

And there is not even a example of Jesus or the churches in Paul's letter ever ENGAGED is singing.

And Paul commands SPEAKING psalms, hymns and spiritual songs for EDUCATION, logic and the texts puts both ODE and PSALLO which is never a melody word IN THE HEART.

And LEXIS as a form of LOGOS is recorded to be the opposite of ODE.

And the Word or LOGOS permits speaking or reading but is the OPPOSITE to Rhetoric, personal examples, personal experiences, singing, playing or acting. And it excludes METER or POETRY which means our work including COMPOSING poemes or songs.

And there is no recorde of singing as tunefulness permitted to be IMPOSED before permitted by John Calvin. The confiscated cathedrals belonged to the state and they turned them over to composers and musical performances. The people were hooked and demanded singing in the assembly. If we can pin a date on people ADDING singing to enhance the SKHOLE then we can probably say that if anyone had any Biblical authority they would have used it. Instead, the view is that it was added for entertainment reasons.

And none of the commanded text includes METER (spirit without metron includes meter so that Jesus SPAKE the Word and never once synagogued or went out to preach and SANG.)

And Alexander Campbellas song book contained no notes and were sung to about 5 simple unison melodies until it was appropriated by Standard Publishing. Someone noted that singing was imposed by PUBLISHERS and not by an Biblical command, example or remote inference. And so goes almost all religious division.

And Paul always spoke using parallelism.

And no one mixed up about ACappella singing with authority from Scripture and instrumentalists justifying sowing discord based on the command to sing and play psalms EVER in wild imagination intends to us the BIBLICAL or "that which is written for our LEARNING" songs. There would be some redeeming value if after 18 years of being churched our youth could know at least ONE Biblical Psalm: they were not written for "worship" but for education since being in five books somewhat follow the NOT COMMANDED Civil-Military-Clergy complex.

ACappella is not the STYLE or Organum or harmony (speaking the same things) but is a legalistic end-run to sound ORGANISH without violating a LAW.

Acts 15:21 For Moses
of old time
hath in every city
them that PREACH him,
being READ in the synagogues
every sabbath day




Bill, you get a stock answer to that question because we are warned that it is not our business to say who is going to hell or heaven. We are told 1Tim. 1:20, to turn a sinner over to Satan, so we do have to make "judgements" in some instances. Hopefully, the sinner will learn his lesson and come back to the fold.

Ken, has the Church of Christ (in the USA) always had singing. Or was it subjected to change agents, like it has been to IM. I liked the statement you made about the legalistic end run around the singing issue.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 4th, 2015, 10:22 pm #118

I go back pre located preachers other than in the big city churches. The elders were APT and did the teaching. We were not one-cuppers but two-gllassers and an elder made the WINE. Bible class was important and my first recited memory verse given me by my mother (c. 1937is) was:

Prov. 22:1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.

The singing was pretty simple with little rush and hustle to get our part admired.

The Jubilee Attack which began about 1987 was exactly 100 years after the Instrumentalists discovered "psallo" and launched the attack against churches of Christ which would not Join the "society and organ party."

The Shelly and others was that "The only purpose of church is to Worship." By that they meant to turn the assembly into enhanced "acts" which proves that they were trying to earn something. That began the rise of the "worship team" which according to Shelly could lead the worshippers into the presence of God. Elders became "shepherds only" by which they meant that the elders were to "shepherd" the senior pulpit preaching pastor person. And the elders just slowly faded away.

That stopped what I remember as a huge effort to be a SCHOOL of the Word and I never heard a preacher huffing and puffing and speaking about his opinions and his experiences. A local preacher got no "responses", went to the back of the building, then stalked up and claimed that when HE PREACHED THAT sermon at some place he got x responses: so we gonna sing some more.

The presbyterians had a PSALM Book something which contained only the Biblical psalms but set to a very simple melody.

http://www.laudemont.org/a-stp.htm

I can't certify this paper but it explains psalm singing. You will notice that as with Ferguson's book this began as a monastic or clergy practice. Notice that this quote proves that the congregation was never involved in any of the examples: the ccongregation in Solomon's examples were the king, mayor, priests, levites and "stationary men" who represented each tribe. The people were always excluded.

Psalmody in the Reformation

With the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century came the thrust to involve all worshipers, not just the clergy, in the music of worship. But there were differences among the Reformation movements over the type of music that should be used in worship. The German-speaking Lutherans and pietists developed a tradition of hymnody, producing chorales with freely composed devotional texts. They also made greater use of instruments, especially the organ. The French-speaking Calvinists of Geneva held a stricter view of what was acceptable in worship and limited their music to the biblical psalms, New Testament hymns and a few other portions of Scripture. Excluding instruments was a corollary of the Reformed stress on the responsibility of the congregation, as a whole, for the expression of worship instead of trained professionals.


The fact that we can know DATES when congregational singing was imposed with automatic discord proves that they did NOT have any Biblical authority. So, it doesn't matter if they use animal Holocausts music as "a" spirit telling them that God commanded instruments. They have most of church history as not even hallucinating music as suitable.

I believe that the music wars developed only after the civil war when most denominations were split: the northern churches had filled carpetbags and built large buildings. In time the money ran out and musical performances was confessed to be to save the property. A black free Methodists is said to be the first to discover musical performance as a "cash cow."
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 4th, 2015, 10:39 pm #119

So then, at the very least, singing [however perverted it may be, according to Ken] as it is practiced should probably be limited to just 5 or 10 minutes, and the reading of scripture expanded to 15 or 20 minutes, and I would assume passages should be read in series--such as five or 10 chapters from the Gospels, Epistles, or prophets. Any melodies should be simple, and in unison, with scripture-contents circumscribed on just a few popular melodies--say for example, "Mary had a little lamb" [I'm not making fun].

Then there should be no smooth rhetoric, but some very straightforward, and practical, discourses about Christian living. Clergy, CEOs, military officials, and ordained ministers should be kept at a minimum. Get some well-respected (above reproach) elderly men to give a short explanation of any passages read.

Politics should be kept out since these are part of "CIVIL/MILITARY/CLERGY" complex. I think this might also be an improvement since the church is being damaged by taking unscientific and political views, which many of the citizens are rejecting, and so they reject the church.

Is this the church of tomorrow, or yesterday?

Actually this format might really be an improvement over what we have now.

Politics should be kept out since these are part of "CIVIL/MILITARY/CLERGY" complex. I think this might also be an improvement since the church is being damaged by taking unscientific and political views, which many of the citizens are rejecting, and so they reject the church.


People call you "mad" if you quote long passages and define words from the ancient text.

First, creation is OUT of water and standing IN the water: the earth is the fruitful places on the "globe". Seeing it as very old gives glory to God "permitting" Him to have been involved for a long time.

Second, "heaven and earth" identified types of people or even "gods." Moses wrote Genesis AFTER the people fell into instrumental-trinitian idolatry and turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST: the women worshipped the Queen of heaven.

Therefore, Moses wrote a corrected version documented on clay tablets. The gods did not make man out of mud and the blood of an ugly god to be the SLAVES of the gods. The gods, of course were the priests, musicians, cooks, exorcists, prophesiers and even prostitutes. On the other hand, Jehovah God is the ONE TRUE God Who serves mankind. Revelation 17f defines the rise of the Babylonian goddess worship probably in a church near you.

Nothing has been so destructive in Churches of Christ as to demand as creed that God created the entire universe just 6,000 years ago. Or that man walked with Dinosaurs in that time span. Moses writes about the "elohim" or gods of Sumer who brought the free civiliaztion to an end and darkness or ignorance when they began to collect everone as slaves of the Temple-State. Here is a picture of the Jerusalem Temple after God turned the Jews over to Babylonianism: the messianic Jews still influencing universities and churches follow the Babylonian Talmud.

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November 4th, 2015, 10:42 pm #120

I go back pre located preachers other than in the big city churches. The elders were APT and did the teaching. We were not one-cuppers but two-gllassers and an elder made the WINE. Bible class was important and my first recited memory verse given me by my mother (c. 1937is) was:

Prov. 22:1 A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold.

The singing was pretty simple with little rush and hustle to get our part admired.

The Jubilee Attack which began about 1987 was exactly 100 years after the Instrumentalists discovered "psallo" and launched the attack against churches of Christ which would not Join the "society and organ party."

The Shelly and others was that "The only purpose of church is to Worship." By that they meant to turn the assembly into enhanced "acts" which proves that they were trying to earn something. That began the rise of the "worship team" which according to Shelly could lead the worshippers into the presence of God. Elders became "shepherds only" by which they meant that the elders were to "shepherd" the senior pulpit preaching pastor person. And the elders just slowly faded away.

That stopped what I remember as a huge effort to be a SCHOOL of the Word and I never heard a preacher huffing and puffing and speaking about his opinions and his experiences. A local preacher got no "responses", went to the back of the building, then stalked up and claimed that when HE PREACHED THAT sermon at some place he got x responses: so we gonna sing some more.

The presbyterians had a PSALM Book something which contained only the Biblical psalms but set to a very simple melody.

http://www.laudemont.org/a-stp.htm

I can't certify this paper but it explains psalm singing. You will notice that as with Ferguson's book this began as a monastic or clergy practice. Notice that this quote proves that the congregation was never involved in any of the examples: the ccongregation in Solomon's examples were the king, mayor, priests, levites and "stationary men" who represented each tribe. The people were always excluded.

Psalmody in the Reformation

With the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century came the thrust to involve all worshipers, not just the clergy, in the music of worship. But there were differences among the Reformation movements over the type of music that should be used in worship. The German-speaking Lutherans and pietists developed a tradition of hymnody, producing chorales with freely composed devotional texts. They also made greater use of instruments, especially the organ. The French-speaking Calvinists of Geneva held a stricter view of what was acceptable in worship and limited their music to the biblical psalms, New Testament hymns and a few other portions of Scripture. Excluding instruments was a corollary of the Reformed stress on the responsibility of the congregation, as a whole, for the expression of worship instead of trained professionals.


The fact that we can know DATES when congregational singing was imposed with automatic discord proves that they did NOT have any Biblical authority. So, it doesn't matter if they use animal Holocausts music as "a" spirit telling them that God commanded instruments. They have most of church history as not even hallucinating music as suitable.

I believe that the music wars developed only after the civil war when most denominations were split: the northern churches had filled carpetbags and built large buildings. In time the money ran out and musical performances was confessed to be to save the property. A black free Methodists is said to be the first to discover musical performance as a "cash cow."
"The only purpose of the church is to worship" is an idea that has created a church that many don't want to go to.

Every song seems to be a praise song, such that it grates on your nerves.

No songs on Christian living, no lists of sins of the flesh. No doctrine. Little truth.

Just tell God and Christ that you are worshipping them--forget any moral life.
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